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Re: payton wants shockey...................

Conventional wisdom has it that Defense won the game for the Giants. Last I checked, Shockey didn't play defense.

I'm not saying I ascribe to this view (because I don't). However, before someone else says that Shockey's injury won the Giants the SB, I suggest they also address this argument (that is was Defense that really wins championships).

Furthermore, it is difficult to see how one can believe the only evidence for football related claims is watching a team play can also believe that they somehow "watch Shockey's not playing help the Giants win".

Re: payton wants shockey...................

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL (Post 165656)

He can say this because the way his team won the SB is the way that the SB is won virtually every year. Quick: name the last TE that was the SB MVP. I'll wait.

Again, this has NOTHING to do with anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL (Post 165656)

I actually agree with that sentiment. But the numbers are simple:

#4 offense
#26 defense

So where do you need to get better?

Where do you need to get better? Offense, Defense, Special Team, Training and Conditioning, Medical, Coaching, and Front Office.

Just because Defense needs the most help does not mean it should get ALL of it, and we need to improve across the board, every year, in every way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL (Post 165656)

But the #1 offense made it to the SB last year. And they walked off the field without the trophy.

The numbers don't lie. SB offenses are all over the place. But SB defenses are either consistently great throughout the season, or get hot in the playoffs. But whichever team is playing the best defense in January wins the SB virtually every time.

Okay, great. I will agree the numbers don't lie, but they also don't mean anything. I don't care about offensive numbers or TE SB MVPs. Shockey did not help his team win the SB, but he damn well helped them to get to it.

I want a player who can help us get TO a Super Bowl, even a dysfunctional one like the Giants.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL (Post 165656)

I never really challenged the talent part of the equation. My only question is that why doesn't Shockey's production match those matchup problems? Guys like Winslow, Gates, and Gonzales get 90+ catches in a good year. Shockey has never been close to that.

Again, you have to look at the teams and NOT just the numbers. Winslow, Gates, and Gonzales play on teams with NO Wide Receivers. Edwards is finally stepping up in Cleveland, but SD and KC have no WRs. Keenan McCardell, Sammy Parker, Eddie Kinnison, they have no one BUT the TE to throw to and haven't for years! In SD Gates leads receptions, usually followed by LT. Your #1 WR coming in 3rd for catches on your team to the TE and RB is not optimum.

Shockey's performance does not match theirs because they HAVE PEOPLE TO THROW TO in the New York.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL (Post 165656)

Now here's where we part ways. Loudmouth malcontents MAKES teams dysfunctional. They create drama. They cause teammates to take sides, to have to defend positions, to lose focus. They take away attention from what's important, the team winning football games, and places it upon themselves.

The Saints don't have any of those types of guys right now. Bringing in Shockey can make that old adage come true:

One bad apple spoils the bunch.

You realize that old adage was started by incompetent leaders who didn't want the sheep to rock the boat and therefore point out their incompetence.

The malcontents are the result of screwed up teams. Go look at all the Giants news from the last few years. The whole team has been pretty unhappy with the coaching staff since Coughlin got there. Shockey is not the CAUSE of the Giants problems, he is the public admission of their problems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL (Post 165656)

There are three aspects to this better thing and you've only really addressed one:

1) Talent. A positive there.
2) Fit. Big negative there.
3) Cost. It's going to take some cheese to get the guy in here. We're going to have to give up a significant draft pick or a productive player (or both) to get him.

Two out of three of these need to be a positive to make it work and right now I see it as two thumbs down.

Fit is not a problem. We have a good organization and solid leadership. Your lack of faith in the leadership of the team disturbs me a bit. Drew and Payton can handle Shockey, because they are not inept.

As for cost, I'll trade a productive player for a game-changing player any day of the week. A pawn can be very productive in chess, but I will still trade one for an extra knight or bishop any day, thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL (Post 165656)

Now the really funny thing is that if I bring another talented malcontent into the discussion I'd get a completely different reaction.

Pacman Jones.

Now I wouldn't bring him in either for exactly the same reasons but in fact Dallas got a steal on the ledger sheet:

1) talent. I think that's been shown.
2) Fit. Triple negative here.
3) Cost. Nothing. A lowly conditional future draft pick with no bonus money in the contract.

If dude doesn't work out, he gets cut and it costs Dallas nothing.

The Saints will not be able to say the same with Shockey. He's a costly, risky gamble for production that has not yet to be shown to be much better than the production we've seen from the tight ends on staff.

Oh wow, a different person in a different situation being considered differently? How crazy is that? It's almost like complaining about your coach and being involved in shootings in strip clubs are totally different. It's almost like... like... like Pacman and Shockey are NOT the same person! Oh, wait, that is right, they are not!

