Is pierre tradeable?

SaintFanInATLHELL · 05-16-2008, 06:47 AM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

Re: One Game Wonders...

Yes Mendenhall was behind PT on the depth chart at Illinois...

And Yes he had a good game...

But I remember the Saints making Flipper Anderson look like AllWorld in one game, and he did what over the course of his career?!?

We needed to draft a RB in R1, but we also needed to draft a DL even more...

I'm going to take you to task on this statement. The Saints drafted a RB #2 just 2 years ago. Their RB corps is productive all the way down to the 4th string guy. Deuce, Reggie, and Stecker all being hurt at the same time was a fluke, not an expectation.

With all the needs this team has, and the fact that the Saints offense has been in the top 5 offenses in the league for the past 2 years simply does not point to the need for a first round draft pick at RB.

If you haven't noticed, the engine of the Saints offense is Drew Brees. The running game is a complement, not a primary motivator.

I totally disagree that the Saints needed a first round draft pick at RB.

Ya'll have this man crush on Deuce as if he carries the offense. Let me clue you into his stat line for 2006, when the Saints were the #1 offense in the league:

244 rushes, 1057 yards, 4.3 YPC

Dude, that's not even a pro bowl season, much less a man crush one.

The bottom line is that the Saints offense needs a productive running game. All the explosiveness will come from the passing game.

SFIAH

hagan714 · 05-16-2008, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

Ya'll have this man crush on Deuce as if he carries the offense. Let me clue you into his stat line for 2006, when the Saints were the #1 offense in the league:

244 rushes, 1057 yards, 4.3 YPC

Dude, that's not even a pro bowl season, much less a man crush one.

The bottom line is that the Saints offense needs a productive running game. All the explosiveness will come from the passing game.

SFIAH

Ok lets take things out of context here. Duce by no means was carrying the offense in 2006. The system has changed. This is a west coast offense so the RB will never be the featured part of the system.
Roger Craigs carrier average was 4.1 YPC.
4x Pro Bowl
1985, 4.9
1987, 3.8
1988, 4.8
1989,3.9
Then again he did not have a RB like Bush sharing the backfield with him.
So the fact I think he was one of the best all around backs in history is unjust?

Now take a standard offense and one of the all tim greats
Walter Payton was named both All-Pro and All-NFC seven times and played in nine Pro Bowl games. Payton was selected as the NFL's Most Valuable Player in 1977 and 1985, the NFL Offensive Player of the Year in 1977 and 1985 and the NFC Most Valuable Player in 1977.
1977 5.5
1985 4.8
1976, 4.5
1977, 5.5
1978, 4.2
1979, 4.4
1980, 4.6
1983, 4.5
1984, 4.4
1985, 4.8
1986, 4.2

This sounds like type of RB you want. But that kind of RB will never get the carries needed either to put up those numbers. We are talking 13 to 1600 yards a season here. Thats with over 300 carries a year. Craig broke the 300 carries mark just once in his career.
In 2006 we had 472 rushes and 372 passes. Duce averaged 4.3 on 244 rushes. Not bad. I will take that all day long.

Two different system and two different types of back. Both pro bowlers

CantonLegend · 05-16-2008, 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

Ya'll have this man crush on Deuce as if he carries the offense. Let me clue you into his stat line for 2006, when the Saints were the #1 offense in the league.

the fact is that every team needs a solid running game....the idea of our offense in '06 was to compliment our passing game well with a solid run game....in '07 it dropped off obviously because of injury but mostly because we were without duece....when our #1 was hurt it was obvious what we were going to do....we had to pass.....when duece is healthy we dont have to....with duece in there he allows flexability of our offense...we can end around with reggie or we can swing pass or quick 3 step drop or run up the middle or sweep....he allows up to do so much just by being on the field...there isnt another running back on our squad that allows us the flexability of all that just by simply being on the field....duece helps reggie by making the defense take care of the middle and then that leaves reggie 1-1 on the outside and usually he wins those....duece doesnt have to carry the offense to be a vital part of it....all he simply has to do is be on the field....when he was hurt last year he couldnt do that...the fact that we drafted reggie in '05 doesnt really matter because he wasnt meant to be our starting running back....he was meant to be a satellite from day 1....reggie is an outstanding player but he was never a true RB....if a team needs a RB they go after him in round 1...idk if its a need position yet but when we decide it is....we will be drafting one in the 1st round

SaintFanInATLHELL · 05-16-2008, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by CantonLegend

the fact is that every team needs a solid running game....

