My protest letter made the NY Times.......

WhoDat205 · 07-23-2007, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by stockman311

They would make many more fans and probably more money in the long run by suspending Vick now. This is a case of setting a dangerous precident of suspending a player with no prior arrests for being CHARGED with a crime. Once you go down that road any player charged with any crime could be suspended. This will most likely be a situation where Vick faces a year of paid leave. It gets him off the field and out of the public eye and it removes the possibility of suspending a player charged with a crime for the fist time.

Well put, Stockman. Godell already pee-ed in the punch by suspensing Pacman, Henry and Tank for 1/2 to a whole season; which is a move that hamstrung him in the Vick case. If he suspends Vick for the season, Vick's got a case against the league; if he doesn't suspend Vick, (that includes paid leave) the trio above will be releasing the legal hounds on the NFL for unfair treatment.

Please realize that I am not defending Vick's (alleged) actions, or the actions of any of the guys above. I'm just pointing out that Goodell made a "rookie mistake" and checkmated himself and the league.

Euphoria · 07-23-2007, 10:52 AM

Yeah you can't suspend him until there is conviction or a guilty plea.

Pacman and Vick are 2 different situations... one where he has been in trouble and continued to get in trouble and NFL took action. Vick's situation is that he is facing charges and he shouldn't be convited or punished before anyone just claims he did something wrong. If that was the case you better call the FBI and have them do the same thing to Manning before we play the Colts so we can beat them.

bobcat4u2 · 07-23-2007, 12:06 PM

gambling is involved in this mess which could be lifetime ban.pac-man has no convictions and if found guilty of anything he's charged with,he doesn't match vick's charges.vick has already had the " RON MEXICO " herpes delivery, his home fan finger job and his wacky-backy smelling jewelry carrying waterbottle( if you beleive that,he wants you to try to get on his jury ) he more than qualifies for the season suspension on damage to nfl reputation.i agree i wouldn't miss saints game to protest but fans skipping his preseason games would do trick.then again,we'd miss fun of barking at him

ScottyRo · 07-23-2007, 01:46 PM

People wondering why Vick has not been suspended yet by looking at Pacman's suspension are missing the point of Pacman's suspension ENTIRELY.

First of all, the keyword is CRIMINAL. For all the PR nightmares he has created, this is Vick's first CRIMINAL problem. The closest thing that comes into play under this other than the indictment for dog fighting is the funny water bottle, but he was only detained for a few moments in that situation.

Pacman on the other hand, entered the league on probation, has been arrested twice and has been interviewed as a person of interest in criminal investigations up to 10 other times. It is that he has gotten himself into criminal trouble multiple times which brought about his suspension.

Vick's situation is different in that there is only one criminal incident on his sheet. The commissioner has already established that his new policy is aimed at repeat CRIMINAL offenders while first time CRIMINAL offenders will be afforded the luxury of letting due process play out in the courts.

For its actions, PETA is WAAAAY out of line in calling for his suspension based on this indictment. You have to remember that an indictment is one side of the story: the prosecution's side. The defense does not get a chance to rebut any of the testimony or evidence. Prosecutors regularly use very shaky evidence in combination with whatever solid evidence they have to secure these indictments. PETA and many others are acting as if Vick has already been found guilty and are asking for things with total disregard for how it could affect somebody who could be innocent. Don't tell me you KNOW he's guilty. You weren't there. You didn't see anything. If you think he is guilty, you are relying on only one side of the story which includes the testimony of some individuals that you probably wouldn't let in your house.

The thing is, I can't stand Vick. I think he is way overrated and I get sick of hearing about him like he is some great QB or something. Plus, he plays for the Falcons who I hate. However, I am not going to let my disdain for him cloud my judgment on how this situation needs to be treated. I think many of you who are in favor of suspending Vick now would, if being completely honest, admit that your disdain for him as a player and probably as a person (even without the dog fighting allegations) is influencing your decision making when calling for his suspension.

