Shockey=Upgrade?

saintsfan1976 · 05-05-2008, 08:02 AM

Here's a good article on why the G-men are glad to keep Shockey...

NO GIANT SHOCK-ER - New York Post

" The bulging tattooed biceps, the flowing blond hair and all those No. 80 jerseys? How did Shockey the phenomenon become Shockey the pariah after he got hurt and the Giants hit the road and shockingly rolled to Super Bowl glory? The case to jettison Shockey is based largely on hearsay and bogus observations.

Like a spark on dry brush, the wildfire spread that Shockey is a terror around Eli Manning, that the fiery tight end browbeat the timid quarterback after every errant throw, that Shockey was a crazy man in meetings, sulking as he returned to the huddle knowing he was open with nothing to show for it.

Well, anyone who thinks of Manning shrinking around Shockey like an intimidated wimp has never spent a minute around Manning. The guy didn't suddenly grow up in frigid Green Bay or in the last two minutes of Super Bowl XLII. Eli is never going to grab Shockey's facemask and tell him to stuff it, just as Shockey is never going to quietly shrink into the background. The personalities of these two athletes could not be more different and sure, Shockey can be a pain, but players look beyond that when judging a teammate. They look to how he works and if they can count on him in the clutch. "

" The bandwagon detractors are judging Shockey by an unfair standard. Any player would have difficulty coming to grips with going down with a broken leg and then watching his team take off. Are they better without me? Do they miss me? These are perfectly normal questions for anyone. Go ask Phil Simms what was coursing through his mind as Jeff Hostetler was directing the Giants New York Giants - Phil's Giants - to Super Bowl triumph.

Does he care? Shockey was instructed by his medical advisors not to attend Super Bowl XLII, as he was not far removed from surgery and on crutches. He couldn't stay away and, on his own dime, limped onto a flight, accompanied by his mother, to be with the guys in Glendale, Ariz. Shockey is not expected to be with his championship team tomorrow for the traditional ceremony on the South Lawn of the White House with President Bush, but you never know. "

Memnoch_TP · 05-06-2008, 01:34 AM

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

I vote something else unless you are willing guarantee that he's not going to be a problem.

His past history has shown him to be a loudmouth. Currently the Saints have no loudmouths on the squad. They are a bring your lunchpail type group that works hard and tries to get the job done.

Talent is important. Chemistry is important too.

Ask the question: if Shockey is an upgrade over Kevin Boss, then why are the Giants shopping him?

Hmm?

SFIAH

WHY do you think that Shockey has been such a loudmouth? Do you think he is just an ******* who has no ability or desire to be nice to anyone at anytime?

From what I have seen of Shockey, he IS an *******, but one who is typically (and unrepentantly) only an ******* to people who deserve it. The Giants have been screwed up for a while. Have you forgotten Tiki Barber? One of the "Nice Guys" of the league, and he didn't have a whole lot of good to say about the Giants' organization. I have heard grumbles from Strahan and so many other Giants in the last few years. Coughlin has been on the edge of getting fired for years. There was genuine surprise he didn't get fired before last season. The players on the team files a grievance with the NFL against Coughlin in his first training camp, so his boat has been rocking since he got there. And the only reason Eli got kind words around these boards before the playoffs was because he is Archie's son.

If Shockey was someplace stable like Carolina, Seattle, Tampa, Baltimore, etc. I would worry about his grumbling. He is NOT in a stable organization though. I don't see the problem.

CantonLegend · 05-06-2008, 02:07 AM

Originally Posted by Memnoch_TP

WHY do you think that Shockey has been such a loudmouth? Do you think he is just an ******* who has no ability or desire to be nice to anyone at anytime?

From what I have seen of Shockey, he IS an *******, but one who is typically (and unrepentantly) only an ******* to people who deserve it. The Giants have been screwed up for a while. Have you forgotten Tiki Barber? One of the "Nice Guys" of the league, and he didn't have a whole lot of good to say about the Giants' organization. I have heard grumbles from Strahan and so many other Giants in the last few years. Coughlin has been on the edge of getting fired for years. There was genuine surprise he didn't get fired before last season. The players on the team files a grievance with the NFL against Coughlin in his first training camp, so his boat has been rocking since he got there. And the only reason Eli got kind words around these boards before the playoffs was because he is Archie's son.

