My Argument with the B & G World

GumboBC · 10-14-2004, 08:22 AM

Oh what a difference a year makes. And not just for the Saints.

Have you looked around the league lately? Remember all the guys last year talking 'bout leadership? Tellin' us that what was wrong with the Saints. Lack of leadership from Aaron Brooks. That's the problem!! Ya'll do remember, right?

Hopefully some have learned that's not the problem and has never been the problem.

Jake Delhomme is the greatest leader since General McAuthor but the Panthers are still 1-3. Oooooppps!!

Brett Farve is a Hall of Fame leader but the Packers are still 1-4. Ooooppps!!

Then there's McNabb and Culpepper. Superior athletes with not much leadership ability. What's their record?

Some of us here have preached for years that the main problem with the Saints has been the defense. And that's still the problem. But I'm sure some still want to blame Brooks. But how many are blaming Delhomme for the Panthers' record? That's about what I thought.

I could go on but I've said enough to prove my point. Some will get it and some want. Which is fine. You can never convince everyone here.

This team has many problems. Most with I believe come from coaching. But we need help on the offensive and defensive lines. We get pushed around too much and that leads to breakdowns and inconsistency.

This team still has a chance. They have enough talent to make the playoffs. I'll hold out hope till there's no chance.

Hey, that's what Saints fans do, right?

saintfan · 10-14-2004, 08:38 AM

...and things return to \"normal\"...LOL

I\'m sure many can recall the \'ol \"injuries are no excuse\" argument put forth by some of the leading moonshiners.

I find it interesting that, when the great Jake Delhomme and his mystic \"it\" quality are mentioned in the same breath as the Panther\'s 1-3 record the very FIRST thing these people mention is all the injuries that Panthers are enduring. There\'s a word for that, but I won\'t use it here.

GumboBC · 10-14-2004, 08:45 AM

...and things return to \"normal\"...LOL

I\'m sure many can recall the \'ol \"injuries are no excuse\" argument put forth by some of the leading moonshiners.

I find it interesting that, when the great Jake Delhomme and his mystic \"it\" quality are mentioned in the same breath as the Panther\'s 1-3 record the very FIRST thing these people mention is all the injuries that Panthers are enduring. There\'s a word for that, but I won\'t use it here.

Are they REALLY trying to use the injury excuse? If so, then they have discredited themselves. Not like they don\'t always do that.

They are AGENDA driven and it gets them in trouble. They also have very short memories. But I DO NOT have a short memory.

Their problem it that they have painted themselves in a corner and they cant\' get out and save fac e.

Keep \'em in line.

WhoDat · 10-14-2004, 08:57 AM

The thing that upsets me the most is the way that the AB debate is misconstrued...

No doubt, AB is criticized often, sometimes overly. I judge him as compared to the other QBs in the league - where he generally ranks in the middle of the pack to slightly above average. He often puts up good numbers in the yards and TDs categories, but hurts himself with low efficiency measures, fumbles, etc. Overall, I think AB is a good QB. However, AARON BROOKS claimed he was a top five QB in the league. Many people on this board have defended him for that. The numbers show that he is not, and never has been. If AB is held to a higher standard, I feel that it is deserving. Afterall, nobody set that standard for AB but AB.

Further, people here take criticism of AB as an allegation that he is THE problem with the team. If you go back all the way to the 2002 season you will see that I, for one, never said he was THE problem. In fact, even back then I made the same argument. Suggesting that he is A problem, or that HE COULD perform better is not a suggestion that he is everything that is wrong with this team.

In fact, I have held for sometime that the DEFENSE and COACHING staff are the two PRIMARY concerns with this team. I won\'t speak for others on this board, but very few have chosen to blame AB for all of the Saints woes.

Regardless of what you want to say about other QBs, AB still has many of the same faults that some of us have cited in the past. He still lacks intangibles, IMO. He is not a good leader, he is not a \"student of the game\", he still doesn\'t seem to read defenses very well. Likewise, he presents a problem in terms of scheme for a coordinator. He has a rocket arm, but he\'s not good at spreading the field b/c he can\'t throw deep very well, nor does he have the touch that many deeper out routes require. This would seem to favor a west coast style attack. However, AB often holds the ball too long and can\'t make the hot read. Those are two things that you simply must have to be successful in the quick hit short routes that characterize the West Coast.

I think that is at least PART of the reason for this offense\'s schizophrenia. Play calling is also a problem. Lack of discipline and mental mistakes are probably the biggest.

