Offensive line. Whos the biggest liability?

SaintsBro · 09-17-2013, 07:40 AM

Originally Posted by Jack Vegas

I went back and watched this game.

TB did catch us in a run blitz once, and sacked Brees once when Grubbs pulled for some reason and left a wide open hole. That had to have been a busted play.

The line struggled a bit more after the rain delay but I think some of that may be due to the wet field. Defensive line will always have an advantage in that situation because they get to dictate first move and our guys are stepping back on bad footing.

Honestly, going back and rewatching, there was some pressure but nothing we haven't seen in the past. I think Brees struggles were more the result of the Bucs' very talented secondary and linebackers in coverage. We aren't going to play many teams with that much talent on defense this season, just Seattle and that's it.

Thank you for pointing this out...so many on this board seem to be in such a ridiculous hurry to declare Brees is finished and the O-line a bust...everything for them has to fit that narrative about the contract so that's all they see....it was not raining at the start of the game, but for most of that hour while they were in the lightning delay, and the network switched to the Lions/Cardinals on TV, people seem to forget that the field in Tampa was just sitting there getting rained on...there's no question in my mind, the "rough day at the office" for Brees and the line, started AFTER the rain delay...before it they were marching at will down the field....almost like two different games.

spkb25 · 09-17-2013, 07:46 AM

I think Evans is hurt. He missed that game in Preseason. My guess is he is playing through an injury

TheOak · 09-18-2013, 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by The Dude

I dont know who would consider de la Puente elite. Grubs was elite but is a far cry from Nicks, and Evans is hurt and god knows how bad or how long it will linger. And its not a sudden thing. They have been slowly regressing as we have let go of players. Brown, Nicks, Bushrod are all gone, only Evans remains from the origianal line that was so good. You dont just replace a player a year and expect to not have a drop off. A good line can take a 2 or 3 seasons to gel with all the same players. Take away the coach who made it all happen and thats when you start having problems. Its been coming for years. Looks like Kromer was able to keep it together and now that he is gone it is starting to show. Sorry but I dont see them improving much over the course of the season.

"Brown, Nicks, Bushrod are all gone".... ?

Brown played Sunday for the Saints, and plays this Sunday for the Saints.

Rugby Saint II · 09-18-2013, 09:09 PM

Brown is learning the ropes.......Strief is all but finished and we miss Kromer more than I thought we would.

aquaboogie · 09-18-2013, 09:30 PM

Originally Posted by TheOak

"Brown, Nicks, Bushrod are all gone".... ?

Brown played Sunday for the Saints, and plays this Sunday for the Saints.

Jammal Brown. Traded to Redskins

TheOak · 09-18-2013, 10:48 PM

No wonder it didn't click... How is Jamal Brown even relevant? He hasn't worn a Saints uniform since 2008 LOL...

SaintsBro · 09-18-2013, 11:30 PM

Well he was out there for a couple of games in 2009, then went down injured. But, we very decidedly won a Super Bowl without him, so.....not much to say there.

The problem with statements like, "Brown, Nicks, Bushrod are all gone" is that, you can't keep the band together forever. You just can't. There is no team in the league that has the same offensive line they had in 2008, I can promise you that.

Here's one thing I don't understand, Dude...if it takes 2-3 SEASONS of the same guys for them to gel (which basically, no team in the league has, everyone has changes all the time), then how can you turn around and say the Saints line won't improve as the year goes on? Are you saying it takes a whole 48 games, and on the 48th they are suddenly good? Of course there is a good chance they are going to improve, game by game.

Actually, replacing one guy a year is FAR better for continuity purposes, than replacing more than one. So if you accept the reality that change is a part of life, then the Saints are trying to do it right, with as little disruption as possible. I could be wrong but I don't think they've ever had 2 intentional line changes in one season, except maybe the Olin Kreutz Experiment, which was a fiasco and kinda proves my point. Also Atlanta's line, right now, proves the point, too -- they have had a bunch of changes this year, not just one guy. It's a mess.

I agree with you about losing Kromer but nothing you can do about that. The guy wanted to advance his career, and felt it was time. Not much the team can do to make him stay.

