Keyou is Hungry

Boogro · 04-16-2004, 09:15 PM

First of all, I\'d like to say that I have read articles at NOLA.com, saints report, neworleansprofootball, this site, Saints revolution and if there are any more sites you know of, I\'d be glad to look at them. I have read all what the media, former players, and anyone else has said about his organization. I do see improvemnet from this ball club. It may be slower than others, but we are improving. Brooks has been improving and I can\'t expect him to have the fumbles every year like he did last year. His interceptions were low. We have one of the best running backs in the game today and he has plenty years ahead of him. Expect a big turn around from our recievers. We have one of the best interior lines in the NFL (in my opinion) and two solid tackles. Boo Williams is keeping the weight on and can have an exceptional year. We have a young defensive line with a lot of talent. It\'s just too bad it takes a D-lineman longer to develop than almost any other position. Our D-line will be the key of our success next year. I am with Haslett when says its going to take time. I really do believe that. This is the first year we didn\'t have a big over-haul so its going to be interesting how these guys play together and trust one another. The only problem I have with Haslett at times is when he gets challenge-happy. One area that no one is talking about right now that was a big disappointment last year was special teams. Michael Lewis was terrible, as was Carney. Berger was the only bright spot on special teams and he is very underrated in my mind. So, we do have a lot of things going good for us.

JimBone · 04-16-2004, 09:45 PM

yeah...what he said.

Chuck · 04-16-2004, 11:16 PM

Main you guys are still harping on this thread, it just won\'t go away.

saintfan · 04-17-2004, 11:10 AM

Your comments w/o facts or quotes are the way you feel yet my comments regarding Mickey Mouse org require quotes and facts to describe how I I feel.

Ummm, gee Gator, my comments are often opinions -- so are yours -- but there\'s a difference in this case. You attempt to post your opinion as some sort of undeniable truth (See the \"quite a bit\" statement you made) and therein, sir, is the difference.

You say I\'m a Know it all because I state my Opinions here. What are you when you state your opinions here?

You indicated, of your own accord, that I think you\'re a \"know it all\". Let us not forget that you said it, not I. In fact, I think quite the opposite.

Whether you think so or not, I try to be reasonable. My opinions are just that...opinions...and I post them as such. When you insinuate something and then get pissy when someone calls you on whether it\'s truthful or not and continue to argue the point without any evidence and refuse to admit it\'s merely your opinion rather than factual indicates you have an agenda. Honestly now...do you really disagree with me on that, or are you simply arguing for the sake of the argument?

You want quotes to support my opinion that the Saints are a Mickey Mouse Org. But you won\'t provide any quotes that I\'m wrong and they are not a Mickey Mouse org.

OK, OK -- ONE MORE TIME for those of you way up yonder in da cheap seats. YOU made the statement. The burden of proof rests on YOUR shoulders. Honestly, there have been PLENTY of posts in this thread that indicate the Saints aren\'t a \"Mickey Mouse\" organization. See Gator, if I say something like, \"the saints aren\'t a Mickey Mouse organization, and this is being said quite a bit by the fans, players, and the media\", then I might be expected to prove this with actual quotes from fans, players, and the media. Since YOU made a similar statement to the contrary YOU get to prove you\'re not full of big red beans. Why is that so difficult for you to get wrapped around? Isn\'t the FACT that you haven\'t posted a single solitary quote to support your statement a great big \'ol RED FLAG? Well, I think it is.

You say I have an agenda because of my comments about the Saints, yet you deny you have an agenda yourself.

Well, yes -- and no. I do think you have an agenda, based on your attacks on both Brooks and Haz...based specifically on your willingness to hold those two individuals solely responsible for the Saints record while refusing to acknowledge other factors which I believe help determine the outcome of a football game. So, yes, sir, I do think you have an agenda. I don\'t deny I have an agenda, and again I don\'t think you\'re reading everying I\'m typing. Go back a few posts and READ what I typed about my own agenda and what it is. Quote it for me here will ya? Then explain how you can type, \"yet you deny you have an agenda yourself.\"

I\'m defending my intergrity.
----Your basically calling me a liar in every post
I\'m expressing my feelings about the saints
----Your expressing your feelings about my comments

If you wanna defend your integrity, then admit the truth, which is the \"quite a bit\" statement was an assumption -- not a fact.
Yes, you are expressing your feelings about the Saints, and indeed I am expressing my feelings about your comments about the Saints. We agree. My feelings about your recent comments is that they are largely based on your opinion -- not facts. This is what got the whole thing started is it not? Still waitin\' on that proof Gator. Whodat even jumped in attempting to help you prove your statements...still waiting...

