Offensive Line (educational)
 

I see we do not have a lot of people that have played offensive line. Here is a little educational information that should help steer you on your mock-draft scenarios.

While Left Tackle is the most important offensive lineman for protecting the QB, there is more to the game than protecting the QB.. There is running, screens, etc... Teams starting investing high dollar in LTs when QBs because expensive.

You see, having a damn good Center takes a lot off of Drew Brees. How many delay of game penalties have we seen while Drew is making the lineman calls pre-snap?

Watch the whole video.

Payton Maiining's left hand was Jeff Saturday.

Read the Roles section and think about how many LBs shoot our inside gap and get to Drew. Never picked up.

While LT is the most important player for protecting the QBs blind side, he gets his blocking assignment from the Center... If the Center makes the wrong call, the LT is worthless.

Yes, Charles Brown is a liability but if i am drafting on draft day and not drafting BPA, I am grabbing the best Center on the board in the first round. He will make for a better Saints o-line and allow Drew to focus where he needs to.

Where do QBs go when the pocket is collapsing around them.. They step up... Cant do that when the Center is being pushed back in your face.

Re: Offensive Line (educational)
 

Excellent point. I'm not too high on DLP, and never really was, but I also never considered this. Best post in a while.

Re: Offensive Line (educational)
 

In my opinion, de la Puente is not necessarily the problem. Communication is the problem. I would argue that's as much because we are constantly shuffling 4-5 different people on and off the field on every play. For road games I would like to see the offense dumbed down a little bit and keep the same personnel groupings on the field for longer stretches.

If you're talking about offensive line strictly, I would argue that both Brown and Grubbs are bigger problems than the center. Brown has been an issue all year, and while Grubbs isn't bad, he's not that great either. Certainly not worth the $9 a year contract he's getting.

Re: Offensive Line (educational)
 

We have gone from Bushrod-Nicks to Brown-Grubbs that is a massive downgrade whatever you think of Bushrod.Nicks was able to control the left side well and help Bushrod-DLP aswell as keep his own man occupied. There has been a drop in Evans game since the Grubbs-Nicks trade too imo. DLP+Strief are cheaper options and Evans-Grubbs are not playing up to there deals.

Re: Offensive Line (educational)
 

We have shuffled people off and on the field since Sean Payton has been here.

Alternative view... DLP not handling the calls at the LoS is the biggest issue. If he were doing that, Drew wouldn't have had multiple delay of game penalties after frikken time outs.

Here is something most do not realize... You know where we have the most rushing success? Between Brown and Grubs, Most rushing TDs between Brown and Grubs, most yards after contact and broken tackles.. between Brown and Grubs. Best two Run Blocking linemen graded till now? Brown and Grubs...

Re: Offensive Line (educational)
 

Evans and Nicks/Bushrod are opposite sides of the field brother. They do not effect each other.

Know who else we lost around the Bushrod/Nicks time frame? Jonathan Goodwin... He tied both sides together, and is presently in SF greading out at a +5 for Run Blocking while DLP is grading out at -2.7.. He did preform fairly sh1tty his last year as a Saint though.

We lost Goodwin in 2011, Nicks in 2012, Bushrod in 2013.

Re: Offensive Line (educational)
 

Great thread, AND,

Drew is a surgeon, but he has no survival instinct. If he did he would grow legs and get the hell out of that collapsing pocket.

We do defenses a favor by allowing them to concentrate on everyone BUT Drew gaining yards by running a football.

Alaska

Re: Offensive Line (educational)
 

We tried to replace these guys, but hey that's football.
W'eve got a HOF caliber QB so we'll be fine.

Re: Offensive Line (educational)
 

Not as much as in the last couple years. It's gotten too cute. I can understand 1-2 guys coming off regularly but it's too much. Getting 4-5 guys on the field, then setting everything up has to take a lot of time. Especially on the road, we are getting down to the wire on the play clock on a regular basis and you know that has a bad effect on timing. The offensive is unprepared at the snap, and I have a hard time believing that is all on the center. Some of it has to be due to the delay of getting all those personnel groupings in and then whatever checkdowns and audibles are going on.

