Why Is the Defense So Bad?
 

We've all got opinions, some differ but now the light is being shined on just some of the problems...

I had read this article, lumm0x had already posted...

Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad?
 

Weak

Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad?
 

Very...

Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad?
 

Need help on DL and DB. They both share the blame in my opinion.

Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad?
 

Regardless of how many of us feel about Harper, Ellis, Jenkins, Smith, Shanle, Robinson...this is a defense in transition and whether the defensive coordinator lasts longer than a season or not, there will be changes because the return on the financial investment of the defense is, well, embarrassing...

The defense may set futility NFL records on defense in the same season that Drew Brees is on pace to break his own NFL passing record...

Since Spagnuolo is a first year coach, the argument could be made he needs more time; but with the NFL clock ticking and Drew Brees' window of opportunity on the wrong side of thirty, he may not last - though I think he needs more time and better-suited players...

It is my belief that Coach Payton gets it most right among his peers as he takes what he has and builds his system around those players...

Spagnuolo may either not have enough talent, a complete mismatch of talent, or is too rigid in his system and without his guys is unsuccessful...

While there have been moments of improvement, there was continued inconsistency and digression in the Tampa Game Sunday...

I don't have much respect for Josh Freeman's game even though some in the media feel the obligation to prop him up; but the Saints Defense made a Fantasy Star out of the guy for one day and that is a continued, disturbing trend...

How long will this defense be a highly vulnerable liability to this team?

And when will all the defensive players on the roster be allowed more of an opportunity to contribute when the starters seem obviously limited to inconsistent, overmatched play?!?

Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad?
 

Has this guy been reading our stuff on Black and Gold?!?

Forecast: Why is the Saints defense so awful? | wwltv.com New Orleans

Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad?
 

To me, your last sentence is the real question. I mentioned it before in another thread. There was a VERY noticeable difference when Hicks and Galette rotated in for Ellis and Smith. Why Hicks is not starting is mind boggling.

IMO there is a lot of dead weight on the D that just needs to go. Shanle, Jenkins, Ellis, Tom Johnson, Herring..about all I can think of off top my head.

Jenkins has to be the biggest disappointment. The one big play a year that he contributes does not out way his consistent inability to tackle or his below average cover skills. Harper covers better than he does and thats a statement I never thought could be possible.

Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad?
 

This guy hangs it on defensive talent evaluation, which is ultimately on Loomis...

Saints Nation: Saints Problems on Defense Due to Poor Talent Evaluation? | September

Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad?
 

DL. We have had sucky DBs in the past and covered it up with a good pass rush.

Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad?
 

Loomis is an accountant. He just works the contracts.

Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad?
 

ITs is very possible that our defensive talent scouts really suck, as oppose to the offensive ones. I do agree that we have signed and drafted the wrong players on defense a lot.

For some reason all the brilliance seems to be on offense and we cant miss with players. While defense is consistent at under performing in most categories.

Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad?
 

If that's the case, then who/whom are calling the shots on players that are brought in?

Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad?
 

well my understanding is we pay roll defensive talent scouts for college and NFL, but the DC decides who he wants and then cross checks with loomis on cap.

As an example
How to Rebuild the New Orleans Saints Defense | Bleacher Report
""""Next up on the defensive rebuilding checklist is adding playmakers. The Saints scouting department has to identify playmakers at all three levels; defensive line, linebacker and secondary."""

Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad?
 

Takes time to learn a new Defense

Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad?
 

I agree, I am keeping my opinion in check until after game 8, thats usually enough time. I think game 9 we see what we are suck with the rest of the way.

Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad?
 

Yes sir it does (and Thank You for the avatar); and there's an evaluation as well as to whether or not we are getting the most from the personnel that are being paid...

Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad?
 

There should be an "All of the Above" option.

Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad?
 

I am not totally buying the new defensive scheme theory, but it is a factor for sure. Spags had some complete freaks in New York, what I mean by that is the front four he had was over the top. In most cases, teams will not find four guys who can get after the QB when they are going up against a minimum of five, throw in a TE and RB to help and it can easily roll to a 7 on 4 drill.