You say you won\'t find any proof b/c you won\'t prove my point for me. I think you won\'t look because you are again attacking me and not the issue. You want the answer to your question, then you go it. The Burden is on you my friend. This is a forum for comments and opinions. If you disagree thats fine. But when you call someone a liar because they misrepresent, then you should prove my comments to be wrong. If your so sure there is no proof of what I say, then show me and I\'ll be happy to retract my comments. But you won\'t b/c you know the media, certain players, and many fans feel the same way I do. This is just your expressing your frustration b/c your in the minority on yet another issue. Its sad man. Other people feel the way I do and it just pisses you off.

The proof that supports my opinion in this particular debate Gatorman is your lack of evidence. Perhaps you never tried to find the quotes you assumed, but it appears as though Whodat did. In fact, so did I, and neither of us came up with anything to prove your case. There\'s the PROOF for my side of the debate. You made the statement and up to now there has been no evidence to support it. Again, I find it laughable that you never even tried...or perhaps you did...and maybe your search came up empty just like mine (and Whodat\'s) did. For the record, It appears as tho most people participating in this thread (a) like Skoal (me too) (b) don\'t like Creed (me too) and (c) don\'t agree with YOUR (and Kyle Turley\'s) assesment that the Saints are a \"Mickey Mouse\" organization. To quote Bill O\'Reilly, \"What say you, sir?\" How can I possibly show you the proof that your statement resides in the FACT that there isn\'t any evidence to support it. Whadda you want me to do Gatorman, post air?

This group of guys leading this organization should be praised for the work they have done rebuilding this franchise. That is evidenced by the fact that all of you out there think the Saints should be in the playoffs every year when that wasnt at all the case the previous 7 to 10 years before these guys took over. Everyone knew the teams we had in the last years of the Mora regime and throughout the entire Ditka regime were gonna be terrible. Now, we all expect Haslett to get us to the playoffs every year because he has brought in much better players and the Saints arent that far off from being a serious contender.

JimBone, I couldn\'t agree more.

Like I said before, people only want to talk about the negatives

Not all people Boogro. But I can think of three right off the top of my head.

I really don\'t mean to sound negative but when someone does well it is acknowleged here, and by myself...

This from a guy who was upset when the Saints beat the Falcons because they didn\'t beat \'em by enough points to make him happy. I\'ll find the post Gatorman if you really want me to.

Look Gator, you know I enjoy a good debate as well as anybody, and I\'ve had it handed to me a time or two, and I\'ve even dined on crow, but in this case that won\'t be happening. The BOTTOM LINE here is yes, we all have our opinions. This is a forum. We post our opinions and we debate \'em. The thing is that you posted some comments here that are your opinions...not facts...I\'ve called you on it and asked for proof and as of yet you haven\'t been able to provide any. Now, I\'m not the truth police, but since I happen to have a different view on what you posted I\'ve asked for proof. The evidence that supports my opinion here is the lack of evidence that supports yours.

saintz08 · 04-17-2004, 01:36 PM

For the record, It appears as tho most people participating in this thread (a) like Skoal (me too) (b) don\'t like Creed (me too) and (c) don\'t agree with YOUR (and Kyle Turley\'s) assesment that the Saints are a \"Mickey Mouse\" organization.

Someone define the term \"Mickey Mouse Organization\" .

Certainly there has been a few players in the league and over the years that have left the Saints in some way or another and have voiced their displeasure with the Saints and how the organization handled things .