You use solid, I use productive. It means the same thing.

the idea of our offense in '06 was to compliment our passing game well with a solid run game....in '07 it dropped off obviously because of injury but mostly because we were without duece....

The problem here is that I always use numbers to back up claims like that. New Orleans Saints Team Encyclopedia - Pro-Football-Reference.com will give you all the Saints stats for any year you like. So let's compare the seasons:

2006: 472 rushes for 1761 yards 3.7 YPC 110 YPG

2007: 392 rushes for 1466 yards 3.7 YPC 91 YPG

So the crew averaged 5 less rushes per game and 20 less yards per game. Yet the YPC was exactly the same both years.

when our #1 was hurt it was obvious what we were going to do....we had to pass.....when duece is healthy we dont have to....with duece in there he allows flexability of our offense...

Those pesky statistics again. Brees had 580 attempts in 2006 and 652 in 2007. Only 4.5 attempts per game more.

So I guess the Saints had to pass in 2006 when Deuce played all 16 games too?

we can end around with reggie or we can swing pass or quick 3 step drop or run up the middle or sweep....he allows up to do so much just by being on the field...there isnt another running back on our squad that allows us the flexability of all that just by simply being on the field....duece helps reggie by making the defense take care of the middle and then that leaves reggie 1-1 on the outside and usually he wins those....duece doesnt have to carry the offense to be a vital part of it....all he simply has to do is be on the field....when he was hurt last year he couldnt do that...the fact that we drafted reggie in '05 doesnt really matter because he wasnt meant to be our starting running back....he was meant to be a satellite from day 1....reggie is an outstanding player but he was never a true RB....if a team needs a RB they go after him in round 1...idk if its a need position yet but when we decide it is....we will be drafting one in the 1st round

I presume you meant that Reggie wasn't meant to be our starting RB. That's still an open question.

The mistake I think you're making here is thinking that Deuce is the reason for all this flexibility. I believe it's that power I tailback slot that creates that flexibility, not the player. You have all the right reasons listed above. But I don't think that it's the player that creates the mismatches for Reggie, but having a productive back in that slot.

When Deuce got hurt Reggie moved into that power I back slot. He's much easier to contain from there because now you don't have him out on the slot or on the edge creating mismatches as he can't be two places at once.

There's no reason to think that PT23 can't get 200 rushes @ 5 YPC from the power I slot. That's productive and leaves Reggie to roam around the offense creating mismatches.

But in the end it's simply a reiteration of what I started with. The Saints' offense is a two back system where both back combine to create a productive and flexible running game.

We don't need a first round pick to to couple with Reggie to make that system work. And it doesn't have to be Deuce all the time in that slot.

Rotate all 4 guys. They can all catch, they can all block, they can all run, they can be interchangable in Paytons two back offense.

SFIAH

CantonLegend · 05-16-2008, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

The problem here is that I always use numbers to back up claims like that. New Orleans Saints Team Encyclopedia - Pro-Football-Reference.com will give you all the Saints stats for any year you like. So let's compare the seasons:

the thing about statistics is that they dont always show how a team plays....they show the outcome...but they wont show that a linebacker was man up against reggie or if a safety had to cover him instead...it wont show that the linebacker jumped on a play fake cuz duece is a real threat up the gut...u make very good points using stats and usually i love ppl that back up claims with facts and figures...however in this case....its more about overall value than it is stats....also...with the passing and rushing stats from the past 2 years....i agree we only passed a few more times.....but the run vs pass was different.....meaning...we knew in '06 that we had a guy to run up the middle and pound out those last few yards where as in '07 we didnt have that reassurance....we had to make up for it by passing those 4.5 more times or w/e u said it was....that could've meant the difference between another field goal or a first down etc...do u see where im going with this?....maybe not...maybe im just rambling....do i have a point or am i completely off the wall....i tend to do that sometimes too

SaintFanInATLHELL · 05-17-2008, 06:52 AM

Originally Posted by CantonLegend

the thing about statistics is that they dont always show how a team plays....they show the outcome...but they wont show that a linebacker was man up against reggie or if a safety had to cover him instead...it wont show that the linebacker jumped on a play fake cuz duece is a real threat up the gut...u make very good points using stats and usually i love ppl that back up claims with facts and figures...however in this case....its more about overall value than it is stats....also...with the passing and rushing stats from the past 2 years....i agree we only passed a few more times.....but the run vs pass was different.....meaning...we knew in '06 that we had a guy to run up the middle and pound out those last few yards where as in '07 we didnt have that reassurance....we had to make up for it by passing those 4.5 more times or w/e u said it was....that could've meant the difference between another field goal or a first down etc...do u see where im going with this?....maybe not...maybe im just rambling....do i have a point or am i completely off the wall....i tend to do that sometimes too

Canton,

Close your eyes and repeat after me. It's time once again for the SFIAH mantra:

The Saints lost in 2007 because the defense was awful.