What Spags needs to realize is he doesn't have the dominating front four he had in the past, and needs to adjust accordingly. Good coordinators always adjusts schemes for the personnel they have available. I do see some signs that Spags is adjusting somewhat, we shall see if he figures out a way to at a very least hold opposing offenses to closer to 20 points rather than closer to 30 points per game. And that 500 plus yards given up on a regular basis, geez.

I am not really suggesting at this point Spags should be fired, but he seriously needs that squad to turn things around in a big way this year. If improvement is not made I doubt he sees year 2. The Saints window of opportunity is quickly closing on the offense. Saints need to win now while they still have a lethal offense.

Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad?
 

Agreed. I believe he's a a very solid coordinator, but he's got major personnel issues, or lack thereof; regardless, this last placed defense (statistical ranking) may not tolerate or allow for another season...

Spags buys himself another season if he starts or increases playing time of younger players like Wilson, Hicks; if there's some improvement, he can point to personnel issues and maybe the onus finally gets put on the sorry scouting drafting job done in the upper rounds of the draft the past ten years...:bng:

Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad?
 

We have really low end DB's except for Greer

How Patrick Robinson was drafted in the first round confuses me to no end, we messed up with that

Corey white should not be starting

Our DB's aren't that smart, they don't seem to understand zone coverage means you should not follow your man wherever he goes, you lead him to your teammates zone

Our players constantly mix up zone coverage with man coverage, take a look at underwoods TD vs us on Sunday, casillas followed the TE like he was in man coverage and underwood came from the opposite side straight into where casillas was SUPPOSED to be, BUT he had mistakenly followed the TE

two men followed the TE led to underwood being wide open

Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad?
 

I don't think there is anything wrong with the scouting department. It's a big difference from college ball to NFL and majority of our picks had great college careers that haven't translated to great NFL beginnings. Ellis was good at USC, Jenkins was good at OSU. How does the scouting department know they will not succeed? Everybody on this board thought Glenn Dorsey was a future Hall of Famer, what has he done? No one knows how the transition from college to the NFL will affect players until after they are in the league. Can't blame that on the scouts. Anyone remember Brian Bosworth, the second coming of Dick Butkus? How did that work out. Look, we have rookies starting that were only suppose to be rotating in and out and vets trying to learn a new scheme. I know everyone is tired of hearing about new scheme but when you have been playing one way for 3 years then have to change to another way it takes time to trust it. You see a guy that runs across in front of you and your instinct wants you to follow him but the scheme says turn him loose to the next guy, it's hard to do when it's the first year you play that type of system. I do agree we need to see more Hicks and Gallette and Wilson but you also have to take in consideration their styles of play. They are speed guys and sometimes their speed can't take them out of position on running plays so that is why we only see them mostly on known passing situations. We will get better because quite frankly we can't get any worst but it will take time for our guys to trust the scheme and not react to what they see all the time.

Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad?
 

What happened to the option for LB's? If the LB's are always in inferior positions, and can't cover a tight end, then what good is a pass rush or DBs?

Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad?
 

LOL! You're right. The 2nd worst unit on the entire team isn't even an option?

QB's are destroying us with short passes and crossing routes abusing our LB's and thats not even a freaking option?

This thread fails miserably.

Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad?
 

Players who are not that great to begin with are now being forced to think; the outcome isn't optimal.

Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad?
 

I went with scheme, but I feel the need to clarify why. I don't think there is anything necessarily wrong with Spagnuolo's scheme as a concept. We know it can and has worked for him and he's built some great defensive units. But that word is the key...."built". He has not built ours, he inherited ours with the exception of a couple first year players and a couple free agents.

Scheme is the big difference, as under Williams we manufactured pressure using the blitz of guys like Vilma, Harper, CB's and just plain overloads. We also asked the coverage LB's and DB's to man up on personnel, hoping the rush forced the pass or got there before coverage broke down. Player's instincts were to stick with a man or run downhill to the QB. Now these same players are being asked to man a zone and avoid their instincts. Guys used to containing gaps or setting the edge to allow other pressure to get there are now being told to maintain gap integrity but to pull a magic array of pass rush moves to get there themselves because no help is coming to force QB's. We don't have elite talent on the DL. We have some good but not great pieces who flat out are not the answer to get there by themselves. Gregg Williams built his defense to be just that and now Spags is stuck with square pegs to fit in his round holes. In 3 years it very well may become an elite defense. For now it's a frustrating struggle to watch guys play a scheme they are unaccustomed to, cannot execute due to lack of experience or ability.

Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad?
 

Lack of talent for Spags' system...It will take a year or two ...

Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad?
 

The article makes it sound like they're going to fire Spag after one season of poor production...

Really? Really?

I just feel like the guy deserves more of a chance to attract personnel that can play the scheme he runs.

We're asking him to make chicken salad out of chicken **** and then complaining that it doesn't taste good

Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad?
 

http://www.ssqq.com/stories/images/philosophy%20why.gif

Uh, all of those options, and probably a few more ... :)

Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad?
 

I feel that this has been a very informative thread. I appreciate the members that posted links for additional information.
We must get an impact DT whether through draft, trade or free agency. Our DE's are decent(even with Smith) but they are young and improving. If we could get some pressure up the middle everything else will eventually fall into place under Spags.
It may take another year to get this defense on track after we reevaluate our team. Shanle,Smith, Ellis and Bunkley are all over paid and need to be released so we can bring in one or two impact players.

Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad?
 

Not enough talent = Bad Defense

Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad?
 

Too many making way too many assumptions based on little or n logic. The talent for this defense has been assembled for a while based on Greg Williams. Spag's has had one years worth of draft/free agency. Spags is just working with what he was given.

Getting talent does not equate to GOOD. Look at Dallas, Eagles, Jets... How many times in the last 5 years have you heard the term dream team used in relation t those teams?

I will use Denver as an example. They ended up with Tebow, did they try to make Tebow work with their system? No they changed to a system Tebow could work with. We are using Williams personnel to try and run a Spags defense... Much like we are trying to make Ingram run like Ivory...

Its all just piss-poor talent management, and some people who cant let go of the way "they do it" for a way that might work.

I am in no way saying our players would be super stars on another roster.. i am just saying they might not be this bad.

Also I have said it before and will say it again.. Brady/Brees/Rogers didnt come right off the draft line and become super stars! They were coached.... Where in the hell is our development of these players?

I'm sure we have all said and heard "our players go someone where else and do better" haven't we? Its not because of the traffic on Canal Street... Its the specialty coaching that is not developing the players.

Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad?
 

Since there are some obvious items not listed in the poll like Linebackers and COACHING I do not have a viable option to vote on.

Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad?
 

I can't vote for just one, I thinks an equal smattering on just about all the choices. But maybe a little more so on the new scheme and D line. We can be decent coming off the ends, but up the middle can be subject. The game is won at the line of scrimmage.

Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad?
 

One statement: "Worst defense since 1950 in yards given up"

Spags says stats don't matter..I beg to differ. This is embarrassing!

Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad?
 

Week 7 Film Review: Saints So-So on Defense - NYTimes.com

Andy Benoit points to the poor Saints Pass Rush and singles out Harper's struggles in space and bad angles of play...

Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad?
 

May be true but his has not been as noticable as his compadre on the other side.

Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad?
 

One thing I like about Spagnuolo is that he isn't going to stand pat. His career is on the line here. He's already failed as the HC in St. Louis and failing as the DC would be a disaster for his career aspirations. The next step would be hoping for a decent college job. The guy is going to pull out all the stops.

Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad?
 

Bamm! There you go! And more coaches should have this attitude! Coach Payton has certainly been that way...

There was an article recently on "coach killers" , players, mostly quarterbacks, that can kill coaches' careers...

Spagnulo had better forget about who was signed to what FA contract, and who was picked Round 1 and get guys who can get after it!

The FA signing of Bunkley is starting to look like a gem; he really was disruptive on that goal-line stand and I think you live with the mistakes but you match him with Hicks!

Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad?
 

Did anyone watch NFL Network preview the Saints @ Broncos game?

I know they were a bunch of @$$ Hat Clowns, but that was embarrassing about the defense...

Peyton Manning was like a DST in fantasy football already starting out at 20 pts!

Is the Saints having a bad defense really a new notion?