Horn - vocal on how Delhomme was overlooked
Turley - On how he was fed and contractual talks
Johnson - Contractual
Roaf - displeased
Williams - contractual issues and respect issues
Martin - Contractual
Hebert - Contractual
These are a few Pro Bowlers that have expressed displeasure with the organization .

saintfan · 04-17-2004, 01:59 PM

Certainly there has been a few players in the league and over the years that have left the Saints in some way or another and have voiced their displeasure with the Saints and how the organization handled things .

And this would be different from ANY OTHER organization in the NFL exactly how? :casstet:

As far as Delhomme being overlooked...he was so overlooked he wasn\'t even drafted...and Ditka cut him once or twice. Looks like Haz is in pretty good company in that regard eh? But leave it to you to somehow get Delhomme into the discussion. Are you two married yet? :P

According you you, 08, Turley, Johnson, Martin, and Hebert were all upset regarding their contracts. Exactly how does this (a) go anywhere near defining the Saints as a \"Mickey Mouse\" organization or (b) reflect on Jim\'s ability to coach football -- seeing as how Gatorman thinks he needs to be fired.

Yes, Roaf was displeased...about what exactly none of us will never know, because Willie never would really say.

So, is it your point that there have been some disgruntled Saints players over the years? In fact that has already been established...further it has also been established that every other team in the history of the NFL has had disgruntled players -- for issues that have nothing to do with football.

You musketeers are amazing. Wrong, but amazing nonetheless.

JKool · 04-17-2004, 03:11 PM

Ok, so I just spent about half an hour reading this post to see why it is still here and why it is 4 pages. Now, I laughed a lot, and that was good, but I\'m also concerned about where this is going. It seems to me to need two things: (1) Evidence, and (2) Methodological structure.

I think some evidence has been provided. In fact, WhoDat offered some good stuff in a few earlier comments. Some of that evidence is in question (i.e. Glover\'s comment - I guess I can\'t understand why you think what he said is BAD about the NO org?), and other evidence is in the form of an argument (i.e. talent + good coaching = playoffs, no playoffs, therefore either no talent or no coaching). The evidence in the form of an argument requires reply - and actually, I\'m pretty sure we\'ve all had this debate before (except the new kids - welcome by the way). I think Saintfan\'s skepticism wrt the comments made by players is warranted (in fact, Danno provided some evidence to the contrary) - that is, players who have actually disparaged the organization are currently not sufficient to make the point that the organization has the Mickey Mouse property. However, WhoDat\'s argument (and I suppose Gator\'s too - since they seem to agree here, and I am too lazy to look back and see who said it first) has not been properly addressed here (but I do think it has been addressed before).

Boogro, please learn to use paragraphs and spacing. I like the things you say, but they are VERY hard to read.

As far as methodology, it would all be helpful if we used a simple \"burden of proof\" rule: if you advance a claim, the other guy gets to ask you to prove it, you do not then get to ask him to prove the assumptions he uses to ask the question. Thus, if you advance a claim that isn\'t obvious to everyone, they get to ask you why you think it. If you give that evidence, then you are done. If you want to make a new point, start a new thread - this way we won\'t get dragged into these posts that simply rehash everything everyone has said over the course of this web-page (and I think we\'ll avoid some of this \"agenda\" stuff - get over it, everyone has a way of coloring the \"fact\" whether intended or not, without such coloring, we probably would have no way of understanding the facts at all - without background assumptions the following sorts of sentences make no sense \"he had 10 catches in his \'97 campaign\").

Anyway, after I spent all this time reading this, I felt it was my duty to put in my two cents.

JimBone · 04-17-2004, 05:58 PM

Haslett is just like Ike in Tombstone. He\'s just unlucky.

Well maybe football isn\'t his game. I know, why don\'t we try a spelling bee?

Thats just my game.

Danno · 04-17-2004, 06:09 PM

Nice post Jkool
A few pages back I ask some simple questions, and have yet to get any answers.
I smell an agenda. OK, thats fine... it appears the object of contention is Haslet and Loomis.
I don\'t understand the contradiction though. Haslet has a talented team but can\'t coach them so he needs to go, and Loomis can\'t bring in any talent for Haslet to coach, so he must go.
Everyone\'s agenda is watering down the beer. If I wanted watered down beer I\'d buy Coors light!

