Past, present, and future draft question

saintswhodi · 11-04-2004, 03:20 PM

Thinking about the draft, and watching the impact rookies have made the past several seasons, I had to ask myself so I am asking you guys also, why is it we never draft an impact rookie? Not necessarily these positions but players like Roy Williams(Dallas and Detroit) Anquan Boldin, Roethlisberger, Carr, Randy Moss, Terrence Newman, Trufant, Dunta Robinson, Vilma, D.J. Johnson, Julius Peppers, Kearse. Is it just me or does it seem like every draft we have is for players that need to develop? Has there ever been a time where we as a team had a rookie that lit it up? Even Ricky Williams got off to a slow start here. Is it where we pick in the draft, or the lack of talent evaluators in the front office every year? I remember passing on Moss(so did 18 other teams) but I also remember passing on Eddie George for Alex Molden. So is this our draft legacy, to always draft slow developing players who more often than not don't pan out? Will we ever get better?

Also, I guarantee if you look at draft history, every year you can pick out several guys we should have taken instead of the ones we did pick and see how much bigger impacts the players we didn't pick have had. I know because I have done it. Thoughts................

shadowdrinker_x · 11-04-2004, 04:02 PM

thats what i have been saying..but...very few agree with me...i think things will really start to pick up after we have some personel changes...front office..coaches...it is coming..it has to..but..who?...who will we get that can make the kind of impact we need?...is there really even a better choice than haslett out there?..some will say this and that about some college coach that looks too good to be true..and probably is..i think the only real hope we have is to get a coach or two that is fired after this year...lovie smith?..if chicago lets him go..they won\'t though..not this soon...maybe mora would come back?..i doubt it ..when he quit..he said he was disgusted with this team...i really don\'t know...i mean..aren\'t we all sick of taking chances on rookies?..well..coaches can be rookies as well...maybe jimmy johnson/..that would be about our only real hope...i think has will be a good coach at some position..whether it is d co..or special teams co...maybe a lb co...but..this just isn\'t working anymore...

turbo_dog · 11-04-2004, 04:14 PM

Lots of teams passed on Deuce, but we picked him. I think Grant has been an impact player, too.

As far as your question about whether or not we can find someone better than Haslett...

Hell Yes

saintswhodi · 11-04-2004, 05:17 PM

I think you missed the question turbo. Duece did not make an impact in his rookie year, but he was behind Ricky, unless the impact you mean is he allowed us to trade Ricky, then that was a big one. Grant was solid in his rookie year, but no Julius Peppers or Terrell Suggs. I am asking why we never get guys who make impacts in their ROOKIE years. Examples are the players I listed.

RDOX · 11-04-2004, 07:54 PM

I think you missed the question turbo. Duece did not make an impact in his rookie year, but he was behind Ricky, unless the impact you mean is he allowed us to trade Ricky, then that was a big one. Grant was solid in his rookie year, but no Julius Peppers or Terrell Suggs. I am asking why we never get guys who make impacts in their ROOKIE years. Examples are the players I listed.

We USED to get impact players as rookies, Dalton Hilliard, George Rogers, Rickey Jackson, Pat Swilling, Morton Anderson Joe Johnson, Jim Dombrowski to name a few. We will NOT get rookies to make an impact on this team until we change who is in charge of the FRONT OFFICE and the COACHING STAFF, because they\'re counting \"cap dollars\" and how to get \"Speed.\" Too bad they can\'t seem to find FOOTBALL PLAYERS!!

Until we change the management of this team and put someone with FOOTBALL Sense into the GM spot, we are doomed to repeat the same stupidity year after year. The lunatics are running the asylum.

dberce1 · 11-05-2004, 09:28 AM

SaintsWhodi,

I would highly appreciate it if you would never bring up the fact that we passed on RANDY MOSS ever again. Anyone else, fine, but not Moss. I\'d rather go through natural childbirth than think what we \"coulda\" had.

SaintFanInATLHELL · 11-05-2004, 09:56 AM

SaintsWhodi,

I would highly appreciate it if you would never bring up the fact that we passed on RANDY MOSS ever again. Anyone else, fine, but not Moss. I\'d rather go through natural childbirth than think what we \"coulda\" had.

Just one comment. Moss wouldn\'t have worked for the Saints. The lack of leadership and coaching would have simply ruined him. Cris Carter and Denny Green were both essential for his development. He wasn\'t a finished product coming out of Marshall.

Maybe once we get a new coaching staff, and hopefully a new front office, in, then we can rethink picking up talented yet unfinished draft picks (see one J. Sullivan for example). But until then our first pick should be the most complete and accomplished senior in a need area that we can locate. I think both Smith and Watson this year are good examples of that. Henderson on the other hand hasn\'t played because his agent wanted $15,000 more on the contract. Can you say stupid?!

