How in the world can..............

saintswhodi · 10-21-2004, 01:29 PM

Like I said Saintfan I don\'t disagree with you, and have read both sides of it. Both make good points but there is one inherent difference in Jake and AB(let me preface this by saying I too believe Brooks can lead us to the Superbowl): Jake is a qb who will not win games for you, but he will not lose them either. He will make the correct throws and limit mistakes more often than not, present season and injuries withstanding. Some people like that kind of qb, some hate them.

AB is the opposite, he WILL win games for you but he WILL lose games for you as well. This is the main crux of many people\'s frustrations with him. Like the Saints in general, you wanna root for AB, but he can rip your heart out sometimes and the next game make you a believer again. This kind of up and down creates turmoil. I am sure that we all wish AB could find a happy medium, cause at that point he will be a much more consistent qb, but it is not gonna happen with the guys we have coaching. Also, the dropped passes and inconsistent o-line definitely hurt AB more than anyone else. So since AB is a player who does have the ability to win games, he needs to be put in positions to do so, and that just isn\'t happening. I will be patiently watching to see if he develops at a more rapid pace under a new regime. But I close again in saying AB is not the problem, this year. Those fumbles from last year still tick me off though.

WhoDat · 10-21-2004, 01:54 PM

Almost time for another round of BC\'s greatest hits I see. LOL!!!

JKool · 10-21-2004, 02:04 PM

Gator, I gotta agree with you again, there is absolutely nothing wrong with changing your mind. That is the point of actually discussing.

I also agree that all this agenda stuff is based on a historical argument that requires the belief that no one could have every misspoke, exaggerated, or have changed their mind. I don\'t get it. Other than 08, who clearly states when he\'s making something up, I think that it should not be assumed that someone has the same position for the same reason. I also argued LONG AGO that attacks on the person, rather than the content of the post were innane. Do you remember the response I got to this? I do. Everyone told me to shut up because it was important to make sure that everyone understood the AGENDA. Hmmm. I\'m glad people are coming around to this.

Billy and Saintfan, as usual, I agree that Brooks is far from the problem. On the other hand, and maybe this is just my faulty perception here, I don\'t remember too many people complaining about Brooks who didn\'t retract those arguments once pushed.

Whodi, thanks for your courage to continue to try and make sense of the claims you hear here. In my opinion, you are the best new poster we\'ve had in some time.

Now, two points:
1. Gator, I don\'t think I get your \"half truths\" point? I think that no one intended to leave anything out (i.e. present only half the information) to mislead people. People present arguments that are on one side or the other, certainly - sometimes both sides (as is the case in your flip-flop analogy). It is up to the others to determine whether or not they are correct - either by additional investigation or presentation of counter arguments, don\'t you think?

2. Billy, where the heck are you? At any rate, here is argument for you that I\'ve been considering. QBs are strongly influenced by their coaches. QBs have a critical development period (something like the first 4 or 5 years). If a QB does not develop during that critical period, they will not reach their full potential. Haz has caused AB to be a bit babied and not pressed as hard as he could have been. This has caused AB to miss his development period. Thus, AB has reached as high as he can at this point, due to Haz. A change of scenery may help AB get that little bit more he can.

I argued that a coaching change may be sufficient to get AB to get that little bit more he can (and right now I still believe that), but the reply was that only a change of scenery could help. Don\'t get me wrong, I think AB is a fine QB (as you know), but as far as his development goes, what say you to these ideas?

saintfan · 10-21-2004, 02:19 PM

Jake is a qb who will not win games for you, but he will not lose them either.