I\'ll pose my questions again, since they were basically ignored earlier. Which also imply\'s that what we really have here is yet another pissin contest by some hard-headed Hoffenheimers instead of actual meaningful dialogue. Its cool though, I\'ve been in a few myself, and I\'m as hard headed as anyone. Well maybe not as much as some.

I think it should be noted that 1 player (Turley) said this team is a mickey mouse organization. Another had many bad things to say about the team, but also said he was as good a WR as Randy Moss. I think its safe to ignore this moron\'s comments.

So, if this current organization was so bad then why...

Why would a 1st class pro and high character guy like Ernie Conwell want to come here instead of stay in St Louis? The money was about the same. He was a teammate of Turley. Maybe he knew Turley was an idiot and discounted his comments about us.

Why would Wayne Gandy, a subperb person and professional come here if it were true?

Why would Terrell Smith say such nice things about the coach and organization AFTER leaving?

Why would Brian Cox, who will speak his mind in a flash, say such nice things about the Saints?

Why would Bryan Young, also a teammate of Turley, be so excited about coming here. Perhaps he also knows Turley\'s an idiot.

Why would Pease, a highly respected and sought after assistant choose to come here?

WhoDat · 04-17-2004, 06:15 PM

You, and 08, and Whodat specifically place the Saints record at the foot of AB and Haz. I can\'t recall either of you commenting about missed blocks on the line (AB runs for his life) or dropped passes (back when Billy and me were the only two on this board willing to acknowledge it) etc, etc.

You\'re damn right. Haslett is the head coach and AB is supposed to be the \"leader of this team.\" Who the hell else is to blame for their record? Missed blocks? Dropped passes? If it were one player you would fire that player. When it happens broadly across the team, that\'s the COACH\'S fault. If his players don\'t play to expectations, he is to blame. Period. If you don\'t think that\'s true then you must be watching Canadian football, b/c that\'s how things work in the NFL... IN MY OPINION.

Read every one of your posts in this thread for your proof. You don\'t like AB and you don\'t like Haz and your agenda is that you want \'em gone. That\'s fine...we all have our opinions sir, but you post speculation as fact in an attempt to further your view.

Every post of mine from now on must have the words \"in my opinion\" I guess. Otherwise, by Saintfan\'s standards we\'re trying to forward an agenda and pass opinion as fact. We make strong statements, but neither of us have said that our comments are absolute truths. Apparently it is just magically known by all the other posters on this board that Saintfan\'s comments are totally speculative and opinion, ours are ... oh wait, aren\'t you attacking us for being speculative and opinionated? Hhhmm. Now I\'m really confused. --- \" this stuff you guys type is pure speculation...in other words, yeah, you dreamed it up.\"

Double Standard #1
Your comments w/o facts or quotes are the way you feel yet my comments regarding Mickey Mouse org require quotes and facts to describe how I I feel.

Double Standard #2
You say I\'m a Know it all because I state my Opinions here. What are you when you state your opinions here?

Double Standard #3
You want quotes to support my opinion that the Saints are a Mickey Mouse Org. But you won\'t provide any quotes that I\'m wrong and they are not a Mickey Mouse org.

Double Standard #4
You say I have an agenda because of my comments about the Saints, yet you deny you have an agenda yourself.

Fantastic Gator. You cannot more clearly show the double standards that Saintfan uses every day in here.

OK, I\'ll try something else. Forget what the players have said, they are obviously all just hateful lunatics that wanted to help Gator and I further our agenda. By your own admission, this is one of the most talented Saints teams ever. Our record is .500 over the last 3 seasons. The ONLY explanation you have given for that thus far is bad luck. You think we\'re reaching?!?!?! Bad luck is your defense for Haslett. OK, you\'re right. We should put our agenda to rest. LMAO. That\'s weak as hell. I expect more than that.