WhoDat205 · 07-23-2007, 02:21 PM

ScottyRo, that was the most well composed, rational, logical and well thought out position I've heard on this board to date.

Well played...

Euphoria · 07-23-2007, 02:32 PM

Scotty Ro...

Great Job.

danr5160 · 07-23-2007, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by ScottyRo

PETA is WAAAAY out of line in calling for his suspension based on this indictment. You have to remember that an indictment is one side of the story: the prosecution's side. The defense does not get a chance to rebut any of the testimony or evidence. Prosecutors regularly use very shaky evidence in combination with whatever solid evidence they have to secure these indictments.

ScottyRo, I agree that's how our country was founded. However, have you actually read the indictment? There are 4 "cooperating witnesses" (granted they are all admitted dogfighter criminals and trying to cop a plea) producing a lot of very, very damning details, and a ton of hard evidence collected on Michael Vick's property. The business (Bad Newz Kennels) was in Vick's name. Some of the bets Vick allegedly paid directly were $tens of thousands, and you know that before the feds handed down the indictment they rationalized the alleged payoffs with transfers from his accounts. So you're right, he hasn't been found guilty, and the defense could still possibly pull off a miracle save. But I would NOT want those charges and that evidence facing me in federal court. This isn't the LA police and prosecutors, this is the FBI. This won't be an OJ circus, this is all business. I'm not ready to hang him, but anybody want to take a bet on the outcome?

stockman311 · 07-23-2007, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by danr5160

I'm not ready to hang him, but anybody want to take a bet on the outcome?

I give him a less than 5% chance. He is most likely off to the pen. You still can't suspend him for a first time offense. If he is found guilty his life as he has known it is over and it should be. But this is not China or the Middle East. Our legal system as messed up as it is sometimes is what seperates us from the animals living in other countries without an "innocent until proven guilty" system.
However, if I were Mike Vick and I was given the opportunity to take a paid leave of absense I would jump on it. There is no way I would subject myself, my organization, and my teamates to the amount of media frenzy and public outcry that is about to descend on Flowery Mound, GA. If he has any selflessness left he should take his paycheck each week and focus on defending himself if he is innocent or making a plea bargain if he is guilty.

CheramieIII · 07-23-2007, 04:23 PM

Damn, I didn't think I would get any response out of this but glad to see it. I am not convicting Michael Vick before he goes to trial. I am only calling for fairness for everyone.

If I was charged with any felony my senior management team at best would suspend me without pay, but more than likely would fire me, period!

Now why should Michael Vick be treated any differently. The team belongs to Mr. Blank and I am sure there is something in Mr. Vicks contract that allows Mr. Blank to release Michael Vick for his conduct. Bird at fans, water bottle at the airport, slamming dogs to the ground and killing them. Yes, I understand the 3rd item is not proven yet, but isn't it Vicks responsibility to keep himself out of those situations, yes it is!

Believe me Vick at best will be suspended pending the outcome by tonight and worse cases scenario will be released by Thursday.

If you were any owner would you pick him up? As for me, NO!

JOESAM2002 · 07-23-2007, 09:46 PM

Here's something I don't understand. At the very least Vick is a liar. I can't see any way in hell he didn't know what was going on on his property unless he's totally brain dead (which is very possible). So if he knew, then what? Lieing isn't a felony I don't think but it sure makes him look guilty. I think Vick has worked himself into this situation and I for one hope he never gets out of it. Yes I am judging him before he officially charged but I don't like him and I don't like anyrhing associated with him.

P.S. Whats bad is, I liked him when he was in school. My how things change.I hope he frys!