Well I agreed with you up \'til there. I think he\'ll lose games just like any other QB will lose games. Jake makes a LOT of ill-advised throws...a LOT of \'em. Up \'til now he\'s had receivers that could bail him out, and bail him out they did. I\'ll get hit over the head with something for saying it, but his luck has run out. Those things even out in the end.

saintswhodi · 10-21-2004, 03:24 PM

I don\'t know Saintfan. People were saying Muhammed was gonna be cut because of his salary and lack of production before Jake got there. I know many people remember it being said Steve Smith could not be a #1 receiver, only a return man. I think that had as much to do with Jake as Jake being successful had to do with them. For example, no bigger stage than the Superbowl. Jake did not lose this game for them. He put the ball in a position for his players to make plays, and they did, and almost win. In the biggest game of his life, first year starting, he was the offensive star of his team. But he wasn\'t spectacular. He put others around him in a position ot do what they do. I can\'t say I saw him personally lose too many games last year, this year is a different story though.

And JKool, thanks for the kind words. I appreciate that.

[Edited on 21/10/2004 by saintswhodi]

saintfan · 10-21-2004, 03:31 PM

Indeed he did...and as I recall I was on this very board after the game giving Jake his props. BUT, who leads the league in INT\'s?

When a guy underthrows a pass by 10 yards and the receiver has the presence of mind to come back for the ball, I credit the WR. When the QB throws off his back foot, going backwards, and tosses the ball 15 yards down the field where NONE of his receivers are, and one of his teammates manages to get himself to the ball, then the guy I credit isn\'t the QB. This is not to say Jake doesn\'t have great touch, because he does, but he makes equally bad decisions.

WhoDat · 10-21-2004, 03:34 PM

I also agree that all this agenda stuff is based on a historical argument that requires the belief that no one could have every misspoke, exaggerated, or have changed their mind. I don\'t get it. Other than 08, who clearly states when he\'s making something up, I think that it should not be assumed that someone has the same position for the same reason. I also argued LONG AGO that attacks on the person, rather than the content of the post were innane. Do you remember the response I got to this? I do. Everyone told me to shut up because it was important to make sure that everyone understood the AGENDA. Hmmm. I\'m glad people are coming around to this.

Wait just a second there... not EVERYone. I for one egged you on... of course I nicknamed you granola boy, but I was a big fan of the tree huggin\' granola eatin\' bongo playin\' can\'t we all just get along message you were spreadin\' all over this land.

LOL

saintswhodi · 10-21-2004, 03:48 PM

Saintsfan, since we seem to both agree Jake was a better player last year, could the injuries to the parts around him and regression of the offensive line in front of him have something to do with his poor play?

Let\'s take Jay Fiedler as an example in Miami. 33-14 or something crazy like that with Miami. Ricky leaves and where does he and his team go? Into the crapper. Bledsoe has not been the same since Price left and their o-line became swiss cheese. Seems to me that maybe the circumstances around Jake changed and not Jake, as can happen for many qbs. As I said, he is not a playmaker so him trying to be one doesn\'t fit, leading to mistakes. That\'s the Jake we see this year. That\'s just my take though. I don\'t think it makes either of us wrong if we see it differently.

saintfan · 10-21-2004, 03:53 PM

Of course the injuries matter. I agree with you totally. My point where the Brooks bashers (the ones with their feelings on their sleeves recently) would NEVER recognize them...still won\'t.

The thing with Jake is he\'s doing what he\'s always done...tossin the ball down the middle of the field with no idea where it\'s going...only now there\'s no one on the other end to bail him out. He actually threw a TD pass that way earlier this year. The guy was on his way down and threw the ball straight up into the air. The TE ran over and caught the ball. This isn\'t talent or leadership or \"it\" or whatever some wanna call it, it\'s luck, and his has run out.

saintswhodi · 10-21-2004, 04:11 PM

I did see the pass in question and that was a ridiculous play. Just boneheaded. The tight end most definitely bailed him out on that play. Not at all like the Delhomme of last year, but I have already stated my reason as to why that is. I guess when everyone gets healthy and they hopefully address their line situation(or maybe not since this is better for the Saints) we will see which Jake is true. Hey, better for the Saints if he is really a bust right?

And I can\'t be counted among the Brooks bashers so I really can\'t speak to that situation. As I said I like Jake and AB but I can see how people could dislike either.

