So much critcizm-- So little Facts.

BillyCarpenter1 · 09-03-2003, 03:06 PM

WhoDat -- You have this unique way of avoiding the facts that I\'m telling you. The fact is you said an owner is more concened with making money FIRST. Now -- I stated that every team spends about the same thing every year. Remember the cap? Instead you go in every other direction possible. Stick to what we were debating. You\'re wrong and you know you\'re wrong. Don\'t you think if THE MOST IMPORTANT THING WAS MONEY -- they could have made more money elsewhere?

[Edited on 3/9/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

WhoDat · 09-04-2003, 03:32 PM

Billy, if you think winning is more important to owners than money you\'re plum wrong. How can you even begin to believe that\'s a FACT?!?! It doesn\'t even make sense.

Consider - is a sports franchise a business? Yes. Can it survive if it loses money every year? NO. Thus, making money will always be the most important thing, otherwise THERE IS NO FRANCHISE.

Why did Benson threaten to move the Saints? B/c they weren\'t playing well, or b/c HE WASN\'T MAKING ENOUGH MONEY? Why does he want a new stadium? More suites means more money in HIS pocket. Why will the Bears NEVER get rid of Brian Urlacher? He\'s a good player yes, but more importantly his jersey is the highest selling in the league. That\'s merchandising money Billy. You think networks show the games b/c they like them. If you think this league, the teams in it, and the players and coaches and basically everyone involved are not driven by money you\'re sorely mistaken. Yes, occassionally a guy passes on money to play for a contender or with his buddies, etc. But those players do that when the difference in salary is small. Money makes this league go round billy - if you deny that you\'re either incredibly naive or incredibly dumb.

BillyCarpenter1 · 09-04-2003, 04:05 PM

WhoDat -- Here\'s how it works, my man!! There are only so many ways that an owner can make money. All teams split an equal share of the TV money. Then you have ticket sales -- Winning puts asses in the seats. Then you have concession sales, clothing sales, and naming rights.

Now, your original point was that the #1 goal is to make money !!! All of that is based off of winning. You don\'t win -- then you don\'t sell tickets or merchadise. Furthermore, the Saints GM has nothing to do with selling tickets or mechandise. He is responsible for spending the money -- He can only spend so much because of the cap.

You might be a broker but you know little about business my man !!

Can you name me one front office person in the NFL that has been fired because the team lost money?? Because I can name a bunch that have been fired because the team wan\'t winning. CHECK MATE!!!

[Edited on 4/9/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

lumm0x · 09-04-2003, 04:30 PM

There are only so many ways that an owner can make money....Winning puts asses in the seats. Then you have concession sales, clothing sales, and naming rights......Furthermore, the Saints GM has nothing to do with selling tickets or mechandise....Can you name me one front office person in the NFL that has been fired because the team lost money??

What you\'ve stated is: if a team isn\'t winning you don\'t get people to come to the game. And then you say that the GM has nothing to do with selling tickets? If your GM doesn\'t get the right coach who then aids in getting the right players, who then perform up to expectation, he gets fired. The GM orchestrates the success of a team....it\'s his job to juggle the issue of player salaries to fit under that cap and field the best product for the money.

The GM has everything to do with making money.

And any GM that ever got fired was because he wasn\'t doing those things.

jm · 09-04-2003, 04:30 PM

Bill, you stated that you heard several NFL owners say that they made very little money as an owner in the NFL and they could have invested their money in 1000 other places and made money. Pardon my ignorance, I didn\'t realize that the profits were that bad in the NFL, could you name those several owners and when they said that?

[Edited on 4/9/2003 by jm]

[Edited on 4/9/2003 by jm]

BillyCarpenter1 · 09-04-2003, 04:33 PM

Jerry Jones and Al Davis off the top of my head. These owners can and HAVE made more money outside of the NFL. How do you think they got the money to buy the teams?

You don\'t see General Electric or General Motors rushing out to by a team because it is so profitable. Do you?

BillyCarpenter1 · 09-04-2003, 04:38 PM

There are only so many ways that an owner can make money....Winning puts asses in the seats. Then you have concession sales, clothing sales, and naming rights......Furthermore, the Saints GM has nothing to do with selling tickets or mechandise....Can you name me one front office person in the NFL that has been fired because the team lost money??

What you\'ve stated is: if a team isn\'t winning you don\'t get people to come to the game. And then you say that the GM has nothing to do with selling tickets? If your GM doesn\'t get the right coach who then aids in getting the right players, who then perform up to expectation, he gets fired. The GM orchestrates the success of a team....it\'s his job to juggle the issue of player salaries to fit under that cap and field the best product for the money.

The GM has everything to do with making money.

And any GM that ever got fired was because he wasn\'t doing those things.

That\'s my point exactly. The GM isn\'t directly responsible for selling tickets. He is responsible for the team winning. Winning = Money. If the GM puts a winning team on the field and the team doesn\'t make money there is nothing he can do about it. The marketing team can however. How much control the GM has over marketing -- I have no idea.

