Bucs most memorable season

BillyCarpenter1 · 07-08-2003, 04:12 PM

[/quote:8b1468f95d]Still waiting for that reality you talk of. Look at your list, it\'s ALL wishfull thinking.

1. Explain how they can\'t be better other than your keen insight \"probably had the best year it\'s ever going to have\"

2. I though Keyshawn & McCardell were starters for YEARS on other teams. Silly me. :exclam:

3. How about a comment? The Bucs run game DID improve in the biggest games of the year, how is it going to get worse? You backpeddled on that one.

4. Do you even know about Brad record as a passer in the NFC last year AND in the history of the NFL? AB can only hope to come close to his accomplishments when he is in the league as long as Brad. And again you skirted around the OL statement with a backpeddling uninformed Brad Johnson remark

5. Nice banter and shows me how well you know and debate real football talk.

[/quote:8b1468f95d]

1. The same way your telling me it\'s going to be so much better. How much better would you say they are going to be:
Multiple Choice:
A. 100%
B. 75%
C. 50%
D. 25%
I know yours is based off facts.........Right???

2. Your right. You have 2 starters that might could start for other teams. Very Impressive.

3. Let\'s see......One running back on the way to prison and the other has been one of the biggest busts as a running back so far..........Very Impressive.

4. Two words............Role Player.

5. Nice banter and shows me how well you know and debate football talk.

Batwood · 07-08-2003, 04:23 PM

Well with that logic, you can\'t tell me the Saints will be any better either. It\'s all based on perception of the improvements.

But one fact is there, The Bucs ARE the Best in the NFL right now and they did that in a year they were learning the offense. The Saints are HOPING to be better.

Like many have said, last year was the WORST the bucs offense will be under Gruden, and we won it all. The defense is completely intact with Rudd replacing Singleton (upgrade) and Dwight replacing Dex (wash).

Still don\'t see how they can get worse without injury.

BillyCarpenter1 · 07-08-2003, 04:40 PM

But one fact is there, The Bucs ARE the Best in the NFL right now and they did that in a year they were learning the offense. The Saints are HOPING to be bette

Let me explain something to you that is real.

The Bucs won the 2002 championship. This is 2003. IT\'S OVER!!!

All you have are bragging rights for last year. There have been no games played this year for the Bucs to have proved they are the best team in 2003.

Yeah, Yeah, I know........until further notice the Bucs are the champs. I got it.

You like facts so here\'s one for you.

Fact: Nothing the Bucs did last year is going to mean anything this year.

I know it\'s hard to talk Saint/Bucs match-up when we beat you twice and it\'s nice to be able to say: Yeah but we won the Superbowl, so the Saints wins were irrelevant, but if you want to have a real football debate(which obviously you don\'t) everything you say is a moot point.

Batwood,

That last post? I expected so much more. You letting Bucs fans down everywhere.

[Edited on 8/7/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

lumm0x · 07-08-2003, 05:23 PM

Fact: Nothing the Bucs did last year is going to mean anything this year.

Not entirely correct. By this I mean that they have become a team that will be taken much more serious by thataccomplishment. The Bucs had been generating a stigma that they couldn\'t win in the cold and that for all the regular season success, that was all there would be. Philly and Green Bay were probably drooling to see the Bucs in January. Not any more. Teams that used to bring the A game may need the A+ game.

As for the Bucs being better, here\'s my take:
1) Defense- I agree Rudd is an upgrade (keep the helmet on buddy). Dwight, a wash a best, no problem there. Sapp-his distractions could be a wash if McFarland is healthy. Keeping Monte Kiffin is the only thing that makes me agree they will be as good as last year. I don\'t think they can or will be better.
2-4) Offense- Thomas Jones is no upgrade over Pittman, but neither is a good RB. If Gruden can turn any of the other backs into a Garner clone then your running game doesn\'t get much respect, but Gruden teams don\'t need 1000 yrd rushers. They thrive on the short passing that makes up for that. I think the O-Line is patchwork at best and will only get exploited as the season moves on. The offense will be more consistent over the course of the year, but the production will never be top 10. I don\'t buy into the idea that defenses will start to pick up on Gruden\'s offense and defend it better. Even before last year he showed a nice ability to adjust before defenses force him to. He was always one step ahead in play calling. The problem, he has a poor talent base to work with and I think he has maximized the overachieving in his starters. Most of the offense is entering the declining years and I also don\'t buy that he will make Gannon/Rice/Brown out of Johnson/Johnson/McCardell. Unlike the Raider trio, it is more likely these three will succumb to the age factor, especially Brad Johnson who has always and will again take a pounding this year.
3) You have the schedule of death. You start hard, get no back to back easy ones to get momemtum, and finish tough too. Defending the title is often as hard as getting it.