Re: Offensive Line (educational)
 

Your knowledge is beyond genius.

I am holding my breathe and stepping way from the gut punch from this weekend and The Oak, inspired me to relook at the path I started to descend because of a comment I heard on Sirus NFL about watching film.

The Oak, please accept my respect and acknowledgement of the strongest tree in the forest. My personal motto is "Age quod agis".

I have digested Pat Kerwin's book, Take Your Eye Off the Ball: How to Watch Football by Knowing Where to Look (2010). It is now my dog-eared football bible, pencil notes in the margin and water damage from relaxing in the bathtub.

I think this acquired knowledge resulted in a different NFL experience this weekend in St. Louis. I don't like how I felt walking out of Edward Jones after the game last night. I had the luxury to choose my sight lines versus being fed by Fox Sports.

I am considering NFL Rewind to dissect games.

How do you do it? Your contributions compliment / enhance what Kirwan gave me on paper.

Re: Offensive Line (educational)
 

This makes for quite the conundrum. I wanted to draft defense again. But that is looking less and less like a priority. dlp has not impressed in a long time. Let's not forget that we have Armstead waiting in the wings.

Re: Offensive Line (educational)
 

How many snaps has Armstead taken this season? I'm just wondering if there is any film on him.
But yes, great point. We need an upgrade at center in a bad way, and because were not the Dallas cowbys, we can get one somewhere after the first round and hopefully get another piece to compliment Jordan/Gallette

Re: Offensive Line (educational)
 

Yes and no... Watch old games of Drew under pressure, he stepped up into the pocket and let it collapse in the back of him, I have heard many an analyst (hate referencing analysts) comment on how good he is at stepping up into the pocket and taking the hit to stay on target.

This season more than most others we seem the pocket collapsing around the rear of the pocket but when drew steps up, instead of 3-4 feet he has only 1-2 feet and that's a lot shorter than the wingspan of an NFL player.

Look at it from another angle, have you ever seen our RBs get nailed behind the line of scrimmage as much as you have seen it this year? Same logic, the defense resets the LoS 1-2 yards in the back field instead of us resetting it 1-2 yards on their side.


Watch how strange the numbers get. (assumption being that a blitz is the most pressure)

9 INTs when not being blitzed
1 INT when being blitzed

14 sackes when Blitzed
16 sacks when not being blitzed

QBR when not blitzed 101.1
QBR when being blitzed 112.9

Players stay back to block when there is a blitz, when there isnt its the line that isn't protecting him.

Now this will blow your mind.
Drew Brees Completion % with 2.5 sec or less in the pocket - 77.5% #1 in the NFL
Drew Brees average time to Pass Attempt 2.64s 17th in the NFL
Drew Brees average time to sack 3.63s only 2 QBS have shorter times Brady and Manning


Oops sorry I lost track. I ran the numbers before but need to run them again. As i remember it drew is hit/sacked more by LB than any DEs. That points to DLP.

Offensive Line (educational)
 

Everything I can find says he played Special teams against NE... Nothing else.


That said, if Lolito is dressing out we wouldn't carry another lineman. Strief was out against NE wasn't he?

Re: Offensive Line (educational)
 

I agree and this is why I stated in a post about three weeks ago, that the line began to deteriorate with loss of Goodwin to the 49ers and the failed signing of Kruetz. With Kruetz we were counting on him playing at a high level to match what we were getting in Goodwin.

Re: Offensive Line (educational)
 

This is also why you build your football team from the inside out on both offense and defense. Center and Guards to open running lanes and set the picket, DT/NG to clog runnung lanes/occupy blockers and get push to collapse pocket.

Re: Offensive Line (educational)
 

Thanks for finding that...I believe Strief was out that game, I would have to check back though.
I'm wondering how the whole Armstead experiment is going. He has the athleticism to be a hulluva player....
Back to DLP, I remember during the Tampa game when Ingram got stuffed at the goal line, it was DLP getting blown up and knocked 3 yards back.