WhoDat · 09-04-2003, 05:07 PM

GM and GE CAN\'T run in to buy teams, that\'s why they\'re not. The NFL approves every sale of every team and they only allow private individuals, or groups of individuals, to own teams.

Answer one question for me Billy - when you hear Tom Benson speak, how often is he talking about the players and the team\'s success, and how often is he talking about his profits, moving the team, a new stadium, naming right, corporate sponsorship... etc?

The NFL is about money first and foremost. THAT\'S WHY PROFESSIONAL SPORTS EXIST BILLY. That\'s why they\'re PROFESSIONAL and not AMATEUR. Olympic athletes train just as hard if not harder than players in the NFL and they don\'t get paid for it. They truly do it b/c they love it... well, now there are some endorsement deals involved, but... point is - every NFL player COULD play for 100,000 and still be in the top 5% of wage earners in the country. They get paid so much b/c it\'s big business, and big business doesn\'t get big unless someone is profiting - a lot.

BillyCarpenter1 · 09-04-2003, 05:14 PM

Believe me when I tell you that if GE wanted to but a team that they could. You believe what you want to believe. It really makes no difference to me. Paul Allen owns the Seahawks. Know who Paul Allen is? One of the owners of Microsoft. He didn\'t buy the team because it was the most profitable venture he could go into. He also is making as much money as other teams because they ain\'t winning. They still have 25,000 plus tickets for the game Sunday. Don\'t you think that if they went to the palyoffs last year that it would be a sellout? If you can\'t see what I\'m telling you -- it\'s only because you don\'t want to admit you\'re wrong.

Winning = Money

Money does not = Winning

You don\'t win = Losing Money.

I\'m sure there are expecptions to the rule but that\'s the way it works.

WhoDat · 09-04-2003, 05:20 PM

Chicago Cubs Billy... and the Bears for that matter. Sell out every game and neither have been good for more than a season in a long time.

Ticket sales DO NOT go to owners by the way. They go to the league and the league divides that money evenly. Only sales of tickets for suites go directly to the owners... do you hear Benson screaming to add more seats or more boxes to the Dome?

We\'ve already established that you can make more money other ways than owning a franchise billy. You\'re not teaching us anything new. The problem here is that you\'re making this huge leap. Yes, owners have to care about the game to give up some profits to own a team, but NO owner would continue to own a team if they lost money every year. They may overlook some losses or diminished profits to own a team, but they do NOT forego all profits. As long as it is a business they are out to make money.

09-03-2003, 03:06 PM	#11
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	So much critcizm-- So little Facts. WhoDat -- You have this unique way of avoiding the facts that I\'m telling you. The fact is you said an owner is more concened with making money FIRST. Now -- I stated that every team spends about the same thing every year. Remember the cap? Instead you go in every other direction possible. Stick to what we were debating. You\'re wrong and you know you\'re wrong. Don\'t you think if THE MOST IMPORTANT THING WAS MONEY -- they could have made more money elsewhere? [Edited on 3/9/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

09-04-2003, 03:32 PM	#12
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	So much critcizm-- So little Facts. Billy, if you think winning is more important to owners than money you\'re plum wrong. How can you even begin to believe that\'s a FACT?!?! It doesn\'t even make sense. Consider - is a sports franchise a business? Yes. Can it survive if it loses money every year? NO. Thus, making money will always be the most important thing, otherwise THERE IS NO FRANCHISE. Why did Benson threaten to move the Saints? B/c they weren\'t playing well, or b/c HE WASN\'T MAKING ENOUGH MONEY? Why does he want a new stadium? More suites means more money in HIS pocket. Why will the Bears NEVER get rid of Brian Urlacher? He\'s a good player yes, but more importantly his jersey is the highest selling in the league. That\'s merchandising money Billy. You think networks show the games b/c they like them. If you think this league, the teams in it, and the players and coaches and basically everyone involved are not driven by money you\'re sorely mistaken. Yes, occassionally a guy passes on money to play for a contender or with his buddies, etc. But those players do that when the difference in salary is small. Money makes this league go round billy - if you deny that you\'re either incredibly naive or incredibly dumb.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

09-04-2003, 04:05 PM	#13
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	So much critcizm-- So little Facts. WhoDat -- Here\'s how it works, my man!! There are only so many ways that an owner can make money. All teams split an equal share of the TV money. Then you have ticket sales -- Winning puts asses in the seats. Then you have concession sales, clothing sales, and naming rights. Now, your original point was that the #1 goal is to make money !!! All of that is based off of winning. You don\'t win -- then you don\'t sell tickets or merchadise. Furthermore, the Saints GM has nothing to do with selling tickets or mechandise. He is responsible for spending the money -- He can only spend so much because of the cap. You might be a broker but you know little about business my man !! Can you name me one front office person in the NFL that has been fired because the team lost money?? Because I can name a bunch that have been fired because the team wan\'t winning. CHECK MATE!!! [Edited on 4/9/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

09-04-2003, 04:30 PM	#14
lumm0x Resident antediluvian Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,026	So much critcizm-- So little Facts. There are only so many ways that an owner can make money....Winning puts asses in the seats. Then you have concession sales, clothing sales, and naming rights......Furthermore, the Saints GM has nothing to do with selling tickets or mechandise....Can you name me one front office person in the NFL that has been fired because the team lost money?? What you\'ve stated is: if a team isn\'t winning you don\'t get people to come to the game. And then you say that the GM has nothing to do with selling tickets? If your GM doesn\'t get the right coach who then aids in getting the right players, who then perform up to expectation, he gets fired. The GM orchestrates the success of a team....it\'s his job to juggle the issue of player salaries to fit under that cap and field the best product for the money. The GM has everything to do with making money. And any GM that ever got fired was because he wasn\'t doing those things.

