Shockey=Upgrade?

Memnoch_TP · 05-06-2008, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

I'm going to snip to the punchlines...

How do we know that our Saints are not (your phrases, not mine) "big money chokers", "problem organization"? We have exactly one data point on big money games, the 2006 NFC championship game. Unfortunately we lost. I remember. I was there.

Irrelevant. Losing one game does not make us a "Problem organization". I also was not debating if the Saints are/were/did choke, and I was using that as a reference to T.O. and the Eagles.

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

Second data point. The Giants climbed the mountain this year. 4 big money games on the road, went 4 for 4 including the ultimate prize. So where's the dysfunctional fire that makes Shockey want to get out of there so badly?

Go read Giants news for the last 4 or 5 years. The Giants managed to pull together this year and get it done when they had to. That does NOT mean they are an organization that you want to model yourself after.

Back to the pool references, Earl Strickland shoots with a slip stroke. It is very bad form, with a high percentage for innacuracy. I would never suggest someone try to shoot with a slip stroke, but just because it is a bit abnormal doesn't mean you can't be a champion.

Why would Shockey want to get out so badly? Because he still doesn't like his team/coaches/enviornment and he doesn't think they can repeat. The Giants played the hardest and came out on top. That makes them winners, not perfect.

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

I'm been pointing out throughout this thread that the issue isn't about talent. From a talent standpoint Shockey is a huge upgrade.

But the Saints don't need a smoke alarm. A loudmouth who is trying to get out his current organization when they are at the pinnacle of the NFL.

I guess with T.O. you don't remember that first training camp under Parcells. Being on the sidelines in bike gear. The press conference shirtless in the driveway, the supposed suicide attempt and coverup. And this is with Dallas, a team that he supposedly likes.

Smoke alarm? Sounds like a train wreck to me.

Okay, he had an injured hammy and he wore bike gear (in team colors) when he knew he was going to be on the stationary bike all day.

OMG! A millionaire superstar dressing flashy! This hurt his team, how? He got some face time on camera during camp. This is bad for the team how?

Then the shirtless press conference. Yes, he had something non-disruptive to say, and so he said it while showing off his chest. I'm with you on this. He spent all those years exercising, truly bringing his body to the peak of human potential, and then he has the gall to show it off? He needs to keep his shirt on the way I have to, because instead of exercising I ate pizza.

Wait, I take it back, I guess I'm not with you on that. If I had the upper body T.O. did I would go out of my way to show it off too. Again, this is bad (or relevant) to his team how?

And the suicide/coverup? Dude, people like T.O. don't off themselves. It isn't in his makeup. I don't believe that for an instant.

T.O. is a showoff. That won't change. But he has not been a problem in Dallas is a pretty stable organization with strong leadership and a talented team. Just like us. And Payton learned his job from the same Coach who has had no problems dealing with T.O. and Keyshawn.

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

Just talking about Shockey now is disruptive and the guy isn't even on our squad.

Yeah, cause before Shockey the B&G community was on the brink of a Nobel Peace prize. Now we won't be able to use our shining example to bring unity to Tibet and China.

Are you smoking crack?

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

I just want to point out that all these teams that have acquired all these talented, yet dramatic players: T.O. (three times), Shockey, Chad Johnson, Moss (three times), PacMan (twice now), Vick have won exactly the same number of championships with these players that the Saints have: zero.

If talent alone won championships, then the Raiders would be champions every year. But it's been a long while since they've gotten there.

Technically, they have won one more SB than the Saints and Vick. The Giants won last year. T.O. has been with three teams (Drafted by SF, then to Philly, then to Dallas) so if the team that drafted them counts, Shockey's ring counts.

The guys on your list have been to three Super Bowls, and a couple of Conference Championships. Moss did not do well in Oakland because the team is screwed up, always in flux, and totally dysfunctional.

Jesus Christ couldn't have come in at WR and gotten a SB berth for the Raiders! Lets be realistic. And then as soon as he got in a competent, competetive, and stable team he excelled and made a GREAT offense the GREATEST offense, while causing no problems.

Johnson no longer has ANY faith in his coaching staff or FO. I think he would have no problems on a good, stable team. Just by the constant arrests and hooplah going on in Cinci you can see their management has no skills when it comes to evaluating or handling the people side of the equation.

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

We don't need those types of guys. For every T.O. there's a Colston. For every Shockey there's an Antonio Gates. For every Vick, there's a Drew Brees. Talented guys that come in, work hard, make a difference, and don't create drama.

The Saints are a team full of those types of guys.

Let's keep it that way.

SFIAH

I do want to keep it that way. I want to do it by bringing in Shockey and making him a guy that comes in, works hard, makes a difference, and doesn't create drama.

You do this buy having good leadership and running a good team. I'll take an ultra talented loudmouth any day, because they only complain when you give them reason to complain.

The most expensive and well made tool does you no good at all if you don't know how to use it.

An experienced marksman is not going to get hit in the face with a recoiling shotgun butt. WHen it comes to personnel management, Coughlin and the Giants are just starting to learn how to fire a gun, and Payton and the Saints are marksmen.

You don't understand how Shockey can be a benefit because you don't understand how to deal with someone like him. Trust me, just because you can't do it doesn't mean it can't be done.

Shockey will be nothing but an asset.

