Is Rick Venturi Doing A Better Job With The Defense?

nocloning · 09-20-2003, 03:33 PM

To answer lumm0x: It\'s more problematic to define a great defensive player than a great offensive player. RBs can easily be evaluated by yards and TDs. How about a great corner who simply takes the best receiver of a team out of the game week-in and week-out because QBs are afraid to throw anywhere he might get his hands on the ball? How about a great defensive lineman who gets double-teamed on every play and still manages to collapse the pocket on some plays?
They may end with 0 tackles and they still were a force.
So team success, Pro Bowl spots and obviously a spot in Canton are ways to tell he was an elite player.

lumm0x · 09-20-2003, 06:07 PM

If it\'s stats, pro bowls, team success, super bowls, length of career, hall of fame....all together....

then the 72 Dolpins defense must have had about 6 \"elite\" players on it. That team has the individual stats, team stats, super bowls, durable starters, and more hall of famers than any other team in football.They were no name by no means.

BillyCarpenter1 · 09-20-2003, 09:17 PM

http://cbs.sportsline.com/u/ce/featu...217_59,00.html

No-Names leave their mark
By Anthony Holden
Special to SportsLine.com

Just days before his Dallas Cowboys were to meet the Miami Dolphins in Super Bowl VI at Tulane Stadium in New Orleans, coach Tom Landry was asked to assess the Miami defense that had allowed just 174 points during the 1971 regular season.

Safety Jake Scott was a force in the
\"I can\'t recall their names,\" Landry said, \"but they are a matter of great concern to us.\" Thus was born the \"No-Name Defense.\"

While they weren\'t too much of a concern to the Cowboys on Super Sunday as Dallas rolled to a 24-3 victory, Miami\'s unsung defense would go on to key pro football\'s only perfect season (17-0) and help deliver back-to-back Super Bowl championships in 1972 and \'73.

Five offensive players from Miami\'s 1972 perfect team have made it to the Pro Football Hall of Fame (fullback Larry Csonka, guard Larry Little, quarterback Bob Griese, wide receiver Paul Warfield and center Jim Langer), but not one member of the defense has been enshrined.

\"Bothersome,\" is how coach Don Shula reacts to that fact. \"They took a lot of pride in being unselfish, but we had some great performances. Nick Buoniconti, Dick Anderson and Manny Fernandez are all deserving.\"

Bill Arnsparger, the defensive coordinator and architect of that group, thinks the unit should be enshrined collectively. \"The No-Names as a group should be inducted into the Hall of Fame,\" Arnsparger said. \"It would be unique, but it would be the only appropriate way to credit them. You can\'t single out one player. Nobody knew who they were, and they all played selflessly.\"

This collective group of No-Names were Fernandez, Bob Heinz, Vern Den Herder and Bill Stanfill, linebackers Nick Buoniconti, Bob Matheson, Mike Kolen and Doug Swift, cornerbacks Tim Foley and Curtis Johnson, and safeties Jake Scott and Dick Anderson. Individually, maybe they weren\'t the greatest players at their positions, but collectively, they were as good as any defense in the history of the game.

N O - N A M E S
LDE -- Vern Den Herder
LDT -- Manny Fernandez
RDT -- Bob Heinz
RDE -- Bill Stanfill
LLB -- Doug Swift
MLB -- Nick Buoniconti
RLB -- Mike Kolen
LCB -- Tim Foley
RCB -- Curtis Johnson
SS -- Jake Scott
FS -- Dick Anderson

\"They wouldn\'t beat you up physically,\" said Langer, who had to practice against this unit every day. \"But they got the job done.\"

Pittsburgh Steelers quarterback Terry Bradshaw found this out in the 1972 AFC Championship Game. \"The Dolphins didn\'t scare us,\" said Bradshaw, who was one week removed from having thrown the pass that resulted in the Immaculate Reception by Franco Harris, which beat Oakland in the divisional playoffs. \"They didn\'t have those mean, intimidating people. That defense of theirs, basically nice guys. They didn\'t have a Mean Joe Greene or a Mad Dog White like we had.\" Those nice guys held the Steelers to just 13 first downs and 250 yards as the Dolphins won their second straight AFC title with a 21-17 win.