04-16-2004, 09:15 PM	#81
Boogro Nose Digger Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 341	Keyou is Hungry First of all, I\'d like to say that I have read articles at NOLA.com, saints report, neworleansprofootball, this site, Saints revolution and if there are any more sites you know of, I\'d be glad to look at them. I have read all what the media, former players, and anyone else has said about his organization. I do see improvemnet from this ball club. It may be slower than others, but we are improving. Brooks has been improving and I can\'t expect him to have the fumbles every year like he did last year. His interceptions were low. We have one of the best running backs in the game today and he has plenty years ahead of him. Expect a big turn around from our recievers. We have one of the best interior lines in the NFL (in my opinion) and two solid tackles. Boo Williams is keeping the weight on and can have an exceptional year. We have a young defensive line with a lot of talent. It\'s just too bad it takes a D-lineman longer to develop than almost any other position. Our D-line will be the key of our success next year. I am with Haslett when says its going to take time. I really do believe that. This is the first year we didn\'t have a big over-haul so its going to be interesting how these guys play together and trust one another. The only problem I have with Haslett at times is when he gets challenge-happy. One area that no one is talking about right now that was a big disappointment last year was special teams. Michael Lewis was terrible, as was Carney. Berger was the only bright spot on special teams and he is very underrated in my mind. So, we do have a lot of things going good for us.

04-16-2004, 09:45 PM	#82
JimBone 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Thibodaux, La Posts: 614	Keyou is Hungry yeah...what he said.

04-16-2004, 11:16 PM	#83
Chuck 100th Post Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 140	Keyou is Hungry Main you guys are still harping on this thread, it just won\'t go away.
Chuck 100th Post Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 140