If Shockey was someplace stable like Carolina, Seattle, Tampa, Baltimore, etc. I would worry about his grumbling. He is NOT in a stable organization though. I don't see the problem.

If you imply that shockey is the cancer...or just flat out say it...and say he talks to much...and ruins teams....then take a look at TO....yes the biggest loud mouth in the NFL.....he has managed to make headlines on every team he's ever been on...and most of the time its not good....well guess what.....he landed on a team that uses him....a team that took him in and he doesnt hafta be the star....the best player on the team...i truely believe thats how shockey would fall....he would make our team much better...we would use him...and he would be happy....all it takes is the right system

Memnoch_TP · 05-06-2008, 03:31 AM

Originally Posted by CantonLegend

If you imply that shockey is the cancer...or just flat out say it...and say he talks to much...and ruins teams....then take a look at TO....yes the biggest loud mouth in the NFL.....he has managed to make headlines on every team he's ever been on...and most of the time its not good....well guess what.....he landed on a team that uses him....a team that took him in and he doesnt hafta be the star....the best player on the team...i truely believe thats how shockey would fall....he would make our team much better...we would use him...and he would be happy....all it takes is the right system

Amen. Lets look even deeper at T.O., lets look at motivation. He loves the attention? Yes, he probably does. That is kind of lagniappe for him though. He was there for the beginning of the fall of the 49'ers. If T.O. had been the cause of the Niners problems, they would be fixed now. They are not, his team was dysfunctional. The guys like T.O. and Shockey, like them are not, are the smoke that indicate a problem within an organization. They are the symptom of a problem, not the cause.

Moving on to the Eagles, T.O. was great his first year, and truly performed a herculean feat to play and perform in the Super Bowl. A Super Bowl he lost because his quarterback choked. McNabb did choke, too. He suddenly realized that the Eagle's string of NFC Championship losses suggest that McNabb is Big Money Choker.

I have seen guys who can whip your butt on a pool table all night long for $5 a rack, but you can clean them out in an hour for $50 a rack. McNabb is one of those guys. Top tier talent that is afraid of the view. T.O. knows he isn't getting younger, and a new QB was not an option in Philly, and he didn't think it possible to win it all in Philly. He got out the only way he could.

I'm not even defending their actions here, I'm just saying that these guys are this way for a reason. They don't start trouble, they announce it. We don't have that kind of trouble here. Therefore, we will have no problems with Shockey. We are not a problem organization.

Heck, think about Kyle Turley. Alot of people are mad at Turley, but it also turned out his observations about Haslett being a moron were pretty much dead-on. Don't lose sleep over having a smoke alarm because it might go off, as long as we make sure we don't leave the oven on all night we don't have to worry about it.

SaintFanInATLHELL · 05-06-2008, 06:19 AM

I'm going to snip to the punchlines...

Originally Posted by Memnoch_TP

The guys like T.O. and Shockey, like them are not, are the smoke that indicate a problem within an organization. They are the symptom of a problem, not the cause...

They don't start trouble, they announce it. We don't have that kind of trouble here. Therefore, we will have no problems with Shockey. We are not a problem organization.

How do we know that our Saints are not (your phrases, not mine) "big money chokers", "problem organization"? We have exactly one data point on big money games, the 2006 NFC championship game. Unfortunately we lost. I remember. I was there.

Second data point. The Giants climbed the mountain this year. 4 big money games on the road, went 4 for 4 including the ultimate prize. So where's the dysfunctional fire that makes Shockey want to get out of there so badly?

I'm been pointing out throughout this thread that the issue isn't about talent. From a talent standpoint Shockey is a huge upgrade.

But the Saints don't need a smoke alarm. A loudmouth who is trying to get out his current organization when they are at the pinnacle of the NFL.

I guess with T.O. you don't remember that first training camp under Parcells. Being on the sidelines in bike gear. The press conference shirtless in the driveway, the supposed suicide attempt and coverup. And this is with Dallas, a team that he supposedly likes.

