So much critcizm-- So little Facts.

BillyCarpenter1 · 09-03-2003, 08:29 AM

It certainly seems as if the Saints front office is doing everything they can do to sign Lawyer Milloy. This really comes as no surprise to me because we certainly have a big need at saftety and we have the cap space to do the deal. But, just because we have a need and the money doesn't guarantee that we are going to get Milloy, Ultimately it's going to come down to who Milloy want's to play for. Also, some teams like the Redskiins could drive the price up so high that it forces other teams out of the picture. We have only heard what has been released through the media and I'm sure there are many things we don't know and never will.

This situation is typical of most free agent bidding wars. Several teams stand in line, with check books in hand, trying everything they can do to sign the coveted player. Sometimes the deal gets done and sometimes it doesn't work out. What fans need to realize is that they do not no everything that happens behind the scene. Even if they did know everything that happend behind the scene, you still need to realize that every team has different reasons why they ultimately back out of negociations or why they never went after the player at all.

I don't pretend to know why the Saints haven't gone after some of the big name players that some fans wanted, but I don't call into question the organization's desire to win. I have heard several fans not only question it, but state it as fact.

How some fans can call into question the Saints organizations commitment to win based off what players they feel like the Saints should have signed is beyond me. Especially since they have no idea if they could have gotten the player or not. For all of you that have questioned the front office desire to win, I think you should look at the big picture, and understand where this team come from and where it is now. That doesn't happen because the front office isn't commited to winning.

Never I have I heard so much criticizim based of so little facts to back it up. Of couse this isn't unique to only the Saints. You always have those fans out there, no matter what team, that feel like they are better GM's than their team has.

[Edited on 3/9/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

lumm0x · 09-03-2003, 10:11 AM

Billy, you\'re right that the fans are completely in the dark with contract negotiating, inside knowledge of players and cap manuevering within the NFL. Fans should not be in position to call a team\'s desie to win into play, but, although I\'m not saying that I am doing that with the Saints, I can clearly see that some franchises do not have the ability to create a winner because of a lack of competent front office staff.

For example, do you believe that the current Cardinals management has the ability as talent evaluators, contract negotiators, promoters and coaches? These guys have a well established history (with current staff) of making bizarre draft choices, bringing in free agents and way over paying for them, bungling free agent deals, and fielding terrible teams. The fans should not be questioning the ownerships desire to win, but their ability to do so.

At what point are fans allowed to question the management of a team? There is a famous business proverb that says \"if you\'re not moving forwards, you\'re moving backwards\". You constantly use the term \"give them the benefit of the doubt\". What you are really saying is that as long as the team is making moves they have potential scapegoats for failure. It is clear that we haven\'t played a game this year, but should we finish 9-7, would you agree that we have hit the wall of progress with this team management? Year one was a huge jump when they came to the league. Year two was nice stability of the growth. Year three was illustrating that thye are struggling with the hurdle......and now year four, if they don\'t climb the hurdle.......do we continue to be lap dogs in blind faith of our masters?

I just want to know where you stand come year end, win or lose.

BillyCarpenter1 · 09-03-2003, 01:35 PM

LummOx -- There is an old saying that goes \" If you\'re not moving foward you\'re moving backward.\" However, just because there are ups and downs during a certain period doesn\'t mean you should fire everyone and start over. In a perfect world the Saints would get better and better every year and we would go to the Super Bowl.

Well, this ain\'t a perfect world and last year must be considered a set back for the defense. Does this mean you should over look the big picture here? When Ford Motor Company has a couple of down years, should you fire everyone? My point is, you can\'t just say because we had a couple of set backs that everyone must be fired and overlook the success that they have had.

Everyone has the right to question everything I suppose. It\'s easy to play monday morning QB and point out mistakes. Sure, there have been set backs but I have a hard time following anyones reasoning when they talk as if the Saints front office has hit a wall and doesn\'t have the capiability of getting us over the hump.

Now, I\'m not saying they can. What I am saying is-- it is unfair to say that when you take everthing in to consideration. You got to learn to crawl before you walk and learn how to walk before you run. Sometimes you\'re going to fall down but you\'ve got to get back up. Jim Haslett and Co. hasn\'t fallen down enough IMO. As far as when I would consider firing everyone and starting over. Hmmmmmm... That\'s hard to say because there are so many variables that would have to be taken into consideration.

[Edited on 3/9/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

lumm0x · 09-03-2003, 01:53 PM

They seem to have done that on defense though. They pretty much fired everyone and started over there. They seem to have done nothing but move backwards defensively since Haslett came on board. Now I\'m not saying that this is rounds to revamp the team management, but if they don\'t show progress defensively this year I would think it very fair to call for a change in D-coordinator.

