Now THIS is an interesting mock

Danno · 01-12-2005, 05:29 PM

Missing the point Danno. The discussion was placed as strictly on offense. EVERYONE knows the defensive problems, and we have beat that into the ground too.

If I had to list the topics beat into the ground I do believe defense would be near the bottom.
So no, I don\'t dig.

Danno · 01-12-2005, 05:39 PM

Hey Danno - we have been agreeing a lot lately. Scary.

My point before stands true. After the Tackles AB is THE BIGGEST PROBLEM with the OFFENSE. There are some who suggest that he\'s not a problem at all, or a very minor one. I\'m pretty confident that he is a SIGNIFICANT problem.

There\'s no question that the Saints success next season will depend greatly on what their defense does. It is absolutely the biggest problem, by far. But then, you\'re comparing half the team to one guy. That\'s like saying that the offense not scoring in the first quarter all year was a bigger problem than DT. Sure, but that\'s not a fair comparison.

Based on what I saw from the defense and what I know about the players on defense, this team is fairly talented. Like you said, DT, WLB, SLB... We could use upgrades at SS and CB, but a tougher front 7 helps the secondary. If we could get 3 guys at DT and LB who impact the defense as much as McKenzie seemed to I think the defense will be pretty good. Of course, a coaching change at DC would hepl a lot also, but I\'m talking strictly player personnel here.

On Offense, you look at the tackles, and then you have to look at the QB position. Again, the QB, IMO, is THE MOST IMPORTANT player on the field. I think a big part of the reason that the offense is inconsistent as a unit is b/c their \"leader\" is inconsistent. I\'m not saying Brooks is the REASON, but he does CONTRIBUTE.

Point is, if I had to choose ONE single position to upgrade on this team, to go out and get the best money could buy, QB would be pretty close to the top of my list. That means he may not be THE problem - something a number of people assume is being said any time Brooks is criticized - be he is a SIGNIFICANT problem, that I think needs to be dealt with.

I\'ll agree with that. I\'ve commented this team needs a new identity and replacing AB would help.
I\'m just tired of EVERY discussion about this teams problems devolves into an AB debate, day after day after day after day.

But I do disagree with you slightly, if we had to replace ONE player with a proven A-plus stud, I think the biggest improvement would be attained at DT, then LB, then maybe QB.

But I\'m sick of this crap. I will no longer type AB, or Aaron Brooks for the rest of my existence.

That may seem a bit A_bnormal, but I\'m a_bout fed up!

[Edited on 12/1/2005 by Danno]

Rsanders24 · 01-12-2005, 05:53 PM

Well I guess we may never know what could have happen if the defense was better. If the defense was ranked in the upper half of the league I still think that we would be in the playoffs probably no worse than 11-5 any probably not having these dicusssions of Brooks. But maybe that\'s just wishful thinking. I just don\'t want to see Brooks leave and come back with a better team and beat the stuffing out of us. And if he is truly as \"stupid and arrogant\" as people say that why does everyone see us getting a good player in a trade or a high pick in the draft for him?

saintswhodi · 01-12-2005, 06:04 PM

To answer your question Sanders, teams are enamored with what they perceive as \"talent.\" Look at the Bailey-Portis trade. Who did that work out better for? Portis is a good back, but he ain\'t worth Champ Bailey, and Denver knew that. Anyback in their system is a monster, not just Portis. They took advantage of that. Never mind Portis is a horrible fit for the run first offense Joe Gibbs likes to run. He saw a talented player in Portis and traded awaytheir best defender for him, PLUS a second round pick. There\'s always takers.

And I see your point about the D, but I posed this to someone else. Look at the last 4 games we won. Basically, brooks had two terrible games, one great 4th quarter, and one good all around game. Simulate that to a 5 day work week you get 3 1/2 days of crap, a 1/2 of overachieving, and one full day of just doing the job you should have been doing all aong. So we may have had a better record, but that still doesn\'t take away the fact that Leon would be a problem the majority of the time. He is just WAY too inconsistent.

