What's that? An Aaron Brooks thread?

ScottyRo · 01-29-2005, 10:46 AM

But the \"well, who are we gonna get if we deal Brooks\" crowd ain\'t hearing it. No matter who you mention - especially a journeyman-type (Kitna, Dilfer & Maddox are some usual suspects) - they\'re gonna bash, or simply ignore, it.

I don\'t like being lumped together like that. I\'m against just bringing in any other QB because I see them as a step backwards. But, if you\'re going to state that these guys are lesser QBs and that\'s ok with you cuz you want to put money elsewhere, I can accept that. I\'m not in favor of that idea because you\'re assuming that just because you spend the money on D, then you\'re going to have a better D. See Washington as an example of NOT.

Sadly, Brooks isn\'t really better than most any journeyman we could pick up. He\'s just more expensive. Why not deal him while he\'s still young (and great, according to him) and save a little cash to build elsewhere?

Well, opinions vary as to Ab\'s effectiveness, but then again, I haven\'t seen these guys putting up AB type numbers over the last 4 years. Like I said above, if you\'re willing to take a step backwards at the QB position in order to bulk up on D, that may very well be a good plan. It is risky though. Remember who is still the DC.

saintswhodi · 01-29-2005, 10:57 AM

AB type numbers? They don\'t have AB type talent around them. I\'ll take our receiving corps over any of theirs. I\'ll take Deuce over any of their rbs. I am sure if they had AB\'s offensive team around them, they could put up \"AB type numbers.\" And take better care of the ball. I have yet to see any of those guys with a 20 yard backwards PASS to a lineman. I haven\'t seen any rookie do that yet, not even Carr on his first year with the Texans when he was MAULED for about 72 sacks. So I guess it\'s frustrating when a FIFTH YEAR STARTER makes dumb ass plays rookies DON\"T make. Did Eli do that this year with worse receivers, worse line, and worse RBs? Nope.

ScottyRo · 01-29-2005, 11:23 AM

And take better care of the ball. I have yet to see any of those guys with a 20 yard backwards PASS to a lineman.

Among other reasons, I cringed when he did that cuz I knew it\'d be fodder for the AB haters all offseason. Hey, it was a boneheaded play. Certainly not the first in the NFL and not the last. I\'d give good money to see you being closed in on by 3 or 4 angry, 300+ lb defenders and see someone with your colors, who is supposed to be protecting you, just standing there watching...I\'d throw it at him too. And wouldn\'t you know it...Gandy can\'t catch EITHER. :P

Did Eli do that this year with worse receivers, worse line, and worse RBs?

Maybe. I didn\'t watch all of every Giants game. A worse line? Hardly. They sucked, I\'ll admit, but please tell me you don\'t think our line was the pinnacle of o-line greatness.

A wrose RB? Isn\'t Barber in the Probowl? Deuce is gonna have to buy his own ticket to hawaii this year.

Worse WRs? I don\'t even know who NYG has at WR anymore, but if it\'s still Hilliard and Toomer, I \'d like to see any two of our WRs matched up with their numbers. And considering they were being thrown to by a rookie and Blah Warner all year, if the NYG WRs didn\'t do better you can look there.

saintswhodi · 01-29-2005, 11:53 AM

So Scotty, basically you would take Toomer over Horn and Hilliard over Stallworth? Holy crap. I don\'t think I can even go on. Wow. Wow. I am at a loss for words on that one.

As for their line, do you know the reason Eli started? Cause with the Giants upcoming schedule, they were afraid Warner would get killed cause of the sacks. Sounds like a good O-line to me. Please. Name one player on their line. They are worse than ours, easily. Sorry, can\'t get in line with either of those.

And had Deuce not gotten hurt, he very well could have been in the pro bowl. So are you also saying you would take Barber over Deuce? I sure as hell wouldn\'t. Never, in any scenario. But I shouldn\'t be shocked since you like their receivers better than ours. That is absoulutely shocking, I gotta be honest. Not even on Madden could they be better. Yikes.

mutineer10 · 01-29-2005, 01:01 PM

Worse WRs? I don\'t even know who NYG has at WR anymore, but if it\'s still Hilliard and Toomer, I \'d like to see any two of our WRs matched up with their numbers. And considering they were being thrown to by a rookie and Blah Warner all year, if the NYG WRs didn\'t do better you can look there.

Not an attack, Scotty, but just to illustrate how truly horrible the Giants passing game was this year:

Jeremy Shockey led the team in receiving TD\'s with 6. Tiki Barber was second with 2. Starting WR\'s Amani Toomer and Ike Hilliard combined for 0 TD\'s all season. That\'s right ... none! Don\'t get much worse than that.