The Dude · 09-19-2013, 01:37 AM

Originally Posted by TheOak

"Brown, Nicks, Bushrod are all gone".... ?

Brown played Sunday for the Saints, and plays this Sunday for the Saints.

Jamal Brown was on the field for us? Wow I figured this would be big news. Did we trade Ingram to get him back or something? Sheesh. Its relevant because since then we have had 3 different players at that position in the past 4 years. Not really a position you want to be swapping players around on. Granted there wasnt the drop off you would expect, but that could be due to Kromer than the players.

The Dude · 09-19-2013, 01:44 AM

Originally Posted by SaintsBro

Well he was out there for a couple of games in 2009, then went down injured. But, we very decidedly won a Super Bowl without him, so.....not much to say there.

The problem with statements like, "Brown, Nicks, Bushrod are all gone" is that, you can't keep the band together forever. You just can't. There is no team in the league that has the same offensive line they had in 2008, I can promise you that.

Here's one thing I don't understand, Dude...if it takes 2-3 SEASONS of the same guys for them to gel (which basically, no team in the league has, everyone has changes all the time), then how can you turn around and say the Saints line won't improve as the year goes on? Are you saying it takes a whole 48 games, and on the 48th they are suddenly good? Of course there is a good chance they are going to improve, game by game.

Actually, replacing one guy a year is FAR better for continuity purposes, than replacing more than one. So if you accept the reality that change is a part of life, then the Saints are trying to do it right, with as little disruption as possible. I could be wrong but I don't think they've ever had 2 intentional line changes in one season, except maybe the Olin Kreutz Experiment, which was a fiasco and kinda proves my point. Also Atlanta's line, right now, proves the point, too -- they have had a bunch of changes this year, not just one guy. It's a mess.

I agree with you about losing Kromer but nothing you can do about that. The guy wanted to advance his career, and felt it was time. Not much the team can do to make him stay.

There have been replacements at center and guard as well. Youre right that it wouldnt be so bad if it was just one position at a time over a period of time but we have downgraded just about every position except for Evans AND lost their coach.

Jack Vegas · 09-19-2013, 02:41 AM

Going from Goodwin to De la Puente was not a downgrade. Goodwin was good, but never considered elite. De la Puente is very good to elite, depending on which expert is ranking him.

Neither was Stinchcomb to Strief a downgrade. If you don't recall how Stinchcomb played in his final season, go find some old games and see for yourself. He retired because his knees were shredded. Great guy, awesome guy, I love him to death. He spent damn near an hour talking to me for an interview in '09. But he was finished as a player.

Bushrod to Brown? Doubtful. I honestly think by the end of the year we'll be seeing this as an upgrade. Bushrod was a good run blocker but average overall and really benefitted from Brees' pocket awareness. Read up on the Bears message boards, they're not real thrilled with him so far. Search Results for Query: bushrod | DaBears - Chicago Bears Message Board and Fan Site[node]=9

Nicks to Grubbs? Sort of a downgrade, except Nicks has been an injury disaster since leaving and Grubbs has always been well-known as an elite player at his position.

Jammal Brown was so washed up and injury-prone the Redskins, a team with a bad offensive line desperate for help anywhere, traded for him only to discover he couldn't play left tackle anymore. They moved him to the right side for a couple of seasons, then made him take a pay cut, then voided the last three years of his contract.

No offense, I'm just not seeing the issues. If anything I think it's amazing how the Saints have been able to maintain the overall talent level on the o-line overall. (Depth is another issue, who the hell is Tim Lelito and why is he backing up all 3 interior line spots? LOL)