26th in the league in defense.

The Saints lost in 2007 because the defense was awful.

32 passing TD given up.

The Saints lost in 2007 because the defense was awful.

30th against the pass.

The Saints lost in 2007 because the defense was awful.

Jason David. Nuff Said.

The Saints lost in 2007 because the defense was awful.

No pass rush.

The Saints lost in 2007 because the defense was awful.

Limited sacks

The Saints lost in 2007 because the defense was awful.

54 pass plays of 20 yards or more.

The Saints lost in 2007 because the defense was awful.

15 plays of 40 yards or more (tied for league high).

The Saints lost in 2007 because the defense was awful.

Made an insurance salesman (Redmond) and a rookie (Gray) look like Joe Montana.

The Saints lost in 2007 because the defense was awful.

Did not generate enough turnovers.

OK. Now you can open your eyes.

The Saints were slinging the ball all over the field because they were behind a lot of the time. Brees threw 18 picks because they were behind a lot of the time. The Saints didn't run the ball because they were behind a lot of time.

This offense finished 4th in yards and 12th in scoring last year. By the end of the year they were on their 4th back. In that game the offense still scored 25 points.

Of course they lost because the defense gave up 33.

If the Saints defense had improved their bad numbers by 50 percent, the team would have gone 11-5, and won the South.

As I keep saying, it's not about the running game, or the TE, or the receivers, or the O-line, or about anything on offense. If the Saints offense can only cut down on the turnovers, they'll be in the top 3 in yards and scoring once again.

We have the backs to keep defenses honest. That's all that needs to be done.

Just remember the mantra.

SFIAH

05-16-2008, 06:47 AM	#1
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,783	Re: Is pierre tradeable? Originally Posted by jeanpierre Re: One Game Wonders... Yes Mendenhall was behind PT on the depth chart at Illinois... And Yes he had a good game... But I remember the Saints making Flipper Anderson look like AllWorld in one game, and he did what over the course of his career?!? We needed to draft a RB in R1, but we also needed to draft a DL even more... I'm going to take you to task on this statement. The Saints drafted a RB #2 just 2 years ago. Their RB corps is productive all the way down to the 4th string guy. Deuce, Reggie, and Stecker all being hurt at the same time was a fluke, not an expectation. With all the needs this team has, and the fact that the Saints offense has been in the top 5 offenses in the league for the past 2 years simply does not point to the need for a first round draft pick at RB. If you haven't noticed, the engine of the Saints offense is Drew Brees. The running game is a complement, not a primary motivator. I totally disagree that the Saints needed a first round draft pick at RB. Ya'll have this man crush on Deuce as if he carries the offense. Let me clue you into his stat line for 2006, when the Saints were the #1 offense in the league: 244 rushes, 1057 yards, 4.3 YPC Dude, that's not even a pro bowl season, much less a man crush one. The bottom line is that the Saints offense needs a productive running game. All the explosiveness will come from the passing game. SFIAH
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.

05-16-2008, 07:48 AM	#2
hagan714 LB Mentallity Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 15,870 Blog Entries: 68	Re: Is pierre tradeable? Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL Ya'll have this man crush on Deuce as if he carries the offense. Let me clue you into his stat line for 2006, when the Saints were the #1 offense in the league: 244 rushes, 1057 yards, 4.3 YPC Dude, that's not even a pro bowl season, much less a man crush one. The bottom line is that the Saints offense needs a productive running game. All the explosiveness will come from the passing game. SFIAH Ok lets take things out of context here. Duce by no means was carrying the offense in 2006. The system has changed. This is a west coast offense so the RB will never be the featured part of the system. Roger Craigs carrier average was 4.1 YPC. 4x Pro Bowl 1985, 4.9 1987, 3.8 1988, 4.8 1989,3.9 Then again he did not have a RB like Bush sharing the backfield with him. So the fact I think he was one of the best all around backs in history is unjust? Now take a standard offense and one of the all tim greats Walter Payton was named both All-Pro and All-NFC seven times and played in nine Pro Bowl games. Payton was selected as the NFL's Most Valuable Player in 1977 and 1985, the NFL Offensive Player of the Year in 1977 and 1985 and the NFC Most Valuable Player in 1977. 1977 5.5 1985 4.8 1976, 4.5 1977, 5.5 1978, 4.2 1979, 4.4 1980, 4.6 1983, 4.5 1984, 4.4 1985, 4.8 1986, 4.2 This sounds like type of RB you want. But that kind of RB will never get the carries needed either to put up those numbers. We are talking 13 to 1600 yards a season here. Thats with over 300 carries a year. Craig broke the 300 carries mark just once in his career. In 2006 we had 472 rushes and 372 passes. Duce averaged 4.3 on 244 rushes. Not bad. I will take that all day long. Two different system and two different types of back. Both pro bowlers
	"We may have lost the game, but you'll be hurting tomorrow." Doug Atkins