Smoke alarm? Sounds like a train wreck to me.

Just talking about Shockey now is disruptive and the guy isn't even on our squad.

I just want to point out that all these teams that have acquired all these talented, yet dramatic players: T.O. (three times), Shockey, Chad Johnson, Moss (three times), PacMan (twice now), Vick have won exactly the same number of championships with these players that the Saints have: zero.

If talent alone won championships, then the Raiders would be champions every year. But it's been a long while since they've gotten there.

We don't need those types of guys. For every T.O. there's a Colston. For every Shockey there's an Antonio Gates. For every Vick, there's a Drew Brees. Talented guys that come in, work hard, make a difference, and don't create drama.

The Saints are a team full of those types of guys.

Let's keep it that way.

SFIAH

iceshack149 · 05-06-2008, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

I'm going to snip to the punchlines...

How do we know that our Saints are not (your phrases, not mine) "big money chokers", "problem organization"? We have exactly one data point on big money games, the 2006 NFC championship game. Unfortunately we lost. I remember. I was there.

Second data point. The Giants climbed the mountain this year. 4 big money games on the road, went 4 for 4 including the ultimate prize. So where's the dysfunctional fire that makes Shockey want to get out of there so badly?

I'm been pointing out throughout this thread that the issue isn't about talent. From a talent standpoint Shockey is a huge upgrade.

But the Saints don't need a smoke alarm. A loudmouth who is trying to get out his current organization when they are at the pinnacle of the NFL.

I guess with T.O. you don't remember that first training camp under Parcells. Being on the sidelines in bike gear. The press conference shirtless in the driveway, the supposed suicide attempt and coverup. And this is with Dallas, a team that he supposedly likes.

Smoke alarm? Sounds like a train wreck to me.

Just talking about Shockey now is disruptive and the guy isn't even on our squad.

I just want to point out that all these teams that have acquired all these talented, yet dramatic players: T.O. (three times), Shockey, Chad Johnson, Moss (three times), PacMan (twice now), Vick have won exactly the same number of championships with these players that the Saints have: zero.

If talent alone won championships, then the Raiders would be champions every year. But it's been a long while since they've gotten there.

We don't need those types of guys. For every T.O. there's a Colston. For every Shockey there's an Antonio Gates. For every Vick, there's a Drew Brees. Talented guys that come in, work hard, make a difference, and don't create drama.

The Saints are a team full of those types of guys.

Let's keep it that way.

SFIAH

I don't have that cool Orson Wells applause so this weak smiley will have to do. Great post SFIAH.

Memnoch_TP · 05-06-2008, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

I'm going to snip to the punchlines...

How do we know that our Saints are not (your phrases, not mine) "big money chokers", "problem organization"? We have exactly one data point on big money games, the 2006 NFC championship game. Unfortunately we lost. I remember. I was there.

Irrelevant. Losing one game does not make us a "Problem organization". I also was not debating if the Saints are/were/did choke, and I was using that as a reference to T.O. and the Eagles.

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

Second data point. The Giants climbed the mountain this year. 4 big money games on the road, went 4 for 4 including the ultimate prize. So where's the dysfunctional fire that makes Shockey want to get out of there so badly?

Go read Giants news for the last 4 or 5 years. The Giants managed to pull together this year and get it done when they had to. That does NOT mean they are an organization that you want to model yourself after.

Back to the pool references, Earl Strickland shoots with a slip stroke. It is very bad form, with a high percentage for innacuracy. I would never suggest someone try to shoot with a slip stroke, but just because it is a bit abnormal doesn't mean you can't be a champion.

Why would Shockey want to get out so badly? Because he still doesn't like his team/coaches/enviornment and he doesn't think they can repeat. The Giants played the hardest and came out on top. That makes them winners, not perfect.

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

I'm been pointing out throughout this thread that the issue isn't about talent. From a talent standpoint Shockey is a huge upgrade.

But the Saints don't need a smoke alarm. A loudmouth who is trying to get out his current organization when they are at the pinnacle of the NFL.