09-17-2013, 07:40 AM	#21
SaintsBro Site Donor Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: in line with my ridiculous CLEAR PLASTIC BAG Posts: 3,650 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Offensive line. Whos the biggest liability? Originally Posted by Jack Vegas I went back and watched this game. TB did catch us in a run blitz once, and sacked Brees once when Grubbs pulled for some reason and left a wide open hole. That had to have been a busted play. The line struggled a bit more after the rain delay but I think some of that may be due to the wet field. Defensive line will always have an advantage in that situation because they get to dictate first move and our guys are stepping back on bad footing. Honestly, going back and rewatching, there was some pressure but nothing we haven't seen in the past. I think Brees struggles were more the result of the Bucs' very talented secondary and linebackers in coverage. We aren't going to play many teams with that much talent on defense this season, just Seattle and that's it. Thank you for pointing this out...so many on this board seem to be in such a ridiculous hurry to declare Brees is finished and the O-line a bust...everything for them has to fit that narrative about the contract so that's all they see....it was not raining at the start of the game, but for most of that hour while they were in the lightning delay, and the network switched to the Lions/Cardinals on TV, people seem to forget that the field in Tampa was just sitting there getting rained on...there's no question in my mind, the "rough day at the office" for Brees and the line, started AFTER the rain delay...before it they were marching at will down the field....almost like two different games.

09-17-2013, 07:46 AM	#22
spkb25 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 13,101	Re: Offensive line. Whos the biggest liability? I think Evans is hurt. He missed that game in Preseason. My guess is he is playing through an injury

09-18-2013, 08:37 PM	#23
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,026	Re: Offensive line. Whos the biggest liability? Originally Posted by The Dude I dont know who would consider de la Puente elite. Grubs was elite but is a far cry from Nicks, and Evans is hurt and god knows how bad or how long it will linger. And its not a sudden thing. They have been slowly regressing as we have let go of players. Brown, Nicks, Bushrod are all gone, only Evans remains from the origianal line that was so good. You dont just replace a player a year and expect to not have a drop off. A good line can take a 2 or 3 seasons to gel with all the same players. Take away the coach who made it all happen and thats when you start having problems. Its been coming for years. Looks like Kromer was able to keep it together and now that he is gone it is starting to show. Sorry but I dont see them improving much over the course of the season. "Brown, Nicks, Bushrod are all gone".... ? Brown played Sunday for the Saints, and plays this Sunday for the Saints.

09-18-2013, 09:09 PM	#24
Rugby Saint II Bounty Money $$$ Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 5800 Airline Dr. Metairie, LA. Posts: 24,073	Re: Offensive line. Whos the biggest liability? Brown is learning the ropes.......Strief is all but finished and we miss Kromer more than I thought we would.

09-18-2013, 09:30 PM	#25
aquaboogie 100th Post Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 196	Re: Offensive line. Whos the biggest liability? Originally Posted by TheOak "Brown, Nicks, Bushrod are all gone".... ? Brown played Sunday for the Saints, and plays this Sunday for the Saints. Jammal Brown. Traded to Redskins TheOak likes this.
aquaboogie 100th Post Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 196

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09-18-2013, 10:48 PM	#26
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,026	Re: Offensive line. Whos the biggest liability? No wonder it didn't click... How is Jamal Brown even relevant? He hasn't worn a Saints uniform since 2008 LOL...

09-18-2013, 11:30 PM	#27
SaintsBro Site Donor Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: in line with my ridiculous CLEAR PLASTIC BAG Posts: 3,650 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Offensive line. Whos the biggest liability? Well he was out there for a couple of games in 2009, then went down injured. But, we very decidedly won a Super Bowl without him, so.....not much to say there. The problem with statements like, "Brown, Nicks, Bushrod are all gone" is that, you can't keep the band together forever. You just can't. There is no team in the league that has the same offensive line they had in 2008, I can promise you that. Here's one thing I don't understand, Dude...if it takes 2-3 SEASONS of the same guys for them to gel (which basically, no team in the league has, everyone has changes all the time), then how can you turn around and say the Saints line won't improve as the year goes on? Are you saying it takes a whole 48 games, and on the 48th they are suddenly good? Of course there is a good chance they are going to improve, game by game. Actually, replacing one guy a year is FAR better for continuity purposes, than replacing more than one. So if you accept the reality that change is a part of life, then the Saints are trying to do it right, with as little disruption as possible. I could be wrong but I don't think they've ever had 2 intentional line changes in one season, except maybe the Olin Kreutz Experiment, which was a fiasco and kinda proves my point. Also Atlanta's line, right now, proves the point, too -- they have had a bunch of changes this year, not just one guy. It's a mess. I agree with you about losing Kromer but nothing you can do about that. The guy wanted to advance his career, and felt it was time. Not much the team can do to make him stay.
	Last edited by SaintsBro; 09-18-2013 at 11:32 PM..