07-23-2007, 09:52 AM	#11
WhoDat205 Prediction Pain Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 1,082 Blog Entries: 2	Originally Posted by stockman311 They would make many more fans and probably more money in the long run by suspending Vick now. This is a case of setting a dangerous precident of suspending a player with no prior arrests for being CHARGED with a crime. Once you go down that road any player charged with any crime could be suspended. This will most likely be a situation where Vick faces a year of paid leave. It gets him off the field and out of the public eye and it removes the possibility of suspending a player charged with a crime for the fist time. Well put, Stockman. Godell already pee-ed in the punch by suspensing Pacman, Henry and Tank for 1/2 to a whole season; which is a move that hamstrung him in the Vick case. If he suspends Vick for the season, Vick's got a case against the league; if he doesn't suspend Vick, (that includes paid leave) the trio above will be releasing the legal hounds on the NFL for unfair treatment. Please realize that I am not defending Vick's (alleged) actions, or the actions of any of the guys above. I'm just pointing out that Goodell made a "rookie mistake" and checkmated himself and the league.
	"defence's personal to allwats double team or watch is over, that one reason why the saints or not any good." - Vador101

07-23-2007, 12:06 PM	#13
bobcat4u2 Registered Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 71	gambling is involved in this mess which could be lifetime ban.pac-man has no convictions and if found guilty of anything he's charged with,he doesn't match vick's charges.vick has already had the " RON MEXICO " herpes delivery, his home fan finger job and his wacky-backy smelling jewelry carrying waterbottle( if you beleive that,he wants you to try to get on his jury ) he more than qualifies for the season suspension on damage to nfl reputation.i agree i wouldn't miss saints game to protest but fans skipping his preseason games would do trick.then again,we'd miss fun of barking at him
bobcat4u2 Registered Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 71

07-23-2007, 03:20 PM	#17
danr5160 Rookie Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 6	Originally Posted by ScottyRo PETA is WAAAAY out of line in calling for his suspension based on this indictment. You have to remember that an indictment is one side of the story: the prosecution's side. The defense does not get a chance to rebut any of the testimony or evidence. Prosecutors regularly use very shaky evidence in combination with whatever solid evidence they have to secure these indictments. ScottyRo, I agree that's how our country was founded. However, have you actually read the indictment? There are 4 "cooperating witnesses" (granted they are all admitted dogfighter criminals and trying to cop a plea) producing a lot of very, very damning details, and a ton of hard evidence collected on Michael Vick's property. The business (Bad Newz Kennels) was in Vick's name. Some of the bets Vick allegedly paid directly were $tens of thousands, and you know that before the feds handed down the indictment they rationalized the alleged payoffs with transfers from his accounts. So you're right, he hasn't been found guilty, and the defense could still possibly pull off a miracle save. But I would NOT want those charges and that evidence facing me in federal court. This isn't the LA police and prosecutors, this is the FBI. This won't be an OJ circus, this is all business. I'm not ready to hang him, but anybody want to take a bet on the outcome?
danr5160 Rookie Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 6

07-23-2007, 04:02 PM	#18
stockman311 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 1,137	Originally Posted by danr5160 I'm not ready to hang him, but anybody want to take a bet on the outcome? I give him a less than 5% chance. He is most likely off to the pen. You still can't suspend him for a first time offense. If he is found guilty his life as he has known it is over and it should be. But this is not China or the Middle East. Our legal system as messed up as it is sometimes is what seperates us from the animals living in other countries without an "innocent until proven guilty" system. However, if I were Mike Vick and I was given the opportunity to take a paid leave of absense I would jump on it. There is no way I would subject myself, my organization, and my teamates to the amount of media frenzy and public outcry that is about to descend on Flowery Mound, GA. If he has any selflessness left he should take his paycheck each week and focus on defending himself if he is innocent or making a plea bargain if he is guilty.

07-23-2007, 04:23 PM	#19
CheramieIII Fan Since 1967 Join Date: May 2004 Location: Nomad Posts: 7,480 Blog Entries: 3	Damn, I didn't think I would get any response out of this but glad to see it. I am not convicting Michael Vick before he goes to trial. I am only calling for fairness for everyone. If I was charged with any felony my senior management team at best would suspend me without pay, but more than likely would fire me, period! Now why should Michael Vick be treated any differently. The team belongs to Mr. Blank and I am sure there is something in Mr. Vicks contract that allows Mr. Blank to release Michael Vick for his conduct. Bird at fans, water bottle at the airport, slamming dogs to the ground and killing them. Yes, I understand the 3rd item is not proven yet, but isn't it Vicks responsibility to keep himself out of those situations, yes it is! Believe me Vick at best will be suspended pending the outcome by tonight and worse cases scenario will be released by Thursday. If you were any owner would you pick him up? As for me, NO!
	Golf and sex are about the only things you can enjoy without being good at them. Jimmy Demaret