10-21-2004, 01:29 PM	#11
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	How in the world can.............. Like I said Saintfan I don\'t disagree with you, and have read both sides of it. Both make good points but there is one inherent difference in Jake and AB(let me preface this by saying I too believe Brooks can lead us to the Superbowl): Jake is a qb who will not win games for you, but he will not lose them either. He will make the correct throws and limit mistakes more often than not, present season and injuries withstanding. Some people like that kind of qb, some hate them. AB is the opposite, he WILL win games for you but he WILL lose games for you as well. This is the main crux of many people\'s frustrations with him. Like the Saints in general, you wanna root for AB, but he can rip your heart out sometimes and the next game make you a believer again. This kind of up and down creates turmoil. I am sure that we all wish AB could find a happy medium, cause at that point he will be a much more consistent qb, but it is not gonna happen with the guys we have coaching. Also, the dropped passes and inconsistent o-line definitely hurt AB more than anyone else. So since AB is a player who does have the ability to win games, he needs to be put in positions to do so, and that just isn\'t happening. I will be patiently watching to see if he develops at a more rapid pace under a new regime. But I close again in saying AB is not the problem, this year. Those fumbles from last year still tick me off though.

10-21-2004, 01:54 PM	#12
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	How in the world can.............. Almost time for another round of BC\'s greatest hits I see. LOL!!!
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631

10-21-2004, 02:04 PM	#13
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	How in the world can.............. Gator, I gotta agree with you again, there is absolutely nothing wrong with changing your mind. That is the point of actually discussing. I also agree that all this agenda stuff is based on a historical argument that requires the belief that no one could have every misspoke, exaggerated, or have changed their mind. I don\'t get it. Other than 08, who clearly states when he\'s making something up, I think that it should not be assumed that someone has the same position for the same reason. I also argued LONG AGO that attacks on the person, rather than the content of the post were innane. Do you remember the response I got to this? I do. Everyone told me to shut up because it was important to make sure that everyone understood the AGENDA. Hmmm. I\'m glad people are coming around to this. Billy and Saintfan, as usual, I agree that Brooks is far from the problem. On the other hand, and maybe this is just my faulty perception here, I don\'t remember too many people complaining about Brooks who didn\'t retract those arguments once pushed. Whodi, thanks for your courage to continue to try and make sense of the claims you hear here. In my opinion, you are the best new poster we\'ve had in some time. Now, two points: 1. Gator, I don\'t think I get your \"half truths\" point? I think that no one intended to leave anything out (i.e. present only half the information) to mislead people. People present arguments that are on one side or the other, certainly - sometimes both sides (as is the case in your flip-flop analogy). It is up to the others to determine whether or not they are correct - either by additional investigation or presentation of counter arguments, don\'t you think? 2. Billy, where the heck are you? At any rate, here is argument for you that I\'ve been considering. QBs are strongly influenced by their coaches. QBs have a critical development period (something like the first 4 or 5 years). If a QB does not develop during that critical period, they will not reach their full potential. Haz has caused AB to be a bit babied and not pressed as hard as he could have been. This has caused AB to miss his development period. Thus, AB has reached as high as he can at this point, due to Haz. A change of scenery may help AB get that little bit more he can. I argued that a coaching change may be sufficient to get AB to get that little bit more he can (and right now I still believe that), but the reply was that only a change of scenery could help. Don\'t get me wrong, I think AB is a fine QB (as you know), but as far as his development goes, what say you to these ideas?
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

10-21-2004, 02:19 PM	#14
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	How in the world can.............. Jake is a qb who will not win games for you, but he will not lose them either. Well I agreed with you up \'til there. I think he\'ll lose games just like any other QB will lose games. Jake makes a LOT of ill-advised throws...a LOT of \'em. Up \'til now he\'s had receivers that could bail him out, and bail him out they did. I\'ll get hit over the head with something for saying it, but his luck has run out. Those things even out in the end.