Re: Offensive Line (educational)
 

We may have our answer soon since Coach Payton is looking at changing the LT.

Re: Offensive Line (educational)
 

NFL Saints mulling personnel changes - ESPN
This story will shed light on my last post.

Re: Offensive Line (educational)
 

That exactly is what I am seeing. And while I appreciate your post very much ( and certainly learned some things ), it is hard for me to believe that the phenomenon you reference here is entirely the center's fault.

I think our entire O-line needs work. Offensively, everything really starts with the O-line. And, the way back-up and rookie QBs are playing this year -- kinda makes you wonder if O-line and skill positions' importance shouldn't be quite so over-shadowed, by the QB, from a financial perspective. Ya know what I mean?

Re: Offensive Line (educational)
 

"Drew Brees average time to sack 3.63s only 2 QBS have shorter times Brady and Manning"

Yep. That does blow my mind. Where did you get that from? What this suggests is that with a great QB, you don't have to have an amazing O-line. Is that what this stat suggests?

Re: Offensive Line (educational)
 

I'm all for replacing Brown and DLP but not the week of a game that can make or break the future of this post season

Offensive Line (educational)
 

Yes and no..... Most fans watch the ball and are relatively clueless as to who misses some blocks in the running game.

Familiar with a "trap block"?
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/12/17/bu4a6eqy.jpg
For the sake of this discussion both sides are the same as in Right side o-line is over Right side d-line.

Right Side DT crushes TB...... 98% of fans blame RT.

The trap block means it was actually the LGs responsibility to block the RDT. Notice the black line crossing in front of the Center.

With me so far? Yes you are.

Now....... The complicated nuances of the offensive line. The Center comes off the ball and gets jammed at the line.

When the LG pulls it's fast.... Very fast. Ball snapped, pivot right explode fast. He has to get to that RDT before that RB hits the hole.

But chit... He pivoted ad exploded into the side of the Center because he didn't get out if the way, never made it to the RDT, and the RB was crushed at the line of scrimmage.

Right tackle gets blamed or Right guard gets blamed
The Left Guard missed the block
It was all the Centers fault.

If you are with me to this point you'll understand some of my past comments about the offensive line being more about how the group plays together than how good each of them are individually. It's synchronized swimming with 1600 pounds of beast. It's the 100 empty coke cans that hold up the man because they all pull their weight evenly.

Re: Offensive Line (educational)
 

Also heard some analyst comment that the majority of pressure Drew received were stunts that confused our O-line.

We obviously had our fair share of getting beat man-on-man, but there were a lot of plays where our O-linemen were simply clueless who to block. And a lot of these were simple D-line stunts.

Kromer anyone?

Re: Offensive Line (educational)
 

ALEX MACK FA TARGET . DRAFT RT OG.

Re: Offensive Line (educational)
 

Here is another trap block... Notice the guard pulls all the way to the left defensive end.http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/12/17/emuse7u6.jpg

Re: Offensive Line (educational)
 

Way too many hugs and kisses for my taste.:p

Good stuff Oak.

Re: Offensive Line (educational)
 

Kromer had us blocking man, down hill. His replacement brought in the zone blocking. Ingalls or Sean decided we switch to zone. It's like 2012 but on the opposite side of the ball. Scheme and players are not a match.

Re: Offensive Line (educational)
 

Here's to drafting the next Willie Roaf

Re: Offensive Line (educational)
 

I think its a perfect example of change for the sake of change backfiring on us.

We weren't great at run blocking in our previous man scheme, but we didn't totally suck either. So we changed to zone blocking thinking we'd improve, but we didn't, we actually got worse.

You'd think after the Spags debacle we'd learned our lesson about square pegs and round holes.