In 1972, the No-Name defense gave up just 18 touchdowns in 14 regular-season games, and five of those came in the fourth quarter of one-sided routs. The Dolphins intercepted 26 passes, recorded 33 sacks, and allowed NFL lows in yards (3,297) and points (171).

Although Miami lost two games the following season, Arnsparger\'s unit played even better. It allowed a league-low 150 points and 15 touchdowns. It held seven opponents to single-digit scoring. In the team\'s two losses, to Oakland (12-7) and Baltimore (16-3), the defense allowed just one touchdown.

\"The No-Name defense took a lot of pride in the 11-man concept,\" Shula said.

Up front, Den Herder and Stanfill were sleekly styled ends in the 250-pound range who could rush the passer and close down passing lanes because each stood 6-foot-5. \"[Den Herder] is the finest defensive end I\'ve ever had play for me,\" Shula once said. In the middle, Fernandez and Heinz were a pair of overachieving tackles who were sturdy against the run.

The linebacking crew had two things in common: All weighed in at about 220 pounds, and all were multi-faceted performers who weren\'t particularly excellent in one area. However, they weren\'t weak in any, either.

The hub of the defense was the 5-11 Buoniconti, a middle linebacker blessed with desire and intelligence, which were more than enough to offset his physical shortcomings. \"When Butkus hits you, you fall the way he wants,\" Buoniconti once said. \"When I hit you, you fall the way you want. But either way, you fall.\"

Swift and Kolen were athletic outside linebackers, and the other main cog was Matheson, a substitute whose jersey number 53 became the moniker for one of Miami\'s specialty calls. The \"53 Defense\" confused opposing quarterbacks because when Matheson entered, you didn\'t know what his role was going to be. He could drop into zone pass coverage, or he could run a stunt with a lineman and rush the passer. It was the forerunner of what became the 3-4 defense.

In the secondary, Foley and Johnson were solid man-to-man cover corners who were able to take some chances because the finest safety duo in the NFL was behind them in Scott and Anderson, who still rank 1-2 in the Dolphin record book for interceptions with 35 and 34, respectively.

\"We put three linemen in, but we really rushed four,\" said Anderson. \"They never knew which of the four linebackers was coming. In essence it multiplied the offensive line\'s responsibilities by four and that was the whole idea. Our scheme was more important than the individual players.\"

The unit and that scheme was the brainchild of Arnsparger whose philosophy was pretty simple. \"You control the blocker and you find the football. And tackle. That\'s defensive football.\"

\"Arnsparger was brilliant -- the consummate chess player,\" Anderson said. \"He put us in the right position all the time, never a doubt.\"

lumm0x · 09-20-2003, 10:11 PM

In 1972 the Dolphins sent 5 defensive starters to the to the Sporting News All NFL team. So for the best 11 defenders to put on the field in one season, 5 of them were from this team. Tell\'s me that they have 5 elite players on the defense if the combination of all of the other teams couldn\'t come up with a better individual for the list.

I will never disagree they weren\'t more of a unit than individuals.

By the way Billy, how old is that link. Buoniconti\'s in the hall of fame.

BillyCarpenter1 · 09-20-2003, 10:17 PM

I don\'t know how old the article is. I just posted it because it told how the defense got it\'s name and I thought it showed that no one was really dominite on their defense.

WhoDat · 09-20-2003, 11:22 PM

1. Individual success.

2.. Team success.

3. length of career.

Individual success (stats) weigh heavily on how one\'s career is looked at.

Team success -- (superbowls) Turns good or great players into legends.

Length of career -- Allows players to break all time records, such as the running or passing records, and turns them into legands.

I would tend to agree with this, but then let me ask you, how are the above categories weighted? Think Dan Marino. No SBs, nothing spectacular in team success either, but incredible stats. Or what about Warner. He had all of those things - maybe more so over a three year period than any QB ever, but it was only three years. How would he rank?

SuperbowlSaints · 09-21-2003, 09:39 PM

to answer my own question, the defense stinks just as much as it did last year at the end of the season, and we need a bunch of new coaches. hey, a new owner would be even better, one that would help us win, not put more and more money into his own pckets. that is what we really need.