04-17-2004, 11:10 AM	#84
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Keyou is Hungry Your comments w/o facts or quotes are the way you feel yet my comments regarding Mickey Mouse org require quotes and facts to describe how I I feel. Ummm, gee Gator, my comments are often opinions -- so are yours -- but there\'s a difference in this case. You attempt to post your opinion as some sort of undeniable truth (See the \"quite a bit\" statement you made) and therein, sir, is the difference. You say I\'m a Know it all because I state my Opinions here. What are you when you state your opinions here? You indicated, of your own accord, that I think you\'re a \"know it all\". Let us not forget that you said it, not I. In fact, I think quite the opposite. Whether you think so or not, I try to be reasonable. My opinions are just that...opinions...and I post them as such. When you insinuate something and then get pissy when someone calls you on whether it\'s truthful or not and continue to argue the point without any evidence and refuse to admit it\'s merely your opinion rather than factual indicates you have an agenda. Honestly now...do you really disagree with me on that, or are you simply arguing for the sake of the argument? You want quotes to support my opinion that the Saints are a Mickey Mouse Org. But you won\'t provide any quotes that I\'m wrong and they are not a Mickey Mouse org. OK, OK -- ONE MORE TIME for those of you way up yonder in da cheap seats. YOU made the statement. The burden of proof rests on YOUR shoulders. Honestly, there have been PLENTY of posts in this thread that indicate the Saints aren\'t a \"Mickey Mouse\" organization. See Gator, if I say something like, \"the saints aren\'t a Mickey Mouse organization, and this is being said quite a bit by the fans, players, and the media\", then I might be expected to prove this with actual quotes from fans, players, and the media. Since YOU made a similar statement to the contrary YOU get to prove you\'re not full of big red beans. Why is that so difficult for you to get wrapped around? Isn\'t the FACT that you haven\'t posted a single solitary quote to support your statement a great big \'ol RED FLAG? Well, I think it is. You say I have an agenda because of my comments about the Saints, yet you deny you have an agenda yourself. Well, yes -- and no. I do think you have an agenda, based on your attacks on both Brooks and Haz...based specifically on your willingness to hold those two individuals solely responsible for the Saints record while refusing to acknowledge other factors which I believe help determine the outcome of a football game. So, yes, sir, I do think you have an agenda. I don\'t deny I have an agenda, and again I don\'t think you\'re reading everying I\'m typing. Go back a few posts and READ what I typed about my own agenda and what it is. Quote it for me here will ya? Then explain how you can type, \"yet you deny you have an agenda yourself.\" I\'m defending my intergrity. ----Your basically calling me a liar in every post I\'m expressing my feelings about the saints ----Your expressing your feelings about my comments If you wanna defend your integrity, then admit the truth, which is the \"quite a bit\" statement was an assumption -- not a fact. Yes, you are expressing your feelings about the Saints, and indeed I am expressing my feelings about your comments about the Saints. We agree. My feelings about your recent comments is that they are largely based on your opinion -- not facts. This is what got the whole thing started is it not? Still waitin\' on that proof Gator. Whodat even jumped in attempting to help you prove your statements...still waiting... You say you won\'t find any proof b/c you won\'t prove my point for me. I think you won\'t look because you are again attacking me and not the issue. You want the answer to your question, then you go it. The Burden is on you my friend. This is a forum for comments and opinions. If you disagree thats fine. But when you call someone a liar because they misrepresent, then you should prove my comments to be wrong. If your so sure there is no proof of what I say, then show me and I\'ll be happy to retract my comments. But you won\'t b/c you know the media, certain players, and many fans feel the same way I do. This is just your expressing your frustration b/c your in the minority on yet another issue. Its sad man. Other people feel the way I do and it just pisses you off. The proof that supports my opinion in this particular debate Gatorman is your lack of evidence. Perhaps you never tried to find the quotes you assumed, but it appears as though Whodat did. In fact, so did I, and neither of us came up with anything to prove your case. There\'s the PROOF for my side of the debate. You made the statement and up to now there has been no evidence to support it. Again, I find it laughable that you never even tried...or perhaps you did...and maybe your search came up empty just like mine (and Whodat\'s) did. For the record, It appears as tho most people participating in this thread (a) like Skoal (me too) (b) don\'t like Creed (me too) and (c) don\'t agree with YOUR (and Kyle Turley\'s) assesment that the Saints are a \"Mickey Mouse\" organization. To quote Bill O\'Reilly, \"What say you, sir?\" How can I possibly show you the proof that your statement resides in the FACT that there isn\'t any evidence to support it. Whadda you want me to do Gatorman, post air? This group of guys leading this organization should be praised for the work they have done rebuilding this franchise. That is evidenced by the fact that all of you out there think the Saints should be in the playoffs every year when that wasnt at all the case the previous 7 to 10 years before these guys took over. Everyone knew the teams we had in the last years of the Mora regime and throughout the entire Ditka regime were gonna be terrible. Now, we all expect Haslett to get us to the playoffs every year because he has brought in much better players and the Saints arent that far off from being a serious contender. JimBone, I couldn\'t agree more. Like I said before, people only want to talk about the negatives Not all people Boogro. But I can think of three right off the top of my head. I really don\'t mean to sound negative but when someone does well it is acknowleged here, and by myself... This from a guy who was upset when the Saints beat the Falcons because they didn\'t beat \'em by enough points to make him happy. I\'ll find the post Gatorman if you really want me to. Look Gator, you know I enjoy a good debate as well as anybody, and I\'ve had it handed to me a time or two, and I\'ve even dined on crow, but in this case that won\'t be happening. The BOTTOM LINE here is yes, we all have our opinions. This is a forum. We post our opinions and we debate \'em. The thing is that you posted some comments here that are your opinions...not facts...I\'ve called you on it and asked for proof and as of yet you haven\'t been able to provide any. Now, I\'m not the truth police, but since I happen to have a different view on what you posted I\'ve asked for proof. The evidence that supports my opinion here is the lack of evidence that supports yours.
	C'mon Man...