Re: Offensive Line (educational)
 

I think we have him in Armstead and I heard he was receiving tips from Roaf since they were from the same part of Arkansas

Re: Offensive Line (educational)
 

A question that should have been asked is, how important is the o-line coach. I would like to know seeing how we lost ours this year and there is a obvious decline in pass protection

Re: Offensive Line (educational)
 

I'm with you. That was really helpful and instructive, Oak. I see your point. Thank you.

===========================================

Not sure if you saw this question: "Drew Brees average time to sack 3.63s only 2 QBS have shorter times Brady and Manning"

Yep. That does blow my mind. Where did you get that from? What this suggests is that with a great QB, you don't have to have an amazing O-line. Is that what this stat suggests?

Re: Offensive Line (educational)
 

Zone is supposed to be a better scheme when you have players who are not great at man blocking in the running game. To block man you need maulers, especially in the middle but we don't have any since we lost Nicks, Faine, Goodwin etc. In the xone game you empoy a lot of double teams and cutblocks which usually makes it a better scheme for less physical linemen. I personally believe it is the implementation of the scheme that hasn't worked and not the scheme in itself.

Re: Offensive Line (educational)
 

When you gut your proven linemen all in the name of saving money for a monster QB salary, you get what you get... Hate to say it but I don't really believe Drew can hold up to the pounding he's going to take in the next few weeks.

It is, what it is....

Re: Offensive Line (educational)
 

The Internetz must have eaten my previous reply. :)

I honestly think that stat has nothing to do with
the line per say but it does speak to two things.

1. They all get rid of the ball very quickly and their receivers run regimented routs.

2. None of the three are exactly fleet footed. Drew can scramble and run but doesn't, Brady and Manning remind me more of new born baby giraffes than scrambling QBs.

"If" and I say "if" because it is a huge part of this statement... If the receivers are able to run their routs as they are supposed to; not getting held up at the line, and being on step... all the o-line has to do is get in the way of defenders. Some QBs throw to an open receiver, some throw to an x on the field. Go back and watch 2009 and 2010, you will see what I mean... Now come to 2013, who has the highest % of receptions made (percentage of times thrown to that a reception was made)? Kenny Stills he runs tight routes and has not lost a step.

I know I am going to get roasted for this but its my gut feeling based on what I see from our receiving corps. Meachem, Moore, Colston are getting into their 6th, 7th, and 8th seasons and they are not as healthy or fast as they were in 2009/2010. One could say I have no clue but when you look at what was brought in this year you see clones of them. Stills/Moore, Toon/Colston Toon's hands are crap, Meachem/Hendersons replacement is Morgan but he cant stay healthy.

Re: Offensive Line (educational)
 

Sorry but this is where the BS has to come to an end.

Lost Goodwin and Stinchcomb in 2011 - nothing to do with Drews Contract
Lost Bushrod and Nicks in 2012 -Drews Contract was at the start of 2012 and his new contract lowered his 2012 cap from 11.7M to 10.4M so Nicks was not fall out of that.

Bushrod wanted more than he was worth period.

Suck it up ladies... This was the first year Drews contract effected anyone else.

Brown is starting because Brown was hurt and came back able to start.. not because we couldn't afford anyone else. DLP was starting before Drew's contract effected our cap and so was Grubs.

This thread will be educational, like it or not.

Re: Offensive Line (educational)
 

I think the only lineman it really affected was Nicks. But thats a two-way street. Brees' agent and Loomis couldn't get a deal worked out in time and we weren't able to franchise Nicks, or max out his deal.

So was it Drew's agent? Or was it Loomis?

Either way we still made a fair offer for Nicks, he even said so in the press. He chose to bolt for a few million more.

But yeah, the whole blame Drew's contract has to stop. If I had to blame anyone's contract I'd blame Will Smith's, Jonathan Vilma's and Roman Harper's. They added up to more cap than Drew's contract did.

Re: Offensive Line (educational)
 

I wonder if Nicks had to do it all over again after what has happened to him in Tampa if he would have stayed for a couple million less.

Re: Offensive Line (educational)
 

I have no doubt he regrets that decision more than any he's ever made.