This will be a blood and guts year for everyone in the NFC South. I see it coming down to motivation. Can Gruden re-motivate this team or do the Sainst and Falcons gain ground on a team that is still reminiscing?

ssmitty · 07-08-2003, 06:07 PM

ye gads, gasp, cough, hack,hack,hack, weeezzzzzzzzzzzz..........buck fans talking football? when i see an elephant fly............FLASH , this just in from black and gold, heavy rumors continue to swirl around the beatings the saints gave the bucks last year......though some of the team is just beginning to realize they won the super bowl months ago, the swelling has yet to go down on the man handling da saints dished out to the bucs.........HEAVY RUMORS continue to fly around the saints locker room from all players that they can\'t wait to see their ******* again.....they remain \"pumped up\" for a good reason........deadwood, i\'ll give you this, b johnson will not make the entire season this yr, he\'ll go out with one or more breaks, or concussion..........and there goes your season, but, be glad, once all the cobwebs go away, at least the remaining players will remember,( through councelling and therapy) that they did win a s. b..........i not only look for the saints to sweep, but humiliate the bucks this yr with surprises for the falcons and panthers as well........talk is cheap so i put my money where my mouth is......bucker backed down, ( a show of somewhat intelligence) how about you? smitty

Batwood · 07-09-2003, 08:14 AM

lumm0x

That was the most honest and well thought response I\'ve seen yet. I was expecting more rantings and insults (you had some good zingers before

)

Your points are pretty right on, yes it will be a brutal schedule based on last year but that always seems to be the problem with strength of schedule, they can only base it on last year. Sometimes teams you expect to be good, stink it up and vice-versa.

The O-line was banged up early last year and had new faces along with learning new schemes, so I believe the upgrades in FA will be the only question mark, the others will be better from finally getting into year two under a system.

Thomas Jones is definately a crap-shoot, could be a breakout year, could be a flop. But I do like the idea of Stecker getting in there more, all he seems to do is get big gains when he touches the ball. The hybrid WCO Gruden runs does not need a 1000 yd runner like you stated but needs a runner good at catching in the open and moving the chains, that is something Alstott & stecker are good at and usually it\'s Keyshawn making key blocks on those plays also..

Don\'t forget about Jurivicious, he is ready for a break out year IMO and in Grudens (from past article). Keyshawn, McCardell & Jurivisious are all big recievers that do not need to be fast but can make clutch plays on 3dr down. Brad is still underatted and proven tough and has a few years left that will be his best IMO as the offense gets more familiar with the plays. I think Chris Simms will be ready by the time Brad steps down and he has the luxury of learning the right way and not being forced into the fire. Again being in year two of the offense is a huge advantage, just look at Gruden\'s trake record as an OC & HC in year two of his previous stints (Philly & Oakland). But right now it\'s all speculation anyway.

And I find it ironic that BillyCarpenter states \"Fact: Nothing the Bucs did last year is going to mean anything this year\" but then in the same post touts the Saints sweep of last year.

So which one is it Billy? Does last year mean anything? or is it that it only means something when talking about the Saints wins?

Hypocracy is not a good tactic.

ssmitty,
Diddn\'t know the Saints played the Milwalkee Bucks last year

BillyCarpenter1 · 07-09-2003, 08:29 AM

l

So which one is it Billy? Does last year mean anything? or is it that it only means something when talking about the Saints wins? Hypocracy is not a good tactic.