04-17-2004, 01:36 PM	#85
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020	Keyou is Hungry For the record, It appears as tho most people participating in this thread (a) like Skoal (me too) (b) don\'t like Creed (me too) and (c) don\'t agree with YOUR (and Kyle Turley\'s) assesment that the Saints are a \"Mickey Mouse\" organization. Someone define the term \"Mickey Mouse Organization\" . Certainly there has been a few players in the league and over the years that have left the Saints in some way or another and have voiced their displeasure with the Saints and how the organization handled things . Horn - vocal on how Delhomme was overlooked Turley - On how he was fed and contractual talks Johnson - Contractual Roaf - displeased Williams - contractual issues and respect issues Martin - Contractual Hebert - Contractual These are a few Pro Bowlers that have expressed displeasure with the organization .
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020

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04-17-2004, 01:59 PM	#86
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Keyou is Hungry Certainly there has been a few players in the league and over the years that have left the Saints in some way or another and have voiced their displeasure with the Saints and how the organization handled things . And this would be different from ANY OTHER organization in the NFL exactly how? :casstet: As far as Delhomme being overlooked...he was so overlooked he wasn\'t even drafted...and Ditka cut him once or twice. Looks like Haz is in pretty good company in that regard eh? But leave it to you to somehow get Delhomme into the discussion. Are you two married yet? :P According you you, 08, Turley, Johnson, Martin, and Hebert were all upset regarding their contracts. Exactly how does this (a) go anywhere near defining the Saints as a \"Mickey Mouse\" organization or (b) reflect on Jim\'s ability to coach football -- seeing as how Gatorman thinks he needs to be fired. Yes, Roaf was displeased...about what exactly none of us will never know, because Willie never would really say. So, is it your point that there have been some disgruntled Saints players over the years? In fact that has already been established...further it has also been established that every other team in the history of the NFL has had disgruntled players -- for issues that have nothing to do with football. You musketeers are amazing. Wrong, but amazing nonetheless.
	C'mon Man...

04-17-2004, 03:11 PM	#87
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Keyou is Hungry Ok, so I just spent about half an hour reading this post to see why it is still here and why it is 4 pages. Now, I laughed a lot, and that was good, but I\'m also concerned about where this is going. It seems to me to need two things: (1) Evidence, and (2) Methodological structure. I think some evidence has been provided. In fact, WhoDat offered some good stuff in a few earlier comments. Some of that evidence is in question (i.e. Glover\'s comment - I guess I can\'t understand why you think what he said is BAD about the NO org?), and other evidence is in the form of an argument (i.e. talent + good coaching = playoffs, no playoffs, therefore either no talent or no coaching). The evidence in the form of an argument requires reply - and actually, I\'m pretty sure we\'ve all had this debate before (except the new kids - welcome by the way). I think Saintfan\'s skepticism wrt the comments made by players is warranted (in fact, Danno provided some evidence to the contrary) - that is, players who have actually disparaged the organization are currently not sufficient to make the point that the organization has the Mickey Mouse property. However, WhoDat\'s argument (and I suppose Gator\'s too - since they seem to agree here, and I am too lazy to look back and see who said it first) has not been properly addressed here (but I do think it has been addressed before). Boogro, please learn to use paragraphs and spacing. I like the things you say, but they are VERY hard to read. As far as methodology, it would all be helpful if we used a simple \"burden of proof\" rule: if you advance a claim, the other guy gets to ask you to prove it, you do not then get to ask him to prove the assumptions he uses to ask the question. Thus, if you advance a claim that isn\'t obvious to everyone, they get to ask you why you think it. If you give that evidence, then you are done. If you want to make a new point, start a new thread - this way we won\'t get dragged into these posts that simply rehash everything everyone has said over the course of this web-page (and I think we\'ll avoid some of this \"agenda\" stuff - get over it, everyone has a way of coloring the \"fact\" whether intended or not, without such coloring, we probably would have no way of understanding the facts at all - without background assumptions the following sorts of sentences make no sense \"he had 10 catches in his \'97 campaign\"). Anyway, after I spent all this time reading this, I felt it was my duty to put in my two cents.
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

04-17-2004, 05:58 PM	#88
JimBone 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Thibodaux, La Posts: 614	Keyou is Hungry Haslett is just like Ike in Tombstone. He\'s just unlucky. Well maybe football isn\'t his game. I know, why don\'t we try a spelling bee? Thats just my game.