I guess with T.O. you don't remember that first training camp under Parcells. Being on the sidelines in bike gear. The press conference shirtless in the driveway, the supposed suicide attempt and coverup. And this is with Dallas, a team that he supposedly likes.

Smoke alarm? Sounds like a train wreck to me.

Okay, he had an injured hammy and he wore bike gear (in team colors) when he knew he was going to be on the stationary bike all day.

OMG! A millionaire superstar dressing flashy! This hurt his team, how? He got some face time on camera during camp. This is bad for the team how?

Then the shirtless press conference. Yes, he had something non-disruptive to say, and so he said it while showing off his chest. I'm with you on this. He spent all those years exercising, truly bringing his body to the peak of human potential, and then he has the gall to show it off? He needs to keep his shirt on the way I have to, because instead of exercising I ate pizza.

Wait, I take it back, I guess I'm not with you on that. If I had the upper body T.O. did I would go out of my way to show it off too. Again, this is bad (or relevant) to his team how?

And the suicide/coverup? Dude, people like T.O. don't off themselves. It isn't in his makeup. I don't believe that for an instant.

T.O. is a showoff. That won't change. But he has not been a problem in Dallas is a pretty stable organization with strong leadership and a talented team. Just like us. And Payton learned his job from the same Coach who has had no problems dealing with T.O. and Keyshawn.

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

Just talking about Shockey now is disruptive and the guy isn't even on our squad.

Yeah, cause before Shockey the B&G community was on the brink of a Nobel Peace prize. Now we won't be able to use our shining example to bring unity to Tibet and China.

Are you smoking crack?

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

I just want to point out that all these teams that have acquired all these talented, yet dramatic players: T.O. (three times), Shockey, Chad Johnson, Moss (three times), PacMan (twice now), Vick have won exactly the same number of championships with these players that the Saints have: zero.

If talent alone won championships, then the Raiders would be champions every year. But it's been a long while since they've gotten there.

Technically, they have won one more SB than the Saints and Vick. The Giants won last year. T.O. has been with three teams (Drafted by SF, then to Philly, then to Dallas) so if the team that drafted them counts, Shockey's ring counts.

The guys on your list have been to three Super Bowls, and a couple of Conference Championships. Moss did not do well in Oakland because the team is screwed up, always in flux, and totally dysfunctional.

Jesus Christ couldn't have come in at WR and gotten a SB berth for the Raiders! Lets be realistic. And then as soon as he got in a competent, competetive, and stable team he excelled and made a GREAT offense the GREATEST offense, while causing no problems.

Johnson no longer has ANY faith in his coaching staff or FO. I think he would have no problems on a good, stable team. Just by the constant arrests and hooplah going on in Cinci you can see their management has no skills when it comes to evaluating or handling the people side of the equation.

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

We don't need those types of guys. For every T.O. there's a Colston. For every Shockey there's an Antonio Gates. For every Vick, there's a Drew Brees. Talented guys that come in, work hard, make a difference, and don't create drama.

The Saints are a team full of those types of guys.

Let's keep it that way.

SFIAH

I do want to keep it that way. I want to do it by bringing in Shockey and making him a guy that comes in, works hard, makes a difference, and doesn't create drama.

You do this buy having good leadership and running a good team. I'll take an ultra talented loudmouth any day, because they only complain when you give them reason to complain.

The most expensive and well made tool does you no good at all if you don't know how to use it.

An experienced marksman is not going to get hit in the face with a recoiling shotgun butt. WHen it comes to personnel management, Coughlin and the Giants are just starting to learn how to fire a gun, and Payton and the Saints are marksmen.

You don't understand how Shockey can be a benefit because you don't understand how to deal with someone like him. Trust me, just because you can't do it doesn't mean it can't be done.

Shockey will be nothing but an asset.