SFIAH

saintswhodi · 11-05-2004, 10:30 AM

SFIAH,

I think you and I have had this Moss discussion before so I won\'t get into it again except to say I still disagree.

dberce,

Trust me, I feel the pain every Sunday of not having drafted Moss. I apologize for my insensitivity of opening old wounds.

johnnythesaint · 11-05-2004, 10:43 AM

It is just a thought, but the players you mentioned, seem to have one commonality, they joined teams with a clear direction, and more importantly, there seems to have been schematic changes to allow them to flourish. I believe, that the saints since time immemorial have lacked a certain creativity in their broader approach to play-calling. Admittedly, in Mora\'s heyday there was a ferociousness to the Linebackers, but I attribute that to having CHARACTER, something that is rarely drafted with any accuracy by scouts. The transition from successful college days character to professional character seems to be hit or miss for most of the league. Basically, scouts draft for talent, they pay lipservice to character. Just looking at who we\'ve picked up mid-season underlines Haslett\'s quest for character. Hall and Macafee are prime examples of sparkplugs who can have intangible effects on the overall play of the team. Basically, what I\'m saying is that picking prime time players in the draft is little more than a crapshoot, any coach who has been through multiple drafts will attest. You just have to hold your breath on opening day. I started out wanting to criticize the Saints lack of creative schemes, but ultimately wandered into the larger truth for the NFL, maybe next year we\'ll strike gold, who the hell really knows?

saintswhodi · 11-05-2004, 11:48 AM

JTS,

Don\'t really disagree with your crap shoot theory about the draft except for one thing, the players we are missing on are getting picked AFTER we draft someone. Kevin Williams for the Vikes is another example. We didn\'t take Trufant but we could have taken him if we wanted a DT, the leader in sacks for DTs in the league since last year. We drafted Sullivan. So while the draft is a crap shoot, we seem to be shooting more crap than prizes for the last 5-10 years. Even San Diego\'s drafts are starting to pay off better than ours have, especially with Brees doing so well now. I refuse to believe the Chargers front office can evaluate talent better than ours, but maybe they can. LT, Brees, Eric Parker, Gates, Jammer, Kiel, Olshansky. I would welcome any of those guys on our team.

11-04-2004, 03:20 PM	#1
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Past, present, and future draft question Thinking about the draft, and watching the impact rookies have made the past several seasons, I had to ask myself so I am asking you guys also, why is it we never draft an impact rookie? Not necessarily these positions but players like Roy Williams(Dallas and Detroit) Anquan Boldin, Roethlisberger, Carr, Randy Moss, Terrence Newman, Trufant, Dunta Robinson, Vilma, D.J. Johnson, Julius Peppers, Kearse. Is it just me or does it seem like every draft we have is for players that need to develop? Has there ever been a time where we as a team had a rookie that lit it up? Even Ricky Williams got off to a slow start here. Is it where we pick in the draft, or the lack of talent evaluators in the front office every year? I remember passing on Moss(so did 18 other teams) but I also remember passing on Eddie George for Alex Molden. So is this our draft legacy, to always draft slow developing players who more often than not don't pan out? Will we ever get better? Also, I guarantee if you look at draft history, every year you can pick out several guys we should have taken instead of the ones we did pick and see how much bigger impacts the players we didn't pick have had. I know because I have done it. Thoughts................

11-04-2004, 04:02 PM	#2
shadowdrinker_x Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 218	Past, present, and future draft question thats what i have been saying..but...very few agree with me...i think things will really start to pick up after we have some personel changes...front office..coaches...it is coming..it has to..but..who?...who will we get that can make the kind of impact we need?...is there really even a better choice than haslett out there?..some will say this and that about some college coach that looks too good to be true..and probably is..i think the only real hope we have is to get a coach or two that is fired after this year...lovie smith?..if chicago lets him go..they won\'t though..not this soon...maybe mora would come back?..i doubt it ..when he quit..he said he was disgusted with this team...i really don\'t know...i mean..aren\'t we all sick of taking chances on rookies?..well..coaches can be rookies as well...maybe jimmy johnson/..that would be about our only real hope...i think has will be a good coach at some position..whether it is d co..or special teams co...maybe a lb co...but..this just isn\'t working anymore...

11-04-2004, 04:14 PM	#3
turbo_dog 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Atlanta Posts: 1,581	Past, present, and future draft question Lots of teams passed on Deuce, but we picked him. I think Grant has been an impact player, too. As far as your question about whether or not we can find someone better than Haslett... Hell Yes

11-04-2004, 05:17 PM	#4
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Past, present, and future draft question I think you missed the question turbo. Duece did not make an impact in his rookie year, but he was behind Ricky, unless the impact you mean is he allowed us to trade Ricky, then that was a big one. Grant was solid in his rookie year, but no Julius Peppers or Terrell Suggs. I am asking why we never get guys who make impacts in their ROOKIE years. Examples are the players I listed.