I agree with Billy in that leadership cannot do it on its own. I\'m not sure that argument was ever made. Whether I articulated it well or not in the past, the thing I think the Saints offense needed most for the last year and a half or so is consistent efficient leadership from the QB position. I don\'t think we got it and that has hurt.

Likewise, this team has needed discipline, consistency, and leadership. It is not AB\'s responsibility to provide that. It is Haslett\'s. I believe I have criticized Haslett heavily for failing to provide that.

As for the athlete QB versus the efficient smart don\'t screw up QB - well, this year\'s results only prove my point further. I have compared the Penningtons, Hasslebacks, and Bradys to the Vicks, Culpeppers, and McNabbs in the past b/c generally there was a clear difference. In recent years, the former group has been highly efficient whereas the later, while undoubtedly more physically gifted, have made plays on their own, but have generally been less efficient. This argument was always, give me a game manager who is smart and efficient over an athlete who is neither of those things. Further, the argument was that the athletes teams have succeeded, but can\'t get over the hump. Philly and Minnesota are two good examples.

This year, Billy cites those teams as examples of why the athletes are better, or at least why my argument has no merit. But an examination of the numbers shows that its clear why these guys and their teams are succeeding.

Here are the top Qbs in terms of efficiency this year:
Culpepper - 126 (3-1)
Manning - 114.1 (4-1)
McNabb - 110.5 (4-0)
Pennington - 100.1 (4-0)
Brees - 100 (3-2)
Carr - 98.1 (2-3)
Brady - 96 (4-0)
Harrington - 92.3 (3-1)
Rattay - 91.9 (1-4)
Hassleback - 91.8 (3-1)
Warner - 91.8 (4-1)

As you can see, with the exception of Rattay, and maybe Carr (although I think Houston has played much more competitively this year than anyone expected), there seems to be a correlation between an efficient QB and a winning record. Of course I\'ll take a physically gifted QB who can make plays on his own who is ALSO very efficient. But that wasn\'t the argument in the past. The argument was efficiency versus athleticism, and I\'ll take efficiency any day.

BlackandBlue · 10-14-2004, 12:56 PM

Anyone notice how many QB\'s have ratings over 100 this year, compared to last year? There was, what, 1 player that ended the season last year with a QB rating over 100? Think the pass intereference inforcement has anything to do with that?

subguy · 10-14-2004, 01:58 PM

Along with the new forum request might I request a \"yawn\" smiley........because I am soooo bored with the opinion based debate. I think Brooks sucks.......what does it really matter? It does nothing more than chum the waters. This is similar to the presidential debates, has it really changed your mind in how you will vote? Numbers can show anything we want. We are losing. The won-loss record cannot be twisted it tells the tale. And of course, now we have a blast from the past to attempt to rub our noses in something that appeared worthy to him to bring forth. The thread topic was \"my argument with B&G world\". Maybe this should have been more aptly named\"the I fart in your general direction\"thread. We all remember the leadership debates, and those issues still exist, but that is one piece off the puzzle. Don\'t discount ALL of the issues. The team has problems and Brooks is still not a leader. Now what have we gained?

[Edited on 14/10/2004 by subguy]

JOESAM2002 · 10-14-2004, 02:18 PM

Sub, I tend to agree with you. I get bored with the same ole same ole all the time too. I try to find NEW and different things to talk about but for some odd reason the conversation goes back to the same old he sux, they suc we suc, no we don\'t no they don\'t no he doesn\'t, why oh why does this keep turning to a personel quarrel? If I had one wish (other than new coaching for the Saints) I\'d have to wish that all this bickering just went away.

WhoDat · 10-14-2004, 10:40 PM

Granted.

Although I would LOVE to hear Billy\'s or SF\'s reply to this. Come on defenders of AB, expose the agenda. LMAO.

[Edited on 15/10/2004 by WhoDat]

saintfan · 10-15-2004, 09:37 AM

Looks like BlackandBlue already did! LMAO

:soleil:

TheJudge · 10-15-2004, 03:50 PM

i DO think McNab is a leader...

Injurues to your top 2 (now 3) offensive players have hurt the panthers...

All i want if for AB to care about what he is doing...please do not laugh about an INT while you walk off the field.... i just want himt o go after the ball if it is fumbled.... try like he used to before he got his 6 mill/yr comtract....