09-04-2003, 04:30 PM	#15
jm 100th Post Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 133	So much critcizm-- So little Facts. Bill, you stated that you heard several NFL owners say that they made very little money as an owner in the NFL and they could have invested their money in 1000 other places and made money. Pardon my ignorance, I didn\'t realize that the profits were that bad in the NFL, could you name those several owners and when they said that? [Edited on 4/9/2003 by jm] [Edited on 4/9/2003 by jm]
jm 100th Post Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 133

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09-04-2003, 04:33 PM	#16
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	So much critcizm-- So little Facts. Jerry Jones and Al Davis off the top of my head. These owners can and HAVE made more money outside of the NFL. How do you think they got the money to buy the teams? You don\'t see General Electric or General Motors rushing out to by a team because it is so profitable. Do you?
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

09-04-2003, 04:38 PM	#17
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	So much critcizm-- So little Facts. There are only so many ways that an owner can make money....Winning puts asses in the seats. Then you have concession sales, clothing sales, and naming rights......Furthermore, the Saints GM has nothing to do with selling tickets or mechandise....Can you name me one front office person in the NFL that has been fired because the team lost money?? What you\'ve stated is: if a team isn\'t winning you don\'t get people to come to the game. And then you say that the GM has nothing to do with selling tickets? If your GM doesn\'t get the right coach who then aids in getting the right players, who then perform up to expectation, he gets fired. The GM orchestrates the success of a team....it\'s his job to juggle the issue of player salaries to fit under that cap and field the best product for the money. The GM has everything to do with making money. And any GM that ever got fired was because he wasn\'t doing those things. That\'s my point exactly. The GM isn\'t directly responsible for selling tickets. He is responsible for the team winning. Winning = Money. If the GM puts a winning team on the field and the team doesn\'t make money there is nothing he can do about it. The marketing team can however. How much control the GM has over marketing -- I have no idea.
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

09-04-2003, 05:07 PM	#18
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	So much critcizm-- So little Facts. GM and GE CAN\'T run in to buy teams, that\'s why they\'re not. The NFL approves every sale of every team and they only allow private individuals, or groups of individuals, to own teams. Answer one question for me Billy - when you hear Tom Benson speak, how often is he talking about the players and the team\'s success, and how often is he talking about his profits, moving the team, a new stadium, naming right, corporate sponsorship... etc? The NFL is about money first and foremost. THAT\'S WHY PROFESSIONAL SPORTS EXIST BILLY. That\'s why they\'re PROFESSIONAL and not AMATEUR. Olympic athletes train just as hard if not harder than players in the NFL and they don\'t get paid for it. They truly do it b/c they love it... well, now there are some endorsement deals involved, but... point is - every NFL player COULD play for 100,000 and still be in the top 5% of wage earners in the country. They get paid so much b/c it\'s big business, and big business doesn\'t get big unless someone is profiting - a lot.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

09-04-2003, 05:14 PM	#19
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	So much critcizm-- So little Facts. Believe me when I tell you that if GE wanted to but a team that they could. You believe what you want to believe. It really makes no difference to me. Paul Allen owns the Seahawks. Know who Paul Allen is? One of the owners of Microsoft. He didn\'t buy the team because it was the most profitable venture he could go into. He also is making as much money as other teams because they ain\'t winning. They still have 25,000 plus tickets for the game Sunday. Don\'t you think that if they went to the palyoffs last year that it would be a sellout? If you can\'t see what I\'m telling you -- it\'s only because you don\'t want to admit you\'re wrong. Winning = Money Money does not = Winning You don\'t win = Losing Money. I\'m sure there are expecptions to the rule but that\'s the way it works.
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

09-04-2003, 05:20 PM	#20
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	So much critcizm-- So little Facts. Chicago Cubs Billy... and the Bears for that matter. Sell out every game and neither have been good for more than a season in a long time. Ticket sales DO NOT go to owners by the way. They go to the league and the league divides that money evenly. Only sales of tickets for suites go directly to the owners... do you hear Benson screaming to add more seats or more boxes to the Dome? We\'ve already established that you can make more money other ways than owning a franchise billy. You\'re not teaching us anything new. The problem here is that you\'re making this huge leap. Yes, owners have to care about the game to give up some profits to own a team, but NO owner would continue to own a team if they lost money every year. They may overlook some losses or diminished profits to own a team, but they do NOT forego all profits. As long as it is a business they are out to make money.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"