View Poll Results: Would Shockey be an upgrade to our team?
Yes	25	86.21%
No	0	0%
something else?	4	13.79%
Voters: 29. You may not vote on this poll

05-05-2008, 08:02 AM	#11
saintsfan1976 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Atlanta Posts: 10,848 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Shockey=Upgrade? Here's a good article on why the G-men are glad to keep Shockey... NO GIANT SHOCK-ER - New York Post " The bulging tattooed biceps, the flowing blond hair and all those No. 80 jerseys? How did Shockey the phenomenon become Shockey the pariah after he got hurt and the Giants hit the road and shockingly rolled to Super Bowl glory? The case to jettison Shockey is based largely on hearsay and bogus observations. Like a spark on dry brush, the wildfire spread that Shockey is a terror around Eli Manning, that the fiery tight end browbeat the timid quarterback after every errant throw, that Shockey was a crazy man in meetings, sulking as he returned to the huddle knowing he was open with nothing to show for it. Well, anyone who thinks of Manning shrinking around Shockey like an intimidated wimp has never spent a minute around Manning. The guy didn't suddenly grow up in frigid Green Bay or in the last two minutes of Super Bowl XLII. Eli is never going to grab Shockey's facemask and tell him to stuff it, just as Shockey is never going to quietly shrink into the background. The personalities of these two athletes could not be more different and sure, Shockey can be a pain, but players look beyond that when judging a teammate. They look to how he works and if they can count on him in the clutch. " " The bandwagon detractors are judging Shockey by an unfair standard. Any player would have difficulty coming to grips with going down with a broken leg and then watching his team take off. Are they better without me? Do they miss me? These are perfectly normal questions for anyone. Go ask Phil Simms what was coursing through his mind as Jeff Hostetler was directing the Giants New York Giants - Phil's Giants - to Super Bowl triumph. Does he care? Shockey was instructed by his medical advisors not to attend Super Bowl XLII, as he was not far removed from surgery and on crutches. He couldn't stay away and, on his own dime, limped onto a flight, accompanied by his mother, to be with the guys in Glendale, Ariz. Shockey is not expected to be with his championship team tomorrow for the traditional ceremony on the South Lawn of the White House with President Bush, but you never know. "

05-06-2008, 01:34 AM	#12
Memnoch_TP Logic Troll Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Southern Louisiana Posts: 565	Re: Shockey=Upgrade? Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL I vote something else unless you are willing guarantee that he's not going to be a problem. His past history has shown him to be a loudmouth. Currently the Saints have no loudmouths on the squad. They are a bring your lunchpail type group that works hard and tries to get the job done. Talent is important. Chemistry is important too. Ask the question: if Shockey is an upgrade over Kevin Boss, then why are the Giants shopping him? Hmm? SFIAH WHY do you think that Shockey has been such a loudmouth? Do you think he is just an ***** who has no ability or desire to be nice to anyone at anytime? From what I have seen of Shockey, he IS an ***, but one who is typically (and unrepentantly) only an ***** to people who deserve it. The Giants have been screwed up for a while. Have you forgotten Tiki Barber? One of the "Nice Guys" of the league, and he didn't have a whole lot of good to say about the Giants' organization. I have heard grumbles from Strahan and so many other Giants in the last few years. Coughlin has been on the edge of getting fired for years. There was genuine surprise he didn't get fired before last season. The players on the team files a grievance with the NFL against Coughlin in his first training camp, so his boat has been rocking since he got there. And the only reason Eli got kind words around these boards before the playoffs was because he is Archie's son. If Shockey was someplace stable like Carolina, Seattle, Tampa, Baltimore, etc. I would worry about his grumbling. He is NOT in a stable organization though. I don't see the problem.
	"Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so." -- Douglas Adams.