10-14-2004, 08:22 AM	#1
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	My Argument with the B & G World Oh what a difference a year makes. And not just for the Saints. Have you looked around the league lately? Remember all the guys last year talking 'bout leadership? Tellin' us that what was wrong with the Saints. Lack of leadership from Aaron Brooks. That's the problem!! Ya'll do remember, right? Hopefully some have learned that's not the problem and has never been the problem. Jake Delhomme is the greatest leader since General McAuthor but the Panthers are still 1-3. Oooooppps!! Brett Farve is a Hall of Fame leader but the Packers are still 1-4. Ooooppps!! Then there's McNabb and Culpepper. Superior athletes with not much leadership ability. What's their record? Some of us here have preached for years that the main problem with the Saints has been the defense. And that's still the problem. But I'm sure some still want to blame Brooks. But how many are blaming Delhomme for the Panthers' record? That's about what I thought. I could go on but I've said enough to prove my point. Some will get it and some want. Which is fine. You can never convince everyone here. This team has many problems. Most with I believe come from coaching. But we need help on the offensive and defensive lines. We get pushed around too much and that leads to breakdowns and inconsistency. This team still has a chance. They have enough talent to make the playoffs. I'll hold out hope till there's no chance. Hey, that's what Saints fans do, right?
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

10-14-2004, 08:38 AM	#2
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	My Argument with the B & G World ...and things return to \"normal\"...LOL I\'m sure many can recall the \'ol \"injuries are no excuse\" argument put forth by some of the leading moonshiners. I find it interesting that, when the great Jake Delhomme and his mystic \"it\" quality are mentioned in the same breath as the Panther\'s 1-3 record the very FIRST thing these people mention is all the injuries that Panthers are enduring. There\'s a word for that, but I won\'t use it here.

10-14-2004, 08:45 AM	#3
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	My Argument with the B & G World ...and things return to \"normal\"...LOL I\'m sure many can recall the \'ol \"injuries are no excuse\" argument put forth by some of the leading moonshiners. I find it interesting that, when the great Jake Delhomme and his mystic \"it\" quality are mentioned in the same breath as the Panther\'s 1-3 record the very FIRST thing these people mention is all the injuries that Panthers are enduring. There\'s a word for that, but I won\'t use it here. Are they REALLY trying to use the injury excuse? If so, then they have discredited themselves. Not like they don\'t always do that. They are AGENDA driven and it gets them in trouble. They also have very short memories. But I DO NOT have a short memory. Their problem it that they have painted themselves in a corner and they cant\' get out and save fac e. Keep \'em in line.
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

10-14-2004, 08:57 AM	#4
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	My Argument with the B & G World The thing that upsets me the most is the way that the AB debate is misconstrued... No doubt, AB is criticized often, sometimes overly. I judge him as compared to the other QBs in the league - where he generally ranks in the middle of the pack to slightly above average. He often puts up good numbers in the yards and TDs categories, but hurts himself with low efficiency measures, fumbles, etc. Overall, I think AB is a good QB. However, AARON BROOKS claimed he was a top five QB in the league. Many people on this board have defended him for that. The numbers show that he is not, and never has been. If AB is held to a higher standard, I feel that it is deserving. Afterall, nobody set that standard for AB but AB. Further, people here take criticism of AB as an allegation that he is THE problem with the team. If you go back all the way to the 2002 season you will see that I, for one, never said he was THE problem. In fact, even back then I made the same argument. Suggesting that he is A problem, or that HE COULD perform better is not a suggestion that he is everything that is wrong with this team. In fact, I have held for sometime that the DEFENSE and COACHING staff are the two PRIMARY concerns with this team. I won\'t speak for others on this board, but very few have chosen to blame AB for all of the Saints woes. Regardless of what you want to say about other QBs, AB still has many of the same faults that some of us have cited in the past. He still lacks intangibles, IMO. He is not a good leader, he is not a \"student of the game\", he still doesn\'t seem to read defenses very well. Likewise, he presents a problem in terms of scheme for a coordinator. He has a rocket arm, but he\'s not good at spreading the field b/c he can\'t throw deep very well, nor does he have the touch that many deeper out routes require. This would seem to favor a west coast style attack. However, AB often holds the ball too long and can\'t make the hot read. Those are two things that you simply must have to be successful in the quick hit short routes that characterize the West Coast. I think that is at least PART of the reason for this offense\'s schizophrenia. Play calling is also a problem. Lack of discipline and mental mistakes are probably the biggest. I agree with Billy in that leadership cannot do it on its own. I\'m not sure that argument was ever made. Whether I articulated it well or not in the past, the thing I think the Saints offense needed most for the last year and a half or so is consistent efficient leadership from the QB position. I don\'t think we got it and that has hurt. Likewise, this team has needed discipline, consistency, and leadership. It is not AB\'s responsibility to provide that. It is Haslett\'s. I believe I have criticized Haslett heavily for failing to provide that. As for the athlete QB versus the efficient smart don\'t screw up QB - well, this year\'s results only prove my point further. I have compared the Penningtons, Hasslebacks, and Bradys to the Vicks, Culpeppers, and McNabbs in the past b/c generally there was a clear difference. In recent years, the former group has been highly efficient whereas the later, while undoubtedly more physically gifted, have made plays on their own, but have generally been less efficient. This argument was always, give me a game manager who is smart and efficient over an athlete who is neither of those things. Further, the argument was that the athletes teams have succeeded, but can\'t get over the hump. Philly and Minnesota are two good examples. This year, Billy cites those teams as examples of why the athletes are better, or at least why my argument has no merit. But an examination of the numbers shows that its clear why these guys and their teams are succeeding. Here are the top Qbs in terms of efficiency this year: Culpepper - 126 (3-1) Manning - 114.1 (4-1) McNabb - 110.5 (4-0) Pennington - 100.1 (4-0) Brees - 100 (3-2) Carr - 98.1 (2-3) Brady - 96 (4-0) Harrington - 92.3 (3-1) Rattay - 91.9 (1-4) Hassleback - 91.8 (3-1) Warner - 91.8 (4-1) As you can see, with the exception of Rattay, and maybe Carr (although I think Houston has played much more competitively this year than anyone expected), there seems to be a correlation between an efficient QB and a winning record. Of course I\'ll take a physically gifted QB who can make plays on his own who is ALSO very efficient. But that wasn\'t the argument in the past. The argument was efficiency versus athleticism, and I\'ll take efficiency any day.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