BillyCarpenter1 · 09-03-2003, 01:56 PM

Now I have no problem with that. And the reason I have no problem with that is Venturi has never showed me anything. The rest of the coaches have.

WhoDat · 09-03-2003, 02:38 PM

That\'s interesting... what? What have the other coaches shown you?

I mean, Haslett is supposed to be the manager of the team right? But he doesn\'t write the offensive plays, McCarthy does that. Venturi on D. And those guys call the plays on game day too. Sure, Haslett may help determine strategy - for a game, for the direction of the team, etc. But he\'s not calling or writing plays. Neither is he scouting players - we have talent scouts for that (see Meuller), or negotiating contracts (see Loomis)...

Haslett\'s ONLY job, is to make sure OTHERS are doing their job correctly - that relates to some degree to the personnel staff, but mostly to his coaches. If the defense does not get better this season it is as much Haslett\'s fault as it is Venturi\'s. That\'s the way it works in business. When a VP screws up and costs a company millions - he may get fired, but his boss usually goes with him for not fixing the situation before it got worse.

If the defense hasn\'t made big strides by week 6 or 8, Haslett better step in and take the reigns (it\'s not like he hasn\'t been a d coord before), or else he is in the same boat as Venturi... at least from where I\'m sitting.

As for questioning their commitment to win - I don\'t do that. Like Lumm0x said, I question their ability. Further, there is a thin line with ANY NFL team between dedication to winning and profitability. These are corporations, and while they may be different than your average company, their goal is the same as any other company\'s - Maximize shareholder equity. The first purpose of the New Orleans Saints is to make Tom Benson money. The second goal is to win a Super Bowl... why? B/c success of the team means more money for Benson. You think these guys spend $300 million for sh!ts and giggles?

BillyCarpenter1 · 09-03-2003, 02:47 PM

I read your post 3 times WhoDat and I still don\'t get what you\'re saying. What\'s your point?

WhoDat · 09-03-2003, 02:57 PM

Two points:

First, I\'m agreeing with Lumm0x. Ability to win and desire to win are different things. No one gets to work with an NFL team at any level if they don\'t want to win - but that doesn\'t mean that they have the ability to get their team to that point.

Secondly, and this is important to remember. This is a business. Benson is out to make money FIRST, and put a good team on the field SECOND. So if you work for him, or any other owner for that matter, the best way to keep your job is to make sure that the owner\'s bottom line is as big as possible.

Many people here believe that when the Saints don\'t make moves for players it is b/c they feel like they can get beeter value or more players elsewhere. I\'m sure that\'s true to some degree - but how do you know that at least some part of that isn\'t simply covering the owner\'s a$$ and making sure his palms stay greased?

BillyCarpenter1 · 09-03-2003, 03:23 PM

Secondly, and this is important to remember. This is a business. Benson is out to make money FIRST, and put a good team on the field SECOND. So if you work for him, or any other owner for that matter, the best way to keep your job is to make sure that the owner\'s bottom line is as big as possible

I have heard several owners say that they make very little money as an owner of a NFL team. They also said they could have picked a 1000 different things to invest their money in that would have been much more profitable. Further more, each team can spend only so much money per year and most are at that limit every year.

WhoDat · 09-03-2003, 04:01 PM

Yes Billy, and there is a correlation between success on the field and earnings for owners...

Obviously anyone who owns a sports franchise is going to have some passion for that game - however, you don\'t get enough money to own a franchise by spending money frivilously. NFL owners make money with their teams.

Further, you\'ve seemed to be agast that someone would question the \"front office\'s\" dedication to winning, when in fact, most of the people who work in the front office are concerned with PROFITS - that\'s why football operations is seperate from business operations. Now, again, I won\'t question our personnel\'s dedication to winning, but I will question their ability. Do you think the executives at K-Mart want to fail? Do you think they are happy that 60% of WalMart\'s customers pass a K-Mart on their way to WalMart? No, they don\'t WANT that to happen... but it also sure seems to me like they CAN\'T do anything to change that. Haslett and CO. aren\'t happy missing the playoffs - the question is do they have the ability to do something about that? If not this year, how many more years do you give them before enough is enough?

You\'re the one who keeps talking about how much more talented this team is than any other Saints team in history. If that\'s the case, then this group is rare, and shouldn\'t be squandered. They MUST live up to their FULL potential and time is of the essence. Now, do you think 9-7 and missing the playoffs is their FULL potential? If they don\'t live up again this year that will make three years in a row. How much more time do you give this coaching staff with our special and rare group of talented players?