05-16-2008, 08:14 AM	#3
CantonLegend 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 2,685 Blog Entries: 2	Re: Is pierre tradeable? Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL Ya'll have this man crush on Deuce as if he carries the offense. Let me clue you into his stat line for 2006, when the Saints were the #1 offense in the league. the fact is that every team needs a solid running game....the idea of our offense in '06 was to compliment our passing game well with a solid run game....in '07 it dropped off obviously because of injury but mostly because we were without duece....when our #1 was hurt it was obvious what we were going to do....we had to pass.....when duece is healthy we dont have to....with duece in there he allows flexability of our offense...we can end around with reggie or we can swing pass or quick 3 step drop or run up the middle or sweep....he allows up to do so much just by being on the field...there isnt another running back on our squad that allows us the flexability of all that just by simply being on the field....duece helps reggie by making the defense take care of the middle and then that leaves reggie 1-1 on the outside and usually he wins those....duece doesnt have to carry the offense to be a vital part of it....all he simply has to do is be on the field....when he was hurt last year he couldnt do that...the fact that we drafted reggie in '05 doesnt really matter because he wasnt meant to be our starting running back....he was meant to be a satellite from day 1....reggie is an outstanding player but he was never a true RB....if a team needs a RB they go after him in round 1...idk if its a need position yet but when we decide it is....we will be drafting one in the 1st round
	"deal with it or you can go play the saints and get trounced by 30 and you won't have to worry about it."-colin cowherd

05-16-2008, 10:43 AM	#4
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,783	Re: Is pierre tradeable? Originally Posted by CantonLegend the fact is that every team needs a solid running game.... You use solid, I use productive. It means the same thing. the idea of our offense in '06 was to compliment our passing game well with a solid run game....in '07 it dropped off obviously because of injury but mostly because we were without duece.... The problem here is that I always use numbers to back up claims like that. New Orleans Saints Team Encyclopedia - Pro-Football-Reference.com will give you all the Saints stats for any year you like. So let's compare the seasons: 2006: 472 rushes for 1761 yards 3.7 YPC 110 YPG 2007: 392 rushes for 1466 yards 3.7 YPC 91 YPG So the crew averaged 5 less rushes per game and 20 less yards per game. Yet the YPC was exactly the same both years. when our #1 was hurt it was obvious what we were going to do....we had to pass.....when duece is healthy we dont have to....with duece in there he allows flexability of our offense... Those pesky statistics again. Brees had 580 attempts in 2006 and 652 in 2007. Only 4.5 attempts per game more. So I guess the Saints had to pass in 2006 when Deuce played all 16 games too? we can end around with reggie or we can swing pass or quick 3 step drop or run up the middle or sweep....he allows up to do so much just by being on the field...there isnt another running back on our squad that allows us the flexability of all that just by simply being on the field....duece helps reggie by making the defense take care of the middle and then that leaves reggie 1-1 on the outside and usually he wins those....duece doesnt have to carry the offense to be a vital part of it....all he simply has to do is be on the field....when he was hurt last year he couldnt do that...the fact that we drafted reggie in '05 doesnt really matter because he wasnt meant to be our starting running back....he was meant to be a satellite from day 1....reggie is an outstanding player but he was never a true RB....if a team needs a RB they go after him in round 1...idk if its a need position yet but when we decide it is....we will be drafting one in the 1st round I presume you meant that Reggie wasn't meant to be our starting RB. That's still an open question. The mistake I think you're making here is thinking that Deuce is the reason for all this flexibility. I believe it's that power I tailback slot that creates that flexibility, not the player. You have all the right reasons listed above. But I don't think that it's the player that creates the mismatches for Reggie, but having a productive back in that slot. When Deuce got hurt Reggie moved into that power I back slot. He's much easier to contain from there because now you don't have him out on the slot or on the edge creating mismatches as he can't be two places at once. There's no reason to think that PT23 can't get 200 rushes @ 5 YPC from the power I slot. That's productive and leaves Reggie to roam around the offense creating mismatches. But in the end it's simply a reiteration of what I started with. The Saints' offense is a two back system where both back combine to create a productive and flexible running game. We don't need a first round pick to to couple with Reggie to make that system work. And it doesn't have to be Deuce all the time in that slot. Rotate all 4 guys. They can all catch, they can all block, they can all run, they can be interchangable in Paytons two back offense. SFIAH
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.