When I\'m invited to a gun fight I don\'t bring a knife. I bring a gun. What I mean is that you bring is your \"optimistic\" Bucs talk, \" We\'re fast, pretty, and can\'t possibly be beat\" attitude, then I must counter with the same logic.

The reason I say the Saints will sweep the Bucs is because, simply put, we match up well against you guys.

The reason I say the Bucs will not repeat is because recent history dictates so.

Why is it that you agree with LummOx when he said your defense will be no better this year and your running game is no good, but when I said the same thing, I was being a hater?

[Edited on 9/7/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

BucNup · 07-09-2003, 08:59 AM

Very good post lumm0x,

I think what confuses me when it comes to your Billy is that you tell us to forget about last year, but then you throw your sweeping of us in our face. I just read your post about how you feel the Saint match-up well against the Bucs. But I don\'t buy it. I\'ll take my chances with every team in the league, if I knew that each game would come down to 1 or 2 plays. This is exactly what happened in both of the Bucs v. Saints game.

You simply came out on top.

Now as for the Bucs and what to expect? It\'s going to start with the OL. An OL that made improvements and turned it on strong at the end. That has me filled with hope, despite who gets the nod at RB.....

IF our OL can dictate the flow of a football game, then we have that many more weapons to use. Gruden buckled down and worked with what he had last year. The results were outstanding.

We\'ve made some additons on the OL, LB, Secondary, Special Teams, and RB; all while hold the core in place. That has to have Bucs fans feeling good about the upcoming season, even without thinking about all of the events surrounding the 2002 season.

It must also be acknowledged that this is the second go-round with the O....

No one will admit it; but the guys were stressed out trying to find out where to go for most of last year. We had a few formations, flipped it left and right, depended on the quick slant, most in part due to a horrid OL performance; all while getting better each week.

Many people didn\'t see it that way, or saw it yet failed to realize what was going on. We saw a watered down version of the Gruden O. Hell, he knows the O so well, he ran the drills during the SB practices. Telling guys EXACTLY where to be and when to be there; but the Raiders couldn\'t do the same? Come on......

He added a few wrinkles here and there and camoflauged it at the right times....

This year we should see an offense that made the Bucs offer up those 2 1st rounders, 2 2nd rounders and 8 million in cash.....

Now the Bucs haven\'t had a storied past; but this Gruden deal will go down in the history books flaming white hot. I believe it\'s all just beginning.......

PS: Just for you smitty http://www.online-betting-guide.co.uk/ ENJOY!

[Edited on 9/7/2003 by BucNup]

BillyCarpenter1 · 07-09-2003, 09:25 AM

I think what confuses me when it comes to your Billy is that you tell us to forget about last year, ]

You think your confused. I am too, when you say that because the Bucs hoisted the trophy in the air, that the 2 Saints wins became meaningless??

You keep talking about how Grudens system is going to be so much better this year. While coaching plays an important part in the success of any team, I\'m a firm beleiver that the players ultimately decide the game.

The Bucs had a poor draft simply because of what you lost for hiring Gruden. You picked up some guys, none of which anyone execpt the most optimistic Bucs fan (BucNup, Batwood) expect to have a big impact this year.

Realistically speaking, you might or might not have improved a Superbowl winning team.

I think anyone that thinks the Bucs will repeat this year says that it will be the defense that must once again bear the burden of carring the team on it\'s shoulders, because the offense remains suspect.

I can be just like you. I can keep it real on one post and give a biased one on the next. But don\'t try to make everyone think that you don\'t give us highly biased statements most of the time.

lumm0x · 07-09-2003, 10:00 AM

Just to clarify though, I\'m not trying to get kudos from a couple of Bucs fans.....you\'re still getting your asses handed to you this year.....twice I may add!