09-03-2003, 08:29 AM	#1
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	So much critcizm-- So little Facts. It certainly seems as if the Saints front office is doing everything they can do to sign Lawyer Milloy. This really comes as no surprise to me because we certainly have a big need at saftety and we have the cap space to do the deal. But, just because we have a need and the money doesn't guarantee that we are going to get Milloy, Ultimately it's going to come down to who Milloy want's to play for. Also, some teams like the Redskiins could drive the price up so high that it forces other teams out of the picture. We have only heard what has been released through the media and I'm sure there are many things we don't know and never will. This situation is typical of most free agent bidding wars. Several teams stand in line, with check books in hand, trying everything they can do to sign the coveted player. Sometimes the deal gets done and sometimes it doesn't work out. What fans need to realize is that they do not no everything that happens behind the scene. Even if they did know everything that happend behind the scene, you still need to realize that every team has different reasons why they ultimately back out of negociations or why they never went after the player at all. I don't pretend to know why the Saints haven't gone after some of the big name players that some fans wanted, but I don't call into question the organization's desire to win. I have heard several fans not only question it, but state it as fact. How some fans can call into question the Saints organizations commitment to win based off what players they feel like the Saints should have signed is beyond me. Especially since they have no idea if they could have gotten the player or not. For all of you that have questioned the front office desire to win, I think you should look at the big picture, and understand where this team come from and where it is now. That doesn't happen because the front office isn't commited to winning. Never I have I heard so much criticizim based of so little facts to back it up. Of couse this isn't unique to only the Saints. You always have those fans out there, no matter what team, that feel like they are better GM's than their team has. [Edited on 3/9/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

09-03-2003, 10:11 AM	#2
lumm0x Resident antediluvian Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,026	So much critcizm-- So little Facts. Billy, you\'re right that the fans are completely in the dark with contract negotiating, inside knowledge of players and cap manuevering within the NFL. Fans should not be in position to call a team\'s desie to win into play, but, although I\'m not saying that I am doing that with the Saints, I can clearly see that some franchises do not have the ability to create a winner because of a lack of competent front office staff. For example, do you believe that the current Cardinals management has the ability as talent evaluators, contract negotiators, promoters and coaches? These guys have a well established history (with current staff) of making bizarre draft choices, bringing in free agents and way over paying for them, bungling free agent deals, and fielding terrible teams. The fans should not be questioning the ownerships desire to win, but their ability to do so. At what point are fans allowed to question the management of a team? There is a famous business proverb that says \"if you\'re not moving forwards, you\'re moving backwards\". You constantly use the term \"give them the benefit of the doubt\". What you are really saying is that as long as the team is making moves they have potential scapegoats for failure. It is clear that we haven\'t played a game this year, but should we finish 9-7, would you agree that we have hit the wall of progress with this team management? Year one was a huge jump when they came to the league. Year two was nice stability of the growth. Year three was illustrating that thye are struggling with the hurdle......and now year four, if they don\'t climb the hurdle.......do we continue to be lap dogs in blind faith of our masters? I just want to know where you stand come year end, win or lose.

09-03-2003, 01:35 PM	#3
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	So much critcizm-- So little Facts. LummOx -- There is an old saying that goes \" If you\'re not moving foward you\'re moving backward.\" However, just because there are ups and downs during a certain period doesn\'t mean you should fire everyone and start over. In a perfect world the Saints would get better and better every year and we would go to the Super Bowl. Well, this ain\'t a perfect world and last year must be considered a set back for the defense. Does this mean you should over look the big picture here? When Ford Motor Company has a couple of down years, should you fire everyone? My point is, you can\'t just say because we had a couple of set backs that everyone must be fired and overlook the success that they have had. Everyone has the right to question everything I suppose. It\'s easy to play monday morning QB and point out mistakes. Sure, there have been set backs but I have a hard time following anyones reasoning when they talk as if the Saints front office has hit a wall and doesn\'t have the capiability of getting us over the hump. Now, I\'m not saying they can. What I am saying is-- it is unfair to say that when you take everthing in to consideration. You got to learn to crawl before you walk and learn how to walk before you run. Sometimes you\'re going to fall down but you\'ve got to get back up. Jim Haslett and Co. hasn\'t fallen down enough IMO. As far as when I would consider firing everyone and starting over. Hmmmmmm... That\'s hard to say because there are so many variables that would have to be taken into consideration. [Edited on 3/9/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

09-03-2003, 01:53 PM	#4
lumm0x Resident antediluvian Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,026	So much critcizm-- So little Facts. They seem to have done that on defense though. They pretty much fired everyone and started over there. They seem to have done nothing but move backwards defensively since Haslett came on board. Now I\'m not saying that this is rounds to revamp the team management, but if they don\'t show progress defensively this year I would think it very fair to call for a change in D-coordinator.