09-20-2003, 03:33 PM	#21
nocloning 100th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 302	Is Rick Venturi Doing A Better Job With The Defense? To answer lumm0x: It\'s more problematic to define a great defensive player than a great offensive player. RBs can easily be evaluated by yards and TDs. How about a great corner who simply takes the best receiver of a team out of the game week-in and week-out because QBs are afraid to throw anywhere he might get his hands on the ball? How about a great defensive lineman who gets double-teamed on every play and still manages to collapse the pocket on some plays? They may end with 0 tackles and they still were a force. So team success, Pro Bowl spots and obviously a spot in Canton are ways to tell he was an elite player.
nocloning 100th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 302	\"What is Wal-Mart? Is it like they sell wall stuff?\"

09-20-2003, 06:07 PM	#22
lumm0x Resident antediluvian Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,026	Is Rick Venturi Doing A Better Job With The Defense? If it\'s stats, pro bowls, team success, super bowls, length of career, hall of fame....all together.... then the 72 Dolpins defense must have had about 6 \"elite\" players on it. That team has the individual stats, team stats, super bowls, durable starters, and more hall of famers than any other team in football.They were no name by no means.

09-20-2003, 09:17 PM	#23
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Is Rick Venturi Doing A Better Job With The Defense? http://cbs.sportsline.com/u/ce/featu...217_59,00.html No-Names leave their mark By Anthony Holden Special to SportsLine.com Just days before his Dallas Cowboys were to meet the Miami Dolphins in Super Bowl VI at Tulane Stadium in New Orleans, coach Tom Landry was asked to assess the Miami defense that had allowed just 174 points during the 1971 regular season. Safety Jake Scott was a force in the \"I can\'t recall their names,\" Landry said, \"but they are a matter of great concern to us.\" Thus was born the \"No-Name Defense.\" While they weren\'t too much of a concern to the Cowboys on Super Sunday as Dallas rolled to a 24-3 victory, Miami\'s unsung defense would go on to key pro football\'s only perfect season (17-0) and help deliver back-to-back Super Bowl championships in 1972 and \'73. Five offensive players from Miami\'s 1972 perfect team have made it to the Pro Football Hall of Fame (fullback Larry Csonka, guard Larry Little, quarterback Bob Griese, wide receiver Paul Warfield and center Jim Langer), but not one member of the defense has been enshrined. \"Bothersome,\" is how coach Don Shula reacts to that fact. \"They took a lot of pride in being unselfish, but we had some great performances. Nick Buoniconti, Dick Anderson and Manny Fernandez are all deserving.\" Bill Arnsparger, the defensive coordinator and architect of that group, thinks the unit should be enshrined collectively. \"The No-Names as a group should be inducted into the Hall of Fame,\" Arnsparger said. \"It would be unique, but it would be the only appropriate way to credit them. You can\'t single out one player. Nobody knew who they were, and they all played selflessly.\" This collective group of No-Names were Fernandez, Bob Heinz, Vern Den Herder and Bill Stanfill, linebackers Nick Buoniconti, Bob Matheson, Mike Kolen and Doug Swift, cornerbacks Tim Foley and Curtis Johnson, and safeties Jake Scott and Dick Anderson. Individually, maybe they weren\'t the greatest players at their positions, but collectively, they were as good as any defense in the history of the game. N O - N A M E S LDE -- Vern Den Herder LDT -- Manny Fernandez RDT -- Bob Heinz RDE -- Bill Stanfill LLB -- Doug Swift MLB -- Nick Buoniconti RLB -- Mike Kolen LCB -- Tim Foley RCB -- Curtis Johnson SS -- Jake Scott FS -- Dick Anderson \"They wouldn\'t beat you up physically,\" said Langer, who had to practice against this unit every day. \"But they got the job done.\" Pittsburgh Steelers quarterback Terry Bradshaw found this out in the 1972 AFC Championship Game. \"The Dolphins didn\'t scare us,\" said Bradshaw, who was one week removed from having thrown the pass that resulted in the Immaculate Reception by Franco Harris, which beat Oakland in the divisional playoffs. \"They didn\'t have those mean, intimidating people. That defense of theirs, basically nice guys. They didn\'t have a Mean Joe Greene or a Mad Dog White like we had.\" Those nice guys held the Steelers to just 13 first downs and 250 yards as the Dolphins won their second straight AFC title with a 21-17 win. In 1972, the No-Name defense gave up just 18 touchdowns in 14 regular-season games, and five of those came in the fourth quarter of one-sided routs. The Dolphins intercepted 26 passes, recorded 33 sacks, and allowed NFL lows in yards (3,297) and points (171). Although Miami lost two games the following season, Arnsparger\'s unit played even better. It allowed a league-low 150 points and 15 touchdowns. It held seven opponents to single-digit scoring. In the team\'s two losses, to Oakland (12-7) and Baltimore (16-3), the defense allowed just one touchdown. \"The No-Name defense took a lot of pride in the 11-man concept,\" Shula said. Up front, Den Herder and Stanfill were sleekly styled ends in the 250-pound range who could rush the passer and close down passing lanes because each stood 6-foot-5. \"[Den Herder] is the finest defensive end I\'ve ever had play for me,\" Shula once said. In the middle, Fernandez and Heinz were a pair of overachieving tackles who were sturdy against the run. The linebacking crew had two things in common: All weighed in at about 220 pounds, and all were multi-faceted performers who weren\'t particularly excellent in one area. However, they weren\'t weak in any, either. The hub of the defense was the 5-11 Buoniconti, a middle linebacker blessed with desire and intelligence, which were more than enough to offset his physical shortcomings. \"When Butkus hits you, you fall the way he wants,\" Buoniconti once said. \"When I hit you, you fall the way you want. But either way, you fall.\" Swift and Kolen were athletic outside linebackers, and the other main cog was Matheson, a substitute whose jersey number 53 became the moniker for one of Miami\'s specialty calls. The \"53 Defense\" confused opposing quarterbacks because when Matheson entered, you didn\'t know what his role was going to be. He could drop into zone pass coverage, or he could run a stunt with a lineman and rush the passer. It was the forerunner of what became the 3-4 defense. In the secondary, Foley and Johnson were solid man-to-man cover corners who were able to take some chances because the finest safety duo in the NFL was behind them in Scott and Anderson, who still rank 1-2 in the Dolphin record book for interceptions with 35 and 34, respectively. \"We put three linemen in, but we really rushed four,\" said Anderson. \"They never knew which of the four linebackers was coming. In essence it multiplied the offensive line\'s responsibilities by four and that was the whole idea. Our scheme was more important than the individual players.\" The unit and that scheme was the brainchild of Arnsparger whose philosophy was pretty simple. \"You control the blocker and you find the football. And tackle. That\'s defensive football.\" \"Arnsparger was brilliant -- the consummate chess player,\" Anderson said. \"He put us in the right position all the time, never a doubt.\"
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