10-14-2004, 12:56 PM	#5
BlackandBlue Kinder, gentler Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,889	My Argument with the B & G World Anyone notice how many QB\'s have ratings over 100 this year, compared to last year? There was, what, 1 player that ended the season last year with a QB rating over 100? Think the pass intereference inforcement has anything to do with that?

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10-14-2004, 01:58 PM	#6
subguy 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: FL Posts: 2,092	My Argument with the B & G World Along with the new forum request might I request a \"yawn\" smiley........because I am soooo bored with the opinion based debate. I think Brooks sucks.......what does it really matter? It does nothing more than chum the waters. This is similar to the presidential debates, has it really changed your mind in how you will vote? Numbers can show anything we want. We are losing. The won-loss record cannot be twisted it tells the tale. And of course, now we have a blast from the past to attempt to rub our noses in something that appeared worthy to him to bring forth. The thread topic was \"my argument with B&G world\". Maybe this should have been more aptly named\"the I fart in your general direction\"thread. We all remember the leadership debates, and those issues still exist, but that is one piece off the puzzle. Don\'t discount ALL of the issues. The team has problems and Brooks is still not a leader. Now what have we gained? [Edited on 14/10/2004 by subguy]
	Don't want em to get your goat don't show em where it's hid.

10-14-2004, 02:18 PM	#7
JOESAM2002 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: CRYSTAL BEACH TEXAS Posts: 4,100	My Argument with the B & G World Sub, I tend to agree with you. I get bored with the same ole same ole all the time too. I try to find NEW and different things to talk about but for some odd reason the conversation goes back to the same old he sux, they suc we suc, no we don\'t no they don\'t no he doesn\'t, why oh why does this keep turning to a personel quarrel? If I had one wish (other than new coaching for the Saints) I\'d have to wish that all this bickering just went away.

10-14-2004, 10:40 PM	#8
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	My Argument with the B & G World Granted. Although I would LOVE to hear Billy\'s or SF\'s reply to this. Come on defenders of AB, expose the agenda. LMAO. [Edited on 15/10/2004 by WhoDat]
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631

10-15-2004, 09:37 AM	#9
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	My Argument with the B & G World Looks like BlackandBlue already did! LMAO :soleil:

10-15-2004, 03:50 PM	#10
TheJudge 100th Post Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 100	My Argument with the B & G World i DO think McNab is a leader... Injurues to your top 2 (now 3) offensive players have hurt the panthers... All i want if for AB to care about what he is doing...please do not laugh about an INT while you walk off the field.... i just want himt o go after the ball if it is fumbled.... try like he used to before he got his 6 mill/yr comtract....
TheJudge 100th Post Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 100