09-03-2003, 01:56 PM	#5
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	So much critcizm-- So little Facts. Now I have no problem with that. And the reason I have no problem with that is Venturi has never showed me anything. The rest of the coaches have.
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

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09-03-2003, 02:38 PM	#6
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	So much critcizm-- So little Facts. That\'s interesting... what? What have the other coaches shown you? I mean, Haslett is supposed to be the manager of the team right? But he doesn\'t write the offensive plays, McCarthy does that. Venturi on D. And those guys call the plays on game day too. Sure, Haslett may help determine strategy - for a game, for the direction of the team, etc. But he\'s not calling or writing plays. Neither is he scouting players - we have talent scouts for that (see Meuller), or negotiating contracts (see Loomis)... Haslett\'s ONLY job, is to make sure OTHERS are doing their job correctly - that relates to some degree to the personnel staff, but mostly to his coaches. If the defense does not get better this season it is as much Haslett\'s fault as it is Venturi\'s. That\'s the way it works in business. When a VP screws up and costs a company millions - he may get fired, but his boss usually goes with him for not fixing the situation before it got worse. If the defense hasn\'t made big strides by week 6 or 8, Haslett better step in and take the reigns (it\'s not like he hasn\'t been a d coord before), or else he is in the same boat as Venturi... at least from where I\'m sitting. As for questioning their commitment to win - I don\'t do that. Like Lumm0x said, I question their ability. Further, there is a thin line with ANY NFL team between dedication to winning and profitability. These are corporations, and while they may be different than your average company, their goal is the same as any other company\'s - Maximize shareholder equity. The first purpose of the New Orleans Saints is to make Tom Benson money. The second goal is to win a Super Bowl... why? B/c success of the team means more money for Benson. You think these guys spend $300 million for sh!ts and giggles?
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

09-03-2003, 02:47 PM	#7
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	So much critcizm-- So little Facts. I read your post 3 times WhoDat and I still don\'t get what you\'re saying. What\'s your point?
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

09-03-2003, 02:57 PM	#8
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	So much critcizm-- So little Facts. Two points: First, I\'m agreeing with Lumm0x. Ability to win and desire to win are different things. No one gets to work with an NFL team at any level if they don\'t want to win - but that doesn\'t mean that they have the ability to get their team to that point. Secondly, and this is important to remember. This is a business. Benson is out to make money FIRST, and put a good team on the field SECOND. So if you work for him, or any other owner for that matter, the best way to keep your job is to make sure that the owner\'s bottom line is as big as possible. Many people here believe that when the Saints don\'t make moves for players it is b/c they feel like they can get beeter value or more players elsewhere. I\'m sure that\'s true to some degree - but how do you know that at least some part of that isn\'t simply covering the owner\'s a$$ and making sure his palms stay greased?
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

09-03-2003, 03:23 PM	#9
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	So much critcizm-- So little Facts. Secondly, and this is important to remember. This is a business. Benson is out to make money FIRST, and put a good team on the field SECOND. So if you work for him, or any other owner for that matter, the best way to keep your job is to make sure that the owner\'s bottom line is as big as possible I have heard several owners say that they make very little money as an owner of a NFL team. They also said they could have picked a 1000 different things to invest their money in that would have been much more profitable. Further more, each team can spend only so much money per year and most are at that limit every year.
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

09-03-2003, 04:01 PM	#10
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	So much critcizm-- So little Facts. Yes Billy, and there is a correlation between success on the field and earnings for owners... Obviously anyone who owns a sports franchise is going to have some passion for that game - however, you don\'t get enough money to own a franchise by spending money frivilously. NFL owners make money with their teams. Further, you\'ve seemed to be agast that someone would question the \"front office\'s\" dedication to winning, when in fact, most of the people who work in the front office are concerned with PROFITS - that\'s why football operations is seperate from business operations. Now, again, I won\'t question our personnel\'s dedication to winning, but I will question their ability. Do you think the executives at K-Mart want to fail? Do you think they are happy that 60% of WalMart\'s customers pass a K-Mart on their way to WalMart? No, they don\'t WANT that to happen... but it also sure seems to me like they CAN\'T do anything to change that. Haslett and CO. aren\'t happy missing the playoffs - the question is do they have the ability to do something about that? If not this year, how many more years do you give them before enough is enough? You\'re the one who keeps talking about how much more talented this team is than any other Saints team in history. If that\'s the case, then this group is rare, and shouldn\'t be squandered. They MUST live up to their FULL potential and time is of the essence. Now, do you think 9-7 and missing the playoffs is their FULL potential? If they don\'t live up again this year that will make three years in a row. How much more time do you give this coaching staff with our special and rare group of talented players?
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"