04-17-2004, 06:09 PM	#89
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,723	Keyou is Hungry Nice post Jkool A few pages back I ask some simple questions, and have yet to get any answers. I smell an agenda. OK, thats fine... it appears the object of contention is Haslet and Loomis. I don\'t understand the contradiction though. Haslet has a talented team but can\'t coach them so he needs to go, and Loomis can\'t bring in any talent for Haslet to coach, so he must go. Everyone\'s agenda is watering down the beer. If I wanted watered down beer I\'d buy Coors light! I\'ll pose my questions again, since they were basically ignored earlier. Which also imply\'s that what we really have here is yet another pissin contest by some hard-headed Hoffenheimers instead of actual meaningful dialogue. Its cool though, I\'ve been in a few myself, and I\'m as hard headed as anyone. Well maybe not as much as some. I think it should be noted that 1 player (Turley) said this team is a mickey mouse organization. Another had many bad things to say about the team, but also said he was as good a WR as Randy Moss. I think its safe to ignore this moron\'s comments. So, if this current organization was so bad then why... Why would a 1st class pro and high character guy like Ernie Conwell want to come here instead of stay in St Louis? The money was about the same. He was a teammate of Turley. Maybe he knew Turley was an idiot and discounted his comments about us. Why would Wayne Gandy, a subperb person and professional come here if it were true? Why would Terrell Smith say such nice things about the coach and organization AFTER leaving? Why would Brian Cox, who will speak his mind in a flash, say such nice things about the Saints? Why would Bryan Young, also a teammate of Turley, be so excited about coming here. Perhaps he also knows Turley\'s an idiot. Why would Pease, a highly respected and sought after assistant choose to come here?

04-17-2004, 06:15 PM	#90
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Keyou is Hungry You, and 08, and Whodat specifically place the Saints record at the foot of AB and Haz. I can\'t recall either of you commenting about missed blocks on the line (AB runs for his life) or dropped passes (back when Billy and me were the only two on this board willing to acknowledge it) etc, etc. You\'re damn right. Haslett is the head coach and AB is supposed to be the \"leader of this team.\" Who the hell else is to blame for their record? Missed blocks? Dropped passes? If it were one player you would fire that player. When it happens broadly across the team, that\'s the COACH\'S fault. If his players don\'t play to expectations, he is to blame. Period. If you don\'t think that\'s true then you must be watching Canadian football, b/c that\'s how things work in the NFL... IN MY OPINION. Read every one of your posts in this thread for your proof. You don\'t like AB and you don\'t like Haz and your agenda is that you want \'em gone. That\'s fine...we all have our opinions sir, but you post speculation as fact in an attempt to further your view. Every post of mine from now on must have the words \"in my opinion\" I guess. Otherwise, by Saintfan\'s standards we\'re trying to forward an agenda and pass opinion as fact. We make strong statements, but neither of us have said that our comments are absolute truths. Apparently it is just magically known by all the other posters on this board that Saintfan\'s comments are totally speculative and opinion, ours are ... oh wait, aren\'t you attacking us for being speculative and opinionated? Hhhmm. Now I\'m really confused. --- \" this stuff you guys type is pure speculation...in other words, yeah, you dreamed it up.\" Double Standard #1 Your comments w/o facts or quotes are the way you feel yet my comments regarding Mickey Mouse org require quotes and facts to describe how I I feel. Double Standard #2 You say I\'m a Know it all because I state my Opinions here. What are you when you state your opinions here? Double Standard #3 You want quotes to support my opinion that the Saints are a Mickey Mouse Org. But you won\'t provide any quotes that I\'m wrong and they are not a Mickey Mouse org. Double Standard #4 You say I have an agenda because of my comments about the Saints, yet you deny you have an agenda yourself. Fantastic Gator. You cannot more clearly show the double standards that Saintfan uses every day in here. OK, I\'ll try something else. Forget what the players have said, they are obviously all just hateful lunatics that wanted to help Gator and I further our agenda. By your own admission, this is one of the most talented Saints teams ever. Our record is .500 over the last 3 seasons. The ONLY explanation you have given for that thus far is bad luck. You think we\'re reaching?!?!?! Bad luck is your defense for Haslett. OK, you\'re right. We should put our agenda to rest. LMAO. That\'s weak as hell. I expect more than that.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"