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07-23-2007, 10:52 AM	#12
Euphoria 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 7,601 Blog Entries: 5	Yeah you can't suspend him until there is conviction or a guilty plea. Pacman and Vick are 2 different situations... one where he has been in trouble and continued to get in trouble and NFL took action. Vick's situation is that he is facing charges and he shouldn't be convited or punished before anyone just claims he did something wrong. If that was the case you better call the FBI and have them do the same thing to Manning before we play the Colts so we can beat them.

07-23-2007, 01:46 PM	#14
ScottyRo 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Williamsburg, VA (ugh, the food here) Posts: 1,704	People wondering why Vick has not been suspended yet by looking at Pacman's suspension are missing the point of Pacman's suspension ENTIRELY. First of all, the keyword is CRIMINAL. For all the PR nightmares he has created, this is Vick's first CRIMINAL problem. The closest thing that comes into play under this other than the indictment for dog fighting is the funny water bottle, but he was only detained for a few moments in that situation. Pacman on the other hand, entered the league on probation, has been arrested twice and has been interviewed as a person of interest in criminal investigations up to 10 other times. It is that he has gotten himself into criminal trouble multiple times which brought about his suspension. Vick's situation is different in that there is only one criminal incident on his sheet. The commissioner has already established that his new policy is aimed at repeat CRIMINAL offenders while first time CRIMINAL offenders will be afforded the luxury of letting due process play out in the courts. For its actions, PETA is WAAAAY out of line in calling for his suspension based on this indictment. You have to remember that an indictment is one side of the story: the prosecution's side. The defense does not get a chance to rebut any of the testimony or evidence. Prosecutors regularly use very shaky evidence in combination with whatever solid evidence they have to secure these indictments. PETA and many others are acting as if Vick has already been found guilty and are asking for things with total disregard for how it could affect somebody who could be innocent. Don't tell me you KNOW he's guilty. You weren't there. You didn't see anything. If you think he is guilty, you are relying on only one side of the story which includes the testimony of some individuals that you probably wouldn't let in your house. The thing is, I can't stand Vick. I think he is way overrated and I get sick of hearing about him like he is some great QB or something. Plus, he plays for the Falcons who I hate. However, I am not going to let my disdain for him cloud my judgment on how this situation needs to be treated. I think many of you who are in favor of suspending Vick now would, if being completely honest, admit that your disdain for him as a player and probably as a person (even without the dog fighting allegations) is influencing your decision making when calling for his suspension.

07-23-2007, 02:21 PM	#15
WhoDat205 Prediction Pain Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 1,082 Blog Entries: 2	ScottyRo, that was the most well composed, rational, logical and well thought out position I've heard on this board to date. Well played...

07-23-2007, 02:32 PM	#16
Euphoria 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 7,601 Blog Entries: 5	Scotty Ro... Great Job.

07-23-2007, 09:46 PM	#20
JOESAM2002 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: CRYSTAL BEACH TEXAS Posts: 4,100	Here's something I don't understand. At the very least Vick is a liar. I can't see any way in hell he didn't know what was going on on his property unless he's totally brain dead (which is very possible). So if he knew, then what? Lieing isn't a felony I don't think but it sure makes him look guilty. I think Vick has worked himself into this situation and I for one hope he never gets out of it. Yes I am judging him before he officially charged but I don't like him and I don't like anyrhing associated with him. P.S. Whats bad is, I liked him when he was in school. My how things change.I hope he frys!
	Sometimes it's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought an idiot, than to open it and remove all doubt!!!!! "Every time you think, you weaken the nation!" Moe Howard...The Three Stooges.