JKool · 01-12-2005, 06:41 PM

Well, I see that the hornets have been stirred up!

This could take awhile, so one at a time then:

1. Gator, I did not say that we\'re lucky to be 8-8. I just said that if our QB were to have played the same has he did this year with a better OLine and better D, we would have made the playoffs. That is something we did not do last year - thus, the QB has improved (since the defense was better last year and so was the defense - coaching remains roughly the same).

2. BMG, it seems we agree. Once again, the most compelling reason to get rid of Brooks is his cost. Agreed.

3. Whodi, I think we all agree that Brooks is frustrating, inconsistent, and sometimes at fault. I\'m not sure I heard anyone say otherwise. As usual, nice points. However, my point was merely that there is some reason to keep him rather than gamble on another - with an improved OLine and D, with Brooks performance this year, we\'d be in the playoffs. Perhaps that is enought to ask FOR NEXT YEAR, but not forever. This just isn\'t the year for a new QB (barring an awesome FA period).

4. If the rumor that Haz started calling the D at the end of the season is true, then there is not sufficient reason to think that Haz is the reason for poor defensive play. Before we say no improvement in the D because of the coach, take a look at our defensive personel - we lack any linebackers of note, we have one real CB (and only for the second half of the season), and our line is weak in the middle.

5. BMG, we agree on Gandy too.

6. WhoDat, nice post. I\'ll consider.

7. Whodi, nice catch 22. I\'ll consider that too. Still it means we\'re not looking at a QB change next year (barring spectacular FA, as noted above).

8. Danno, apologies for the crickets. I read that and agreed - shoulda said so bud. I\'d posted something similar around that time and got the same response you did.

9. RS, welcome to the board. I\'ve got five bucks we take a DT in the first round as that may be BPA. I\'d love one of the top three linebackers or Rolle, but I don\'t think we\'ll get a shot at \'em. Also, we may draft an OT, but I think we\'d do better in FA getting PROVEN tackles.

10. Whodi, trading up to get Rolle is starting to sound pretty tempting. Keep talking.

11. WhoDat, Danno\'s point was look how far down the list QB is - which was my point too. This thread started by suggesting we may take a QB in the first round. That is nuts - barring an awesome FA period... again.

Whew, that was a long read.

saintswhodi · 01-12-2005, 07:22 PM

Damn Kool, that was a whirlwind. Nice catch up. Damn. :yourock:

JKool · 01-12-2005, 07:29 PM

he hasn\'t gotten any better

I just said that if our QB were to have played the same has he did this year with a better OLine and better D, we would have made the playoffs. That is something we did not do last year - thus, the QB has improved (since the defense was better last year and so was the defense - coaching remains roughly the same).

Of course, this relies on the idea that somehow the goodness of the QB is tied to wins/losses, but I don\'t see that it has been invalidated so far. I\'m not sure what I think about it, but it sounds ok to me. I\'m not sure why you guys keep repeating that Br

ks hasn\'t improved as though it is an undisputed fact.

Whodi, you\'re pretty awesome too. Do you have a job dude? How is it that you have time to reply to everything within such a short period of time?

JKool · 01-12-2005, 07:30 PM

Ape what, JKool?

\"shiznit\", fo shizzle...

[Edited on 13/1/2005 by JKool]

saintswhodi · 01-12-2005, 07:55 PM

Yeah man, it\'s been slow at work lately and the boss hasn\'t been around so I been using up the internet. I was thinking the same thing to myself earlier today, damn self, you respond to everything a lot quicker than most everybody else. lol

mutineer10 · 01-12-2005, 08:53 PM

What makes me so sad about all of these mock drafts, is that the Saints likely won\'t even pick as well as the WORST of them. We have never learned from history (goes for FA too), and we repeat it again and again every offseason...

Oh yeah, almost forgot, Aaron Brooks sucks ...