05-16-2008, 03:15 PM	#5
CantonLegend 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 2,685 Blog Entries: 2	Re: Is pierre tradeable? Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL The problem here is that I always use numbers to back up claims like that. New Orleans Saints Team Encyclopedia - Pro-Football-Reference.com will give you all the Saints stats for any year you like. So let's compare the seasons: the thing about statistics is that they dont always show how a team plays....they show the outcome...but they wont show that a linebacker was man up against reggie or if a safety had to cover him instead...it wont show that the linebacker jumped on a play fake cuz duece is a real threat up the gut...u make very good points using stats and usually i love ppl that back up claims with facts and figures...however in this case....its more about overall value than it is stats....also...with the passing and rushing stats from the past 2 years....i agree we only passed a few more times.....but the run vs pass was different.....meaning...we knew in '06 that we had a guy to run up the middle and pound out those last few yards where as in '07 we didnt have that reassurance....we had to make up for it by passing those 4.5 more times or w/e u said it was....that could've meant the difference between another field goal or a first down etc...do u see where im going with this?....maybe not...maybe im just rambling....do i have a point or am i completely off the wall....i tend to do that sometimes too
	"deal with it or you can go play the saints and get trounced by 30 and you won't have to worry about it."-colin cowherd

05-17-2008, 06:52 AM	#6
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,783	Re: Is pierre tradeable? Originally Posted by CantonLegend the thing about statistics is that they dont always show how a team plays....they show the outcome...but they wont show that a linebacker was man up against reggie or if a safety had to cover him instead...it wont show that the linebacker jumped on a play fake cuz duece is a real threat up the gut...u make very good points using stats and usually i love ppl that back up claims with facts and figures...however in this case....its more about overall value than it is stats....also...with the passing and rushing stats from the past 2 years....i agree we only passed a few more times.....but the run vs pass was different.....meaning...we knew in '06 that we had a guy to run up the middle and pound out those last few yards where as in '07 we didnt have that reassurance....we had to make up for it by passing those 4.5 more times or w/e u said it was....that could've meant the difference between another field goal or a first down etc...do u see where im going with this?....maybe not...maybe im just rambling....do i have a point or am i completely off the wall....i tend to do that sometimes too Canton, Close your eyes and repeat after me. It's time once again for the SFIAH mantra: The Saints lost in 2007 because the defense was awful. 26th in the league in defense. The Saints lost in 2007 because the defense was awful. 32 passing TD given up. The Saints lost in 2007 because the defense was awful. 30th against the pass. The Saints lost in 2007 because the defense was awful. Jason David. Nuff Said. The Saints lost in 2007 because the defense was awful. No pass rush. The Saints lost in 2007 because the defense was awful. Limited sacks The Saints lost in 2007 because the defense was awful. 54 pass plays of 20 yards or more. The Saints lost in 2007 because the defense was awful. 15 plays of 40 yards or more (tied for league high). The Saints lost in 2007 because the defense was awful. Made an insurance salesman (Redmond) and a rookie (Gray) look like Joe Montana. The Saints lost in 2007 because the defense was awful. Did not generate enough turnovers. OK. Now you can open your eyes. The Saints were slinging the ball all over the field because they were behind a lot of the time. Brees threw 18 picks because they were behind a lot of the time. The Saints didn't run the ball because they were behind a lot of time. This offense finished 4th in yards and 12th in scoring last year. By the end of the year they were on their 4th back. In that game the offense still scored 25 points. Of course they lost because the defense gave up 33. If the Saints defense had improved their bad numbers by 50 percent, the team would have gone 11-5, and won the South. As I keep saying, it's not about the running game, or the TE, or the receivers, or the O-line, or about anything on offense. If the Saints offense can only cut down on the turnovers, they'll be in the top 3 in yards and scoring once again. We have the backs to keep defenses honest. That's all that needs to be done. Just remember the mantra. SFIAH
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.