09-19-2013, 01:37 AM	#28
The Dude 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 9,050	Re: Offensive line. Whos the biggest liability? Originally Posted by TheOak "Brown, Nicks, Bushrod are all gone".... ? Brown played Sunday for the Saints, and plays this Sunday for the Saints. Jamal Brown was on the field for us? Wow I figured this would be big news. Did we trade Ingram to get him back or something? Sheesh. Its relevant because since then we have had 3 different players at that position in the past 4 years. Not really a position you want to be swapping players around on. Granted there wasnt the drop off you would expect, but that could be due to Kromer than the players.
The Dude 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 9,050	Last edited by The Dude; 09-19-2013 at 01:41 AM..

09-19-2013, 01:44 AM	#29
The Dude 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 9,050	Re: Offensive line. Whos the biggest liability? Originally Posted by SaintsBro Well he was out there for a couple of games in 2009, then went down injured. But, we very decidedly won a Super Bowl without him, so.....not much to say there. The problem with statements like, "Brown, Nicks, Bushrod are all gone" is that, you can't keep the band together forever. You just can't. There is no team in the league that has the same offensive line they had in 2008, I can promise you that. Here's one thing I don't understand, Dude...if it takes 2-3 SEASONS of the same guys for them to gel (which basically, no team in the league has, everyone has changes all the time), then how can you turn around and say the Saints line won't improve as the year goes on? Are you saying it takes a whole 48 games, and on the 48th they are suddenly good? Of course there is a good chance they are going to improve, game by game. Actually, replacing one guy a year is FAR better for continuity purposes, than replacing more than one. So if you accept the reality that change is a part of life, then the Saints are trying to do it right, with as little disruption as possible. I could be wrong but I don't think they've ever had 2 intentional line changes in one season, except maybe the Olin Kreutz Experiment, which was a fiasco and kinda proves my point. Also Atlanta's line, right now, proves the point, too -- they have had a bunch of changes this year, not just one guy. It's a mess. I agree with you about losing Kromer but nothing you can do about that. The guy wanted to advance his career, and felt it was time. Not much the team can do to make him stay. There have been replacements at center and guard as well. Youre right that it wouldnt be so bad if it was just one position at a time over a period of time but we have downgraded just about every position except for Evans AND lost their coach.
The Dude 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 9,050	Last edited by The Dude; 09-19-2013 at 01:51 AM..

09-19-2013, 02:41 AM	#30
Jack Vegas 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,254	Re: Offensive line. Whos the biggest liability? Going from Goodwin to De la Puente was not a downgrade. Goodwin was good, but never considered elite. De la Puente is very good to elite, depending on which expert is ranking him. Neither was Stinchcomb to Strief a downgrade. If you don't recall how Stinchcomb played in his final season, go find some old games and see for yourself. He retired because his knees were shredded. Great guy, awesome guy, I love him to death. He spent damn near an hour talking to me for an interview in '09. But he was finished as a player. Bushrod to Brown? Doubtful. I honestly think by the end of the year we'll be seeing this as an upgrade. Bushrod was a good run blocker but average overall and really benefitted from Brees' pocket awareness. Read up on the Bears message boards, they're not real thrilled with him so far. Search Results for Query: bushrod \| DaBears - Chicago Bears Message Board and Fan Site[node]=9 Nicks to Grubbs? Sort of a downgrade, except Nicks has been an injury disaster since leaving and Grubbs has always been well-known as an elite player at his position. Jammal Brown was so washed up and injury-prone the Redskins, a team with a bad offensive line desperate for help anywhere, traded for him only to discover he couldn't play left tackle anymore. They moved him to the right side for a couple of seasons, then made him take a pay cut, then voided the last three years of his contract. No offense, I'm just not seeing the issues. If anything I think it's amazing how the Saints have been able to maintain the overall talent level on the o-line overall. (Depth is another issue, who the hell is Tim Lelito and why is he backing up all 3 interior line spots? LOL)
Jack Vegas 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,254

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