01-12-2005, 05:29 PM	#41
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,725	Now THIS is an interesting mock Missing the point Danno. The discussion was placed as strictly on offense. EVERYONE knows the defensive problems, and we have beat that into the ground too. If I had to list the topics beat into the ground I do believe defense would be near the bottom. So no, I don\'t dig.

01-12-2005, 05:39 PM	#42
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,725	Now THIS is an interesting mock Hey Danno - we have been agreeing a lot lately. Scary. My point before stands true. After the Tackles AB is THE BIGGEST PROBLEM with the OFFENSE. There are some who suggest that he\'s not a problem at all, or a very minor one. I\'m pretty confident that he is a SIGNIFICANT problem. There\'s no question that the Saints success next season will depend greatly on what their defense does. It is absolutely the biggest problem, by far. But then, you\'re comparing half the team to one guy. That\'s like saying that the offense not scoring in the first quarter all year was a bigger problem than DT. Sure, but that\'s not a fair comparison. Based on what I saw from the defense and what I know about the players on defense, this team is fairly talented. Like you said, DT, WLB, SLB... We could use upgrades at SS and CB, but a tougher front 7 helps the secondary. If we could get 3 guys at DT and LB who impact the defense as much as McKenzie seemed to I think the defense will be pretty good. Of course, a coaching change at DC would hepl a lot also, but I\'m talking strictly player personnel here. On Offense, you look at the tackles, and then you have to look at the QB position. Again, the QB, IMO, is THE MOST IMPORTANT player on the field. I think a big part of the reason that the offense is inconsistent as a unit is b/c their \"leader\" is inconsistent. I\'m not saying Brooks is the REASON, but he does CONTRIBUTE. Point is, if I had to choose ONE single position to upgrade on this team, to go out and get the best money could buy, QB would be pretty close to the top of my list. That means he may not be THE problem - something a number of people assume is being said any time Brooks is criticized - be he is a SIGNIFICANT problem, that I think needs to be dealt with. I\'ll agree with that. I\'ve commented this team needs a new identity and replacing AB would help. I\'m just tired of EVERY discussion about this teams problems devolves into an AB debate, day after day after day after day. But I do disagree with you slightly, if we had to replace ONE player with a proven A-plus stud, I think the biggest improvement would be attained at DT, then LB, then maybe QB. But I\'m sick of this crap. I will no longer type AB, or Aaron Brooks for the rest of my existence. That may seem a bit A_bnormal, but I\'m a_bout fed up! [Edited on 12/1/2005 by Danno]

01-12-2005, 05:53 PM	#43
Rsanders24 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Baton Rouge, LA. Posts: 1,482	Now THIS is an interesting mock Well I guess we may never know what could have happen if the defense was better. If the defense was ranked in the upper half of the league I still think that we would be in the playoffs probably no worse than 11-5 any probably not having these dicusssions of Brooks. But maybe that\'s just wishful thinking. I just don\'t want to see Brooks leave and come back with a better team and beat the stuffing out of us. And if he is truly as \"stupid and arrogant\" as people say that why does everyone see us getting a good player in a trade or a high pick in the draft for him?

01-12-2005, 06:04 PM	#44
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Now THIS is an interesting mock To answer your question Sanders, teams are enamored with what they perceive as \"talent.\" Look at the Bailey-Portis trade. Who did that work out better for? Portis is a good back, but he ain\'t worth Champ Bailey, and Denver knew that. Anyback in their system is a monster, not just Portis. They took advantage of that. Never mind Portis is a horrible fit for the run first offense Joe Gibbs likes to run. He saw a talented player in Portis and traded awaytheir best defender for him, PLUS a second round pick. There\'s always takers. And I see your point about the D, but I posed this to someone else. Look at the last 4 games we won. Basically, brooks had two terrible games, one great 4th quarter, and one good all around game. Simulate that to a 5 day work week you get 3 1/2 days of crap, a 1/2 of overachieving, and one full day of just doing the job you should have been doing all aong. So we may have had a better record, but that still doesn\'t take away the fact that Leon would be a problem the majority of the time. He is just WAY too inconsistent.