09-20-2003, 10:11 PM	#24
lumm0x Resident antediluvian Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,026	Is Rick Venturi Doing A Better Job With The Defense? In 1972 the Dolphins sent 5 defensive starters to the to the Sporting News All NFL team. So for the best 11 defenders to put on the field in one season, 5 of them were from this team. Tell\'s me that they have 5 elite players on the defense if the combination of all of the other teams couldn\'t come up with a better individual for the list. I will never disagree they weren\'t more of a unit than individuals. By the way Billy, how old is that link. Buoniconti\'s in the hall of fame.

09-20-2003, 10:17 PM	#25
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Is Rick Venturi Doing A Better Job With The Defense? I don\'t know how old the article is. I just posted it because it told how the defense got it\'s name and I thought it showed that no one was really dominite on their defense.
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

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09-20-2003, 11:22 PM	#26
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Is Rick Venturi Doing A Better Job With The Defense? 1. Individual success. 2.. Team success. 3. length of career. Individual success (stats) weigh heavily on how one\'s career is looked at. Team success -- (superbowls) Turns good or great players into legends. Length of career -- Allows players to break all time records, such as the running or passing records, and turns them into legands. I would tend to agree with this, but then let me ask you, how are the above categories weighted? Think Dan Marino. No SBs, nothing spectacular in team success either, but incredible stats. Or what about Warner. He had all of those things - maybe more so over a three year period than any QB ever, but it was only three years. How would he rank?
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631

09-21-2003, 09:39 PM	#27
SuperbowlSaints Registered Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 90	Is Rick Venturi Doing A Better Job With The Defense? to answer my own question, the defense stinks just as much as it did last year at the end of the season, and we need a bunch of new coaches. hey, a new owner would be even better, one that would help us win, not put more and more money into his own pckets. that is what we really need.
SuperbowlSaints Registered Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 90