10-21-2004, 03:24 PM	#15
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	How in the world can.............. I don\'t know Saintfan. People were saying Muhammed was gonna be cut because of his salary and lack of production before Jake got there. I know many people remember it being said Steve Smith could not be a #1 receiver, only a return man. I think that had as much to do with Jake as Jake being successful had to do with them. For example, no bigger stage than the Superbowl. Jake did not lose this game for them. He put the ball in a position for his players to make plays, and they did, and almost win. In the biggest game of his life, first year starting, he was the offensive star of his team. But he wasn\'t spectacular. He put others around him in a position ot do what they do. I can\'t say I saw him personally lose too many games last year, this year is a different story though. And JKool, thanks for the kind words. I appreciate that. [Edited on 21/10/2004 by saintswhodi]

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10-21-2004, 03:31 PM	#16
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	How in the world can.............. Indeed he did...and as I recall I was on this very board after the game giving Jake his props. BUT, who leads the league in INT\'s? When a guy underthrows a pass by 10 yards and the receiver has the presence of mind to come back for the ball, I credit the WR. When the QB throws off his back foot, going backwards, and tosses the ball 15 yards down the field where NONE of his receivers are, and one of his teammates manages to get himself to the ball, then the guy I credit isn\'t the QB. This is not to say Jake doesn\'t have great touch, because he does, but he makes equally bad decisions.
	C'mon Man...

10-21-2004, 03:34 PM	#17
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	How in the world can.............. I also agree that all this agenda stuff is based on a historical argument that requires the belief that no one could have every misspoke, exaggerated, or have changed their mind. I don\'t get it. Other than 08, who clearly states when he\'s making something up, I think that it should not be assumed that someone has the same position for the same reason. I also argued LONG AGO that attacks on the person, rather than the content of the post were innane. Do you remember the response I got to this? I do. Everyone told me to shut up because it was important to make sure that everyone understood the AGENDA. Hmmm. I\'m glad people are coming around to this. Wait just a second there... not EVERYone. I for one egged you on... of course I nicknamed you granola boy, but I was a big fan of the tree huggin\' granola eatin\' bongo playin\' can\'t we all just get along message you were spreadin\' all over this land. LOL
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631

10-21-2004, 03:48 PM	#18
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	How in the world can.............. Saintsfan, since we seem to both agree Jake was a better player last year, could the injuries to the parts around him and regression of the offensive line in front of him have something to do with his poor play? Let\'s take Jay Fiedler as an example in Miami. 33-14 or something crazy like that with Miami. Ricky leaves and where does he and his team go? Into the crapper. Bledsoe has not been the same since Price left and their o-line became swiss cheese. Seems to me that maybe the circumstances around Jake changed and not Jake, as can happen for many qbs. As I said, he is not a playmaker so him trying to be one doesn\'t fit, leading to mistakes. That\'s the Jake we see this year. That\'s just my take though. I don\'t think it makes either of us wrong if we see it differently.

10-21-2004, 03:53 PM	#19
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	How in the world can.............. Of course the injuries matter. I agree with you totally. My point where the Brooks bashers (the ones with their feelings on their sleeves recently) would NEVER recognize them...still won\'t. The thing with Jake is he\'s doing what he\'s always done...tossin the ball down the middle of the field with no idea where it\'s going...only now there\'s no one on the other end to bail him out. He actually threw a TD pass that way earlier this year. The guy was on his way down and threw the ball straight up into the air. The TE ran over and caught the ball. This isn\'t talent or leadership or \"it\" or whatever some wanna call it, it\'s luck, and his has run out.
	C'mon Man...

10-21-2004, 04:11 PM	#20
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	How in the world can.............. I did see the pass in question and that was a ridiculous play. Just boneheaded. The tight end most definitely bailed him out on that play. Not at all like the Delhomme of last year, but I have already stated my reason as to why that is. I guess when everyone gets healthy and they hopefully address their line situation(or maybe not since this is better for the Saints) we will see which Jake is true. Hey, better for the Saints if he is really a bust right? And I can\'t be counted among the Brooks bashers so I really can\'t speak to that situation. As I said I like Jake and AB but I can see how people could dislike either.