05-06-2008, 02:07 AM	#13
CantonLegend 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 2,685 Blog Entries: 2	Re: Shockey=Upgrade? Originally Posted by Memnoch_TP WHY do you think that Shockey has been such a loudmouth? Do you think he is just an ***** who has no ability or desire to be nice to anyone at anytime? From what I have seen of Shockey, he IS an ***, but one who is typically (and unrepentantly) only an ***** to people who deserve it. The Giants have been screwed up for a while. Have you forgotten Tiki Barber? One of the "Nice Guys" of the league, and he didn't have a whole lot of good to say about the Giants' organization. I have heard grumbles from Strahan and so many other Giants in the last few years. Coughlin has been on the edge of getting fired for years. There was genuine surprise he didn't get fired before last season. The players on the team files a grievance with the NFL against Coughlin in his first training camp, so his boat has been rocking since he got there. And the only reason Eli got kind words around these boards before the playoffs was because he is Archie's son. If Shockey was someplace stable like Carolina, Seattle, Tampa, Baltimore, etc. I would worry about his grumbling. He is NOT in a stable organization though. I don't see the problem. If you imply that shockey is the cancer...or just flat out say it...and say he talks to much...and ruins teams....then take a look at TO....yes the biggest loud mouth in the NFL.....he has managed to make headlines on every team he's ever been on...and most of the time its not good....well guess what.....he landed on a team that uses him....a team that took him in and he doesnt hafta be the star....the best player on the team...i truely believe thats how shockey would fall....he would make our team much better...we would use him...and he would be happy....all it takes is the right system
	"deal with it or you can go play the saints and get trounced by 30 and you won't have to worry about it."-colin cowherd

05-06-2008, 03:31 AM	#14
Memnoch_TP Logic Troll Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Southern Louisiana Posts: 565	Re: Shockey=Upgrade? Originally Posted by CantonLegend If you imply that shockey is the cancer...or just flat out say it...and say he talks to much...and ruins teams....then take a look at TO....yes the biggest loud mouth in the NFL.....he has managed to make headlines on every team he's ever been on...and most of the time its not good....well guess what.....he landed on a team that uses him....a team that took him in and he doesnt hafta be the star....the best player on the team...i truely believe thats how shockey would fall....he would make our team much better...we would use him...and he would be happy....all it takes is the right system Amen. Lets look even deeper at T.O., lets look at motivation. He loves the attention? Yes, he probably does. That is kind of lagniappe for him though. He was there for the beginning of the fall of the 49'ers. If T.O. had been the cause of the Niners problems, they would be fixed now. They are not, his team was dysfunctional. The guys like T.O. and Shockey, like them are not, are the smoke that indicate a problem within an organization. They are the symptom of a problem, not the cause. Moving on to the Eagles, T.O. was great his first year, and truly performed a herculean feat to play and perform in the Super Bowl. A Super Bowl he lost because his quarterback choked. McNabb did choke, too. He suddenly realized that the Eagle's string of NFC Championship losses suggest that McNabb is Big Money Choker. I have seen guys who can whip your butt on a pool table all night long for $5 a rack, but you can clean them out in an hour for $50 a rack. McNabb is one of those guys. Top tier talent that is afraid of the view. T.O. knows he isn't getting younger, and a new QB was not an option in Philly, and he didn't think it possible to win it all in Philly. He got out the only way he could. I'm not even defending their actions here, I'm just saying that these guys are this way for a reason. They don't start trouble, they announce it. We don't have that kind of trouble here. Therefore, we will have no problems with Shockey. We are not a problem organization. Heck, think about Kyle Turley. Alot of people are mad at Turley, but it also turned out his observations about Haslett being a moron were pretty much dead-on. Don't lose sleep over having a smoke alarm because it might go off, as long as we make sure we don't leave the oven on all night we don't have to worry about it.
	"Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so." -- Douglas Adams.