07-08-2003, 04:12 PM	#31
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Bucs most memorable season [/quote:8b1468f95d]Still waiting for that reality you talk of. Look at your list, it\'s ALL wishfull thinking. 1. Explain how they can\'t be better other than your keen insight \"probably had the best year it\'s ever going to have\" 2. I though Keyshawn & McCardell were starters for YEARS on other teams. Silly me. :exclam: 3. How about a comment? The Bucs run game DID improve in the biggest games of the year, how is it going to get worse? You backpeddled on that one. 4. Do you even know about Brad record as a passer in the NFC last year AND in the history of the NFL? AB can only hope to come close to his accomplishments when he is in the league as long as Brad. And again you skirted around the OL statement with a backpeddling uninformed Brad Johnson remark 5. Nice banter and shows me how well you know and debate real football talk. [/quote:8b1468f95d] 1. The same way your telling me it\'s going to be so much better. How much better would you say they are going to be: Multiple Choice: A. 100% B. 75% C. 50% D. 25% I know yours is based off facts.........Right??? 2. Your right. You have 2 starters that might could start for other teams. Very Impressive. 3. Let\'s see......One running back on the way to prison and the other has been one of the biggest busts as a running back so far..........Very Impressive. 4. Two words............Role Player. 5. Nice banter and shows me how well you know and debate football talk.
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

07-08-2003, 04:23 PM	#32
Batwood Registered Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 55	Bucs most memorable season Well with that logic, you can\'t tell me the Saints will be any better either. It\'s all based on perception of the improvements. But one fact is there, The Bucs ARE the Best in the NFL right now and they did that in a year they were learning the offense. The Saints are HOPING to be better. Like many have said, last year was the WORST the bucs offense will be under Gruden, and we won it all. The defense is completely intact with Rudd replacing Singleton (upgrade) and Dwight replacing Dex (wash). Still don\'t see how they can get worse without injury.
Batwood Registered Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 55	\"I don\'t think he has many tools on offense that he actually likes,\" says Randy Mueller, former Saints GM. Wait until he gets his own players. Watch out.\" http://i.tsn.com/i/o/books/covers/su...rbowlcover.gif

07-08-2003, 04:40 PM	#33
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Bucs most memorable season But one fact is there, The Bucs ARE the Best in the NFL right now and they did that in a year they were learning the offense. The Saints are HOPING to be bette Let me explain something to you that is real. The Bucs won the 2002 championship. This is 2003. IT\'S OVER!!! All you have are bragging rights for last year. There have been no games played this year for the Bucs to have proved they are the best team in 2003. Yeah, Yeah, I know........until further notice the Bucs are the champs. I got it. You like facts so here\'s one for you. Fact: Nothing the Bucs did last year is going to mean anything this year. I know it\'s hard to talk Saint/Bucs match-up when we beat you twice and it\'s nice to be able to say: Yeah but we won the Superbowl, so the Saints wins were irrelevant, but if you want to have a real football debate(which obviously you don\'t) everything you say is a moot point. Batwood, That last post? I expected so much more. You letting Bucs fans down everywhere. [Edited on 8/7/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

07-08-2003, 05:23 PM	#34
lumm0x Resident antediluvian Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,026	Bucs most memorable season Fact: Nothing the Bucs did last year is going to mean anything this year. Not entirely correct. By this I mean that they have become a team that will be taken much more serious by thataccomplishment. The Bucs had been generating a stigma that they couldn\'t win in the cold and that for all the regular season success, that was all there would be. Philly and Green Bay were probably drooling to see the Bucs in January. Not any more. Teams that used to bring the A game may need the A+ game. As for the Bucs being better, here\'s my take: 1) Defense- I agree Rudd is an upgrade (keep the helmet on buddy). Dwight, a wash a best, no problem there. Sapp-his distractions could be a wash if McFarland is healthy. Keeping Monte Kiffin is the only thing that makes me agree they will be as good as last year. I don\'t think they can or will be better. 2-4) Offense- Thomas Jones is no upgrade over Pittman, but neither is a good RB. If Gruden can turn any of the other backs into a Garner clone then your running game doesn\'t get much respect, but Gruden teams don\'t need 1000 yrd rushers. They thrive on the short passing that makes up for that. I think the O-Line is patchwork at best and will only get exploited as the season moves on. The offense will be more consistent over the course of the year, but the production will never be top 10. I don\'t buy into the idea that defenses will start to pick up on Gruden\'s offense and defend it better. Even before last year he showed a nice ability to adjust before defenses force him to. He was always one step ahead in play calling. The problem, he has a poor talent base to work with and I think he has maximized the overachieving in his starters. Most of the offense is entering the declining years and I also don\'t buy that he will make Gannon/Rice/Brown out of Johnson/Johnson/McCardell. Unlike the Raider trio, it is more likely these three will succumb to the age factor, especially Brad Johnson who has always and will again take a pounding this year. 3) You have the schedule of death. You start hard, get no back to back easy ones to get momemtum, and finish tough too. Defending the title is often as hard as getting it. This will be a blood and guts year for everyone in the NFC South. I see it coming down to motivation. Can Gruden re-motivate this team or do the Sainst and Falcons gain ground on a team that is still reminiscing?