View Poll Results: Would Shockey be an upgrade to our team?
Yes	25	86.21%
No	0	0%
something else?	4	13.79%
Voters: 29. You may not vote on this poll

05-06-2008, 03:06 PM	#15
Memnoch_TP Logic Troll Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Southern Louisiana Posts: 565	Re: Shockey=Upgrade? Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL I'm going to snip to the punchlines... How do we know that our Saints are not (your phrases, not mine) "big money chokers", "problem organization"? We have exactly one data point on big money games, the 2006 NFC championship game. Unfortunately we lost. I remember. I was there. Irrelevant. Losing one game does not make us a "Problem organization". I also was not debating if the Saints are/were/did choke, and I was using that as a reference to T.O. and the Eagles. Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL Second data point. The Giants climbed the mountain this year. 4 big money games on the road, went 4 for 4 including the ultimate prize. So where's the dysfunctional fire that makes Shockey want to get out of there so badly? Go read Giants news for the last 4 or 5 years. The Giants managed to pull together this year and get it done when they had to. That does NOT mean they are an organization that you want to model yourself after. Back to the pool references, Earl Strickland shoots with a slip stroke. It is very bad form, with a high percentage for innacuracy. I would never suggest someone try to shoot with a slip stroke, but just because it is a bit abnormal doesn't mean you can't be a champion. Why would Shockey want to get out so badly? Because he still doesn't like his team/coaches/enviornment and he doesn't think they can repeat. The Giants played the hardest and came out on top. That makes them winners, not perfect. Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL I'm been pointing out throughout this thread that the issue isn't about talent. From a talent standpoint Shockey is a huge upgrade. But the Saints don't need a smoke alarm. A loudmouth who is trying to get out his current organization when they are at the pinnacle of the NFL. I guess with T.O. you don't remember that first training camp under Parcells. Being on the sidelines in bike gear. The press conference shirtless in the driveway, the supposed suicide attempt and coverup. And this is with Dallas, a team that he supposedly likes. Smoke alarm? Sounds like a train wreck to me. Okay, he had an injured hammy and he wore bike gear (in team colors) when he knew he was going to be on the stationary bike all day. OMG! A millionaire superstar dressing flashy! This hurt his team, how? He got some face time on camera during camp. This is bad for the team how? Then the shirtless press conference. Yes, he had something non-disruptive to say, and so he said it while showing off his chest. I'm with you on this. He spent all those years exercising, truly bringing his body to the peak of human potential, and then he has the gall to show it off? He needs to keep his shirt on the way I have to, because instead of exercising I ate pizza. Wait, I take it back, I guess I'm not with you on that. If I had the upper body T.O. did I would go out of my way to show it off too. Again, this is bad (or relevant) to his team how? And the suicide/coverup? Dude, people like T.O. don't off themselves. It isn't in his makeup. I don't believe that for an instant. T.O. is a showoff. That won't change. But he has not been a problem in Dallas is a pretty stable organization with strong leadership and a talented team. Just like us. And Payton learned his job from the same Coach who has had no problems dealing with T.O. and Keyshawn. Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL Just talking about Shockey now is disruptive and the guy isn't even on our squad. Yeah, cause before Shockey the B&G community was on the brink of a Nobel Peace prize. Now we won't be able to use our shining example to bring unity to Tibet and China. Are you smoking crack? Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL I just want to point out that all these teams that have acquired all these talented, yet dramatic players: T.O. (three times), Shockey, Chad Johnson, Moss (three times), PacMan (twice now), Vick have won exactly the same number of championships with these players that the Saints have: zero. If talent alone won championships, then the Raiders would be champions every year. But it's been a long while since they've gotten there. Technically, they have won one more SB than the Saints and Vick. The Giants won last year. T.O. has been with three teams (Drafted by SF, then to Philly, then to Dallas) so if the team that drafted them counts, Shockey's ring counts. The guys on your list have been to three Super Bowls, and a couple of Conference Championships. Moss did not do well in Oakland because the team is screwed up, always in flux, and totally dysfunctional. Jesus Christ couldn't have come in at WR and gotten a SB berth for the Raiders! Lets be realistic. And then as soon as he got in a competent, competetive, and stable team he excelled and made a GREAT offense the GREATEST offense, while causing no problems. Johnson no longer has ANY faith in his coaching staff or FO. I think he would have no problems on a good, stable team. Just by the constant arrests and hooplah going on in Cinci you can see their management has no skills when it comes to evaluating or handling the people side of the equation. Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL We don't need those types of guys. For every T.O. there's a Colston. For every Shockey there's an Antonio Gates. For every Vick, there's a Drew Brees. Talented guys that come in, work hard, make a difference, and don't create drama. The Saints are a team full of those types of guys. Let's keep it that way. SFIAH I do want to keep it that way. I want to do it by bringing in Shockey and making him a guy that comes in, works hard, makes a difference, and doesn't create drama. You do this buy having good leadership and running a good team. I'll take an ultra talented loudmouth any day, because they only complain when you give them reason to complain. The most expensive and well made tool does you no good at all if you don't know how to use it. An experienced marksman is not going to get hit in the face with a recoiling shotgun butt. WHen it comes to personnel management, Coughlin and the Giants are just starting to learn how to fire a gun, and Payton and the Saints are marksmen. You don't understand how Shockey can be a benefit because you don't understand how to deal with someone like him. Trust me, just because you can't do it doesn't mean it can't be done. Shockey will be nothing but an asset.
	"Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so." -- Douglas Adams.