Pacman Jones is someone who has the added risk of not being able to play. Even if he wasn't currently suspended, how long until he is suspended again? Pac-man is someone I would not want living in New Orleans.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL (Post 165656)

One last point, from a production standpoint I really think that Shockey has a bigger stature in fans minds than the numbers suggest. Over his career he's been averaging about 60 catches, 600 yards, and 4 TD a year. Compare to Gonzales who averages 75 catches, 900 yards, and 6 TD a year or Gates who averages 68 catches, 875 yards and nearly 9 TDs a year.

So what I see is a moderately talented TE with a questionable locker room presence and a really high price tag.

And you wonder why I argue that this supposed trade is a really bad idea.

SFIAH

Again, compare the Giants receivers to the SD and KC receivers. The only TE's that consistently outperform Shockey statwise are the ones who are the PRIMARY RECEIVERS for their teams! I am not taking anything away from Gonzales and Gates, but do you think they would have the stats they do if they played along side Marvin and Reggie or Issac and Tory? Their stats are padded because they get all the balls.

Shockey is not coming in to get 90+ catches a year, that is not why we want him. We want him because those 60 catches he makes are the tough ones Johnson drops.

Re: payton wants shockey...................

Thats BS... if you didn't have a player running at the mouth about everything under the sun and his coaches, team mates... no one would think there was a problem.

SHUT UP AND PLAY BALL. He ran his mouth and now it goes to show him the coach he bad mouth won him a damn SB ring = IDIOT.

Re: payton wants shockey...................

Quote:

Originally Posted by Euphoria (Post 165701)

So, if there WAS a problem and no one says anything about, then it isn't really a problem. A problem is only a problem if someone talks about it.

No. The Giants have had lots of problems with LOTS of players since Coughlin got there. No one acknowledges this.

I also don't care if he threw his coach under the bus. In one sentence, he held himself, his teammates, and his coaches accountable for losing a game. Who, instead of the players and coaches, do you usually hold accountable for a loss? He said "We got outplayed, and we got out coached." He was playing that game, he was taking his own share of the responsibility for the loss.

Everyone focuses on the part of that sentence that they want to focus on. I want to see him shut up and play too, he needs to be in a place where he can shut up and play, and that p[lace is New Orleans.

Re: payton wants shockey...................

Quote:

Originally Posted by Euphoria (Post 165697)

Ok lets say we get Jeremy "ME, Selfish" Shockey.

I think we should start a pool on what will be the reasons he wants to be traded from us.

1. Food SUCKs!
2. Cajuns are gay!
3. Sean doesn't know his butt from a whole in the ground.

JereME Shockey.... You forgot #4...

4. All of the above.

Put me down with no gays in the locker room. You know the type that shave their entire body.

Re: payton wants shockey...................

Quote:

Originally Posted by JKool (Post 165699)

Funny that you mention that :)

If I recall correctly, the NY defense gave up the lead with about 2 minutes on the clock. Then, the NE defense could not stop the Giants inside the 2 minute warning and gave up the lead back with 30-some seconds.

So I say offense won that one.

Re: payton wants shockey...................

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper (Post 165728)

Dude, you're the man.

Re: payton wants shockey...................

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper (Post 165728)

seriously? I mean seriously??? you think that seriously???

Re: payton wants shockey...................

Quote:

I've tried to make that point to him all offseason... trust me, it won't get through. Now if it was Randy Moss you were talking about, he might sing a different tune.

:cool:

Re: payton wants shockey...................

Quote:

Originally Posted by LivnaLieTimay (Post 165693)

There's no denying that talent-wise, Shockey is a top 5 talent. However, there's more to football that being talented. I live up in NY, all my friends are Giants fans and their fan base is 50/50 on him. You have to weigh his talents against his attitude and I for one don't want him as a Saint. Couple things I want to point out about him:

1) This guy ripped on the gay community saying he wouldn't stand for one of his teammates being gay. Oh, that's being a great teammate. Just the guy I want on my team...

2) A year later he calls Bill Parcells a derogatory name for being gay. He was never his coach but felt the need to throw him under the bus.

3) After losing a game to Seattle he throws his current coach under the bus saying "We got outplayed, and we got outcoached. Write that down."

4) The Giants went on to win the Super Bowl after he went down with an injury. The whole team got better when he went out of the lineup and that isn't a coincidence. He demands the ball all the time and when he doesn't he becomes a distraction. He's extremely selfish.

5) Having watched many Giants games, I can tell you this guy drops way too many touchdowns. He's solid between the 20's but once you get into the redzone, he disappears. The last thing we need is another guy dropping passes for Drew.

6) Lastly, the Giants are asking way to much for him. I'd much rather continue building our defense. Our offense is Super Bowl caliber. Team's with worse offenses than ours have won SB's in the last decade. We already traded away a draft pick for Vilma and I'm fine with that because we got a defensive starter. Unless Shockey can also play linebacker or corner at a pro bowl level, he won't help our team get to the next level.

JUST SAY NO TO JEREMY!!!

Thank you! THANK YOU!

:D:D:D:D:D:D

SFIAH