07-08-2003, 06:07 PM	#35
ssmitty 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,879	Bucs most memorable season ye gads, gasp, cough, hack,hack,hack, weeezzzzzzzzzzzz..........buck fans talking football? when i see an elephant fly............FLASH , this just in from black and gold, heavy rumors continue to swirl around the beatings the saints gave the bucks last year......though some of the team is just beginning to realize they won the super bowl months ago, the swelling has yet to go down on the man handling da saints dished out to the bucs.........HEAVY RUMORS continue to fly around the saints locker room from all players that they can\'t wait to see their ******* again.....they remain \"pumped up\" for a good reason........deadwood, i\'ll give you this, b johnson will not make the entire season this yr, he\'ll go out with one or more breaks, or concussion..........and there goes your season, but, be glad, once all the cobwebs go away, at least the remaining players will remember,( through councelling and therapy) that they did win a s. b..........i not only look for the saints to sweep, but humiliate the bucks this yr with surprises for the falcons and panthers as well........talk is cheap so i put my money where my mouth is......bucker backed down, ( a show of somewhat intelligence) how about you? smitty
ssmitty 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,879

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07-09-2003, 08:14 AM	#36
Batwood Registered Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 55	Bucs most memorable season lumm0x That was the most honest and well thought response I\'ve seen yet. I was expecting more rantings and insults (you had some good zingers before ) Your points are pretty right on, yes it will be a brutal schedule based on last year but that always seems to be the problem with strength of schedule, they can only base it on last year. Sometimes teams you expect to be good, stink it up and vice-versa. The O-line was banged up early last year and had new faces along with learning new schemes, so I believe the upgrades in FA will be the only question mark, the others will be better from finally getting into year two under a system. Thomas Jones is definately a crap-shoot, could be a breakout year, could be a flop. But I do like the idea of Stecker getting in there more, all he seems to do is get big gains when he touches the ball. The hybrid WCO Gruden runs does not need a 1000 yd runner like you stated but needs a runner good at catching in the open and moving the chains, that is something Alstott & stecker are good at and usually it\'s Keyshawn making key blocks on those plays also.. Don\'t forget about Jurivicious, he is ready for a break out year IMO and in Grudens (from past article). Keyshawn, McCardell & Jurivisious are all big recievers that do not need to be fast but can make clutch plays on 3dr down. Brad is still underatted and proven tough and has a few years left that will be his best IMO as the offense gets more familiar with the plays. I think Chris Simms will be ready by the time Brad steps down and he has the luxury of learning the right way and not being forced into the fire. Again being in year two of the offense is a huge advantage, just look at Gruden\'s trake record as an OC & HC in year two of his previous stints (Philly & Oakland). But right now it\'s all speculation anyway. And I find it ironic that BillyCarpenter states \"Fact: Nothing the Bucs did last year is going to mean anything this year\" but then in the same post touts the Saints sweep of last year. So which one is it Billy? Does last year mean anything? or is it that it only means something when talking about the Saints wins? Hypocracy is not a good tactic. ssmitty, Diddn\'t know the Saints played the Milwalkee Bucks last year
Batwood Registered Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 55	\"I don\'t think he has many tools on offense that he actually likes,\" says Randy Mueller, former Saints GM. Wait until he gets his own players. Watch out.\" http://i.tsn.com/i/o/books/covers/su...rbowlcover.gif