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05-06-2008, 06:19 AM	#15
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,776	Re: Shockey=Upgrade? I'm going to snip to the punchlines... Originally Posted by Memnoch_TP The guys like T.O. and Shockey, like them are not, are the smoke that indicate a problem within an organization. They are the symptom of a problem, not the cause... They don't start trouble, they announce it. We don't have that kind of trouble here. Therefore, we will have no problems with Shockey. We are not a problem organization. How do we know that our Saints are not (your phrases, not mine) "big money chokers", "problem organization"? We have exactly one data point on big money games, the 2006 NFC championship game. Unfortunately we lost. I remember. I was there. Second data point. The Giants climbed the mountain this year. 4 big money games on the road, went 4 for 4 including the ultimate prize. So where's the dysfunctional fire that makes Shockey want to get out of there so badly? I'm been pointing out throughout this thread that the issue isn't about talent. From a talent standpoint Shockey is a huge upgrade. But the Saints don't need a smoke alarm. A loudmouth who is trying to get out his current organization when they are at the pinnacle of the NFL. I guess with T.O. you don't remember that first training camp under Parcells. Being on the sidelines in bike gear. The press conference shirtless in the driveway, the supposed suicide attempt and coverup. And this is with Dallas, a team that he supposedly likes. Smoke alarm? Sounds like a train wreck to me. Just talking about Shockey now is disruptive and the guy isn't even on our squad. I just want to point out that all these teams that have acquired all these talented, yet dramatic players: T.O. (three times), Shockey, Chad Johnson, Moss (three times), PacMan (twice now), Vick have won exactly the same number of championships with these players that the Saints have: zero. If talent alone won championships, then the Raiders would be champions every year. But it's been a long while since they've gotten there. We don't need those types of guys. For every T.O. there's a Colston. For every Shockey there's an Antonio Gates. For every Vick, there's a Drew Brees. Talented guys that come in, work hard, make a difference, and don't create drama. The Saints are a team full of those types of guys. Let's keep it that way. SFIAH
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.

05-06-2008, 02:09 PM	#16
iceshack149 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Fairbanks, AK Posts: 4,299 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Shockey=Upgrade? Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL I'm going to snip to the punchlines... How do we know that our Saints are not (your phrases, not mine) "big money chokers", "problem organization"? We have exactly one data point on big money games, the 2006 NFC championship game. Unfortunately we lost. I remember. I was there. Second data point. The Giants climbed the mountain this year. 4 big money games on the road, went 4 for 4 including the ultimate prize. So where's the dysfunctional fire that makes Shockey want to get out of there so badly? I'm been pointing out throughout this thread that the issue isn't about talent. From a talent standpoint Shockey is a huge upgrade. But the Saints don't need a smoke alarm. A loudmouth who is trying to get out his current organization when they are at the pinnacle of the NFL. I guess with T.O. you don't remember that first training camp under Parcells. Being on the sidelines in bike gear. The press conference shirtless in the driveway, the supposed suicide attempt and coverup. And this is with Dallas, a team that he supposedly likes. Smoke alarm? Sounds like a train wreck to me. Just talking about Shockey now is disruptive and the guy isn't even on our squad. I just want to point out that all these teams that have acquired all these talented, yet dramatic players: T.O. (three times), Shockey, Chad Johnson, Moss (three times), PacMan (twice now), Vick have won exactly the same number of championships with these players that the Saints have: zero. If talent alone won championships, then the Raiders would be champions every year. But it's been a long while since they've gotten there. We don't need those types of guys. For every T.O. there's a Colston. For every Shockey there's an Antonio Gates. For every Vick, there's a Drew Brees. Talented guys that come in, work hard, make a difference, and don't create drama. The Saints are a team full of those types of guys. Let's keep it that way. SFIAH I don't have that cool Orson Wells applause so this weak smiley will have to do. Great post SFIAH.