11-04-2004, 07:54 PM	#5
RDOX 100th Post Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 264	Past, present, and future draft question I think you missed the question turbo. Duece did not make an impact in his rookie year, but he was behind Ricky, unless the impact you mean is he allowed us to trade Ricky, then that was a big one. Grant was solid in his rookie year, but no Julius Peppers or Terrell Suggs. I am asking why we never get guys who make impacts in their ROOKIE years. Examples are the players I listed. We USED to get impact players as rookies, Dalton Hilliard, George Rogers, Rickey Jackson, Pat Swilling, Morton Anderson Joe Johnson, Jim Dombrowski to name a few. We will NOT get rookies to make an impact on this team until we change who is in charge of the FRONT OFFICE and the COACHING STAFF, because they\'re counting \"cap dollars\" and how to get \"Speed.\" Too bad they can\'t seem to find FOOTBALL PLAYERS!! Until we change the management of this team and put someone with FOOTBALL Sense into the GM spot, we are doomed to repeat the same stupidity year after year. The lunatics are running the asylum.
RDOX 100th Post Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 264

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11-05-2004, 09:28 AM	#6
dberce1 Chuck Liddells Right Hand Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Prairieville, Louisiana Posts: 1,227	Past, present, and future draft question SaintsWhodi, I would highly appreciate it if you would never bring up the fact that we passed on RANDY MOSS ever again. Anyone else, fine, but not Moss. I\'d rather go through natural childbirth than think what we \"coulda\" had.

11-05-2004, 09:56 AM	#7
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,773	Past, present, and future draft question SaintsWhodi, I would highly appreciate it if you would never bring up the fact that we passed on RANDY MOSS ever again. Anyone else, fine, but not Moss. I\'d rather go through natural childbirth than think what we \"coulda\" had. Just one comment. Moss wouldn\'t have worked for the Saints. The lack of leadership and coaching would have simply ruined him. Cris Carter and Denny Green were both essential for his development. He wasn\'t a finished product coming out of Marshall. Maybe once we get a new coaching staff, and hopefully a new front office, in, then we can rethink picking up talented yet unfinished draft picks (see one J. Sullivan for example). But until then our first pick should be the most complete and accomplished senior in a need area that we can locate. I think both Smith and Watson this year are good examples of that. Henderson on the other hand hasn\'t played because his agent wanted $15,000 more on the contract. Can you say stupid?! SFIAH
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.

11-05-2004, 10:30 AM	#8
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Past, present, and future draft question SFIAH, I think you and I have had this Moss discussion before so I won\'t get into it again except to say I still disagree. dberce, Trust me, I feel the pain every Sunday of not having drafted Moss. I apologize for my insensitivity of opening old wounds.

11-05-2004, 10:43 AM	#9
johnnythesaint 100th Post Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 125	Past, present, and future draft question It is just a thought, but the players you mentioned, seem to have one commonality, they joined teams with a clear direction, and more importantly, there seems to have been schematic changes to allow them to flourish. I believe, that the saints since time immemorial have lacked a certain creativity in their broader approach to play-calling. Admittedly, in Mora\'s heyday there was a ferociousness to the Linebackers, but I attribute that to having CHARACTER, something that is rarely drafted with any accuracy by scouts. The transition from successful college days character to professional character seems to be hit or miss for most of the league. Basically, scouts draft for talent, they pay lipservice to character. Just looking at who we\'ve picked up mid-season underlines Haslett\'s quest for character. Hall and Macafee are prime examples of sparkplugs who can have intangible effects on the overall play of the team. Basically, what I\'m saying is that picking prime time players in the draft is little more than a crapshoot, any coach who has been through multiple drafts will attest. You just have to hold your breath on opening day. I started out wanting to criticize the Saints lack of creative schemes, but ultimately wandered into the larger truth for the NFL, maybe next year we\'ll strike gold, who the hell really knows?
johnnythesaint 100th Post Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 125	Flying in from Canada to see the Dolphins game Will it be a Carnival or a Circus?

11-05-2004, 11:48 AM	#10
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Past, present, and future draft question JTS, Don\'t really disagree with your crap shoot theory about the draft except for one thing, the players we are missing on are getting picked AFTER we draft someone. Kevin Williams for the Vikes is another example. We didn\'t take Trufant but we could have taken him if we wanted a DT, the leader in sacks for DTs in the league since last year. We drafted Sullivan. So while the draft is a crap shoot, we seem to be shooting more crap than prizes for the last 5-10 years. Even San Diego\'s drafts are starting to pay off better than ours have, especially with Brees doing so well now. I refuse to believe the Chargers front office can evaluate talent better than ours, but maybe they can. LT, Brees, Eric Parker, Gates, Jammer, Kiel, Olshansky. I would welcome any of those guys on our team.