07-09-2003, 08:29 AM	#37
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Bucs most memorable season l So which one is it Billy? Does last year mean anything? or is it that it only means something when talking about the Saints wins? Hypocracy is not a good tactic. When I\'m invited to a gun fight I don\'t bring a knife. I bring a gun. What I mean is that you bring is your \"optimistic\" Bucs talk, \" We\'re fast, pretty, and can\'t possibly be beat\" attitude, then I must counter with the same logic. The reason I say the Saints will sweep the Bucs is because, simply put, we match up well against you guys. The reason I say the Bucs will not repeat is because recent history dictates so. Why is it that you agree with LummOx when he said your defense will be no better this year and your running game is no good, but when I said the same thing, I was being a hater? [Edited on 9/7/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

07-09-2003, 08:59 AM	#38
BucNup 100th Post Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Las Vegas, Nevada Posts: 170	Bucs most memorable season Very good post lumm0x, I think what confuses me when it comes to your Billy is that you tell us to forget about last year, but then you throw your sweeping of us in our face. I just read your post about how you feel the Saint match-up well against the Bucs. But I don\'t buy it. I\'ll take my chances with every team in the league, if I knew that each game would come down to 1 or 2 plays. This is exactly what happened in both of the Bucs v. Saints game. You simply came out on top. Now as for the Bucs and what to expect? It\'s going to start with the OL. An OL that made improvements and turned it on strong at the end. That has me filled with hope, despite who gets the nod at RB..... IF our OL can dictate the flow of a football game, then we have that many more weapons to use. Gruden buckled down and worked with what he had last year. The results were outstanding. We\'ve made some additons on the OL, LB, Secondary, Special Teams, and RB; all while hold the core in place. That has to have Bucs fans feeling good about the upcoming season, even without thinking about all of the events surrounding the 2002 season. It must also be acknowledged that this is the second go-round with the O.... No one will admit it; but the guys were stressed out trying to find out where to go for most of last year. We had a few formations, flipped it left and right, depended on the quick slant, most in part due to a horrid OL performance; all while getting better each week. Many people didn\'t see it that way, or saw it yet failed to realize what was going on. We saw a watered down version of the Gruden O. Hell, he knows the O so well, he ran the drills during the SB practices. Telling guys EXACTLY where to be and when to be there; but the Raiders couldn\'t do the same? Come on...... He added a few wrinkles here and there and camoflauged it at the right times.... This year we should see an offense that made the Bucs offer up those 2 1st rounders, 2 2nd rounders and 8 million in cash..... Now the Bucs haven\'t had a storied past; but this Gruden deal will go down in the history books flaming white hot. I believe it\'s all just beginning....... PS: Just for you smitty http://www.online-betting-guide.co.uk/ ENJOY! [Edited on 9/7/2003 by BucNup]
	Week 9: Saints vs. Bucs http://www.bucnup.com/SBXXXVII.bmp

07-09-2003, 09:25 AM	#39
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Bucs most memorable season I think what confuses me when it comes to your Billy is that you tell us to forget about last year, ] You think your confused. I am too, when you say that because the Bucs hoisted the trophy in the air, that the 2 Saints wins became meaningless?? You keep talking about how Grudens system is going to be so much better this year. While coaching plays an important part in the success of any team, I\'m a firm beleiver that the players ultimately decide the game. The Bucs had a poor draft simply because of what you lost for hiring Gruden. You picked up some guys, none of which anyone execpt the most optimistic Bucs fan (BucNup, Batwood) expect to have a big impact this year. Realistically speaking, you might or might not have improved a Superbowl winning team. I think anyone that thinks the Bucs will repeat this year says that it will be the defense that must once again bear the burden of carring the team on it\'s shoulders, because the offense remains suspect. I can be just like you. I can keep it real on one post and give a biased one on the next. But don\'t try to make everyone think that you don\'t give us highly biased statements most of the time.
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

07-09-2003, 10:00 AM	#40
lumm0x Resident antediluvian Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,026	Bucs most memorable season Just to clarify though, I\'m not trying to get kudos from a couple of Bucs fans.....you\'re still getting your asses handed to you this year.....twice I may add!