01-12-2005, 06:41 PM	#45
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Now THIS is an interesting mock Well, I see that the hornets have been stirred up! This could take awhile, so one at a time then: 1. Gator, I did not say that we\'re lucky to be 8-8. I just said that if our QB were to have played the same has he did this year with a better OLine and better D, we would have made the playoffs. That is something we did not do last year - thus, the QB has improved (since the defense was better last year and so was the defense - coaching remains roughly the same). 2. BMG, it seems we agree. Once again, the most compelling reason to get rid of Brooks is his cost. Agreed. 3. Whodi, I think we all agree that Brooks is frustrating, inconsistent, and sometimes at fault. I\'m not sure I heard anyone say otherwise. As usual, nice points. However, my point was merely that there is some reason to keep him rather than gamble on another - with an improved OLine and D, with Brooks performance this year, we\'d be in the playoffs. Perhaps that is enought to ask FOR NEXT YEAR, but not forever. This just isn\'t the year for a new QB (barring an awesome FA period). 4. If the rumor that Haz started calling the D at the end of the season is true, then there is not sufficient reason to think that Haz is the reason for poor defensive play. Before we say no improvement in the D because of the coach, take a look at our defensive personel - we lack any linebackers of note, we have one real CB (and only for the second half of the season), and our line is weak in the middle. 5. BMG, we agree on Gandy too. 6. WhoDat, nice post. I\'ll consider. 7. Whodi, nice catch 22. I\'ll consider that too. Still it means we\'re not looking at a QB change next year (barring spectacular FA, as noted above). 8. Danno, apologies for the crickets. I read that and agreed - shoulda said so bud. I\'d posted something similar around that time and got the same response you did. 9. RS, welcome to the board. I\'ve got five bucks we take a DT in the first round as that may be BPA. I\'d love one of the top three linebackers or Rolle, but I don\'t think we\'ll get a shot at \'em. Also, we may draft an OT, but I think we\'d do better in FA getting PROVEN tackles. 10. Whodi, trading up to get Rolle is starting to sound pretty tempting. Keep talking. 11. WhoDat, Danno\'s point was look how far down the list QB is - which was my point too. This thread started by suggesting we may take a QB in the first round. That is nuts - barring an awesome FA period... again. Whew, that was a long read.
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

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01-12-2005, 07:22 PM	#46
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Now THIS is an interesting mock Damn Kool, that was a whirlwind. Nice catch up. Damn. :yourock:

01-12-2005, 07:29 PM	#47
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Now THIS is an interesting mock he hasn\'t gotten any better I just said that if our QB were to have played the same has he did this year with a better OLine and better D, we would have made the playoffs. That is something we did not do last year - thus, the QB has improved (since the defense was better last year and so was the defense - coaching remains roughly the same). Of course, this relies on the idea that somehow the goodness of the QB is tied to wins/losses, but I don\'t see that it has been invalidated so far. I\'m not sure what I think about it, but it sounds ok to me. I\'m not sure why you guys keep repeating that Br ks hasn\'t improved as though it is an undisputed fact. Whodi, you\'re pretty awesome too. Do you have a job dude? How is it that you have time to reply to everything within such a short period of time?

01-12-2005, 07:30 PM	#48
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Now THIS is an interesting mock Ape what, JKool? \"shiznit\", fo shizzle... [Edited on 13/1/2005 by JKool]

01-12-2005, 07:55 PM	#49
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Now THIS is an interesting mock Yeah man, it\'s been slow at work lately and the boss hasn\'t been around so I been using up the internet. I was thinking the same thing to myself earlier today, damn self, you respond to everything a lot quicker than most everybody else. lol

01-12-2005, 08:53 PM	#50
mutineer10 Site Donor Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baton Rouge, LA Posts: 1,739	Now THIS is an interesting mock What makes me so sad about all of these mock drafts, is that the Saints likely won\'t even pick as well as the WORST of them. We have never learned from history (goes for FA too), and we repeat it again and again every offseason... Oh yeah, almost forgot, Aaron Brooks sucks ...