05-06-2008, 04:06 PM	#17
Memnoch_TP Logic Troll Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Southern Louisiana Posts: 565	Re: Shockey=Upgrade? Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL I'm going to snip to the punchlines... How do we know that our Saints are not (your phrases, not mine) "big money chokers", "problem organization"? We have exactly one data point on big money games, the 2006 NFC championship game. Unfortunately we lost. I remember. I was there. Irrelevant. Losing one game does not make us a "Problem organization". I also was not debating if the Saints are/were/did choke, and I was using that as a reference to T.O. and the Eagles. Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL Second data point. The Giants climbed the mountain this year. 4 big money games on the road, went 4 for 4 including the ultimate prize. So where's the dysfunctional fire that makes Shockey want to get out of there so badly? Go read Giants news for the last 4 or 5 years. The Giants managed to pull together this year and get it done when they had to. That does NOT mean they are an organization that you want to model yourself after. Back to the pool references, Earl Strickland shoots with a slip stroke. It is very bad form, with a high percentage for innacuracy. I would never suggest someone try to shoot with a slip stroke, but just because it is a bit abnormal doesn't mean you can't be a champion. Why would Shockey want to get out so badly? Because he still doesn't like his team/coaches/enviornment and he doesn't think they can repeat. The Giants played the hardest and came out on top. That makes them winners, not perfect. Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL I'm been pointing out throughout this thread that the issue isn't about talent. From a talent standpoint Shockey is a huge upgrade. But the Saints don't need a smoke alarm. A loudmouth who is trying to get out his current organization when they are at the pinnacle of the NFL. I guess with T.O. you don't remember that first training camp under Parcells. Being on the sidelines in bike gear. The press conference shirtless in the driveway, the supposed suicide attempt and coverup. And this is with Dallas, a team that he supposedly likes. Smoke alarm? Sounds like a train wreck to me. Okay, he had an injured hammy and he wore bike gear (in team colors) when he knew he was going to be on the stationary bike all day. OMG! A millionaire superstar dressing flashy! This hurt his team, how? He got some face time on camera during camp. This is bad for the team how? Then the shirtless press conference. Yes, he had something non-disruptive to say, and so he said it while showing off his chest. I'm with you on this. He spent all those years exercising, truly bringing his body to the peak of human potential, and then he has the gall to show it off? He needs to keep his shirt on the way I have to, because instead of exercising I ate pizza. Wait, I take it back, I guess I'm not with you on that. If I had the upper body T.O. did I would go out of my way to show it off too. Again, this is bad (or relevant) to his team how? And the suicide/coverup? Dude, people like T.O. don't off themselves. It isn't in his makeup. I don't believe that for an instant. T.O. is a showoff. That won't change. But he has not been a problem in Dallas is a pretty stable organization with strong leadership and a talented team. Just like us. And Payton learned his job from the same Coach who has had no problems dealing with T.O. and Keyshawn. Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL Just talking about Shockey now is disruptive and the guy isn't even on our squad. Yeah, cause before Shockey the B&G community was on the brink of a Nobel Peace prize. Now we won't be able to use our shining example to bring unity to Tibet and China. Are you smoking crack? Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL I just want to point out that all these teams that have acquired all these talented, yet dramatic players: T.O. (three times), Shockey, Chad Johnson, Moss (three times), PacMan (twice now), Vick have won exactly the same number of championships with these players that the Saints have: zero. If talent alone won championships, then the Raiders would be champions every year. But it's been a long while since they've gotten there. Technically, they have won one more SB than the Saints and Vick. The Giants won last year. T.O. has been with three teams (Drafted by SF, then to Philly, then to Dallas) so if the team that drafted them counts, Shockey's ring counts. The guys on your list have been to three Super Bowls, and a couple of Conference Championships. Moss did not do well in Oakland because the team is screwed up, always in flux, and totally dysfunctional. Jesus Christ couldn't have come in at WR and gotten a SB berth for the Raiders! Lets be realistic. And then as soon as he got in a competent, competetive, and stable team he excelled and made a GREAT offense the GREATEST offense, while causing no problems. Johnson no longer has ANY faith in his coaching staff or FO. I think he would have no problems on a good, stable team. Just by the constant arrests and hooplah going on in Cinci you can see their management has no skills when it comes to evaluating or handling the people side of the equation. Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL We don't need those types of guys. For every T.O. there's a Colston. For every Shockey there's an Antonio Gates. For every Vick, there's a Drew Brees. Talented guys that come in, work hard, make a difference, and don't create drama. The Saints are a team full of those types of guys. Let's keep it that way. SFIAH I do want to keep it that way. I want to do it by bringing in Shockey and making him a guy that comes in, works hard, makes a difference, and doesn't create drama. You do this buy having good leadership and running a good team. I'll take an ultra talented loudmouth any day, because they only complain when you give them reason to complain. The most expensive and well made tool does you no good at all if you don't know how to use it. An experienced marksman is not going to get hit in the face with a recoiling shotgun butt. WHen it comes to personnel management, Coughlin and the Giants are just starting to learn how to fire a gun, and Payton and the Saints are marksmen. You don't understand how Shockey can be a benefit because you don't understand how to deal with someone like him. Trust me, just because you can't do it doesn't mean it can't be done. Shockey will be nothing but an asset.
	"Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so." -- Douglas Adams.