The entire Giants team had only 12 receiving TD\'s all season. In contrast, Joe Horn alone had 11 TD\'s. Donte Stallworth had 5. Boo Williams somehow managed 2.

LKelley67 · 01-29-2005, 03:43 PM

whether inclined to say stay or go all will probably agree on erratic. some raw talent counterbalanced by bone headed blundering. my beef isnt how good or bad but the performance for the dollar. he is getting star pay if not premier with only journeyman performance. the closest peer in performance the past five years i found is jay fielder (the all bland version of average). passer ratings: fielder- 66,79,65,91,84 brooks- 85,76,80, 88, 79
just for kicks, culpepper (who fumbles a lot too)on a similar underachieving, erratic, porous defense team- 98,83,75,96,110. with all the failings of the vikes i venture to guess you would not find anywhere near the negative sentiment about him. numbers aside anyone with football acumen can see he is doing his part whether the team was 6-10 or 11-5.

GumboBC · 01-29-2005, 06:46 PM

Having read Scotty\'s posts for a while now, I can tell you he\'s one of the fairest guys I know when it comes to debating ANY topic.

Scotty is far from being an AB worshiper!!

There\'s really NOTHING you can say to some folks about Brooks that\'s going to make any difference. They just hate him. And that\'s all it is too it.

The offensive line was awful. Doesn\'t matter though. Any QB would have done better than Brooks.

Our running game ranked 26th in NFL. But that makes no difference. Any QB could have done better.

We had the WORST defense in the NFL. That makes no difference though. Any QB would have done better.

Let\'s see...

1. Worst defense in the NFL.
2. One of the worst offensive lines in the NFL.
3. 26th ranked running game.

But Brooks was the problem.

Does that add up?

To some it does.

ScottyRo · 01-29-2005, 07:12 PM

OK, their o-line was so bad their they were afraid Warner would get killed so they put in their QB of the future? That makes sense. Like I said, I was pretty sure their o-line was horrible, but that doesn\'t mean ours wasn\'t either. In fact, I know it was. I thought they sucked in the preseason and they continued to suck during the season. How many Giants fans can name one of our o-lineman?

I also said that I didn\'t even know who the Giant\'s WRs were this year and was guessing it was still Hilliard and Toomer. What you\'re telling me is that these two proven veterans now suck even though they had Blah Warner and Rookie Eli trying to throw to them when their o-line sucked as bad as it did. Then I get stats about how low their production was to prove they suck. You can\'t have it both ways. Overall, our WRs probably are better than theirs but that\'s because of Horn. Every other WR on our team has done nothing but flash potential.

Barber had a great year and deserved the probowl, I guess. As has been plainly illustrated the Giants had no o-line and no passing game and he still put up good numbers.

Of course, I wouldn\'t take Toomer for Horn or Barber for Deuce, but that wasn\'t the point of my post and you know that. btw, 2003 stats are probably a more favorable comparison of the WRs:

Horn 973 yards, 10 TDs
Stallworth 485/3

Toomer 1057/5
Hilliard 608/6

Anyway, the point is that AB made some blunders, but all QBs make blunders including Eli and you can\'t excuse Eli\'s just because you think he has a aorse team and not make the same excuse for AB when there are similar problem areas on both teams.

[Edited on 30/1/2005 by ScottyRo]

Joe_Buddens · 01-29-2005, 07:13 PM

Having read Scotty\'s posts for a while now, I can tell you he\'s one of the fairest guys I know when it comes to debating ANY topic.

Scotty is far from being an AB worshiper!!

There\'s really NOTHING you can say to some folks about Brooks that\'s going to make any difference. They just hate him. And that\'s all it is too it.

The offensive line was awful. Doesn\'t matter though. Any QB would have done better than Brooks.

Our running game ranked 26th in NFL. But that makes no difference. Any QB could have done better.

We had the WORST defense in the NFL. That makes no difference though. Any QB would have done better.

Let\'s see...

1. Worst defense in the NFL.
2. One of the worst offensive lines in the NFL.
3. 26th ranked running game.

But Brooks was the problem.

Does that add up?

To some it does.

It adds up to me. And I\'m certain that AB is one of the few QBs in the league that is able to help keep this team atleast at .500 with these types of conditions. I\'m pretty sure that QBs like Manning or Brady would\'ve been on the IR list by week 4 playing behind our OL...

Even if AB did lead the league in red zone turnovers as saintswhodi says, that only means that most of the time, our defense had plenty of room to stop the other team from scoring in those situations and apparently, most of the time they didn\'t...

A lousy OL, defense and running game puts a tremendous amount of pressure on any QB, and I think AB handled it to the best of his abilities.

saintswhodi · 01-29-2005, 08:21 PM

Even if AB did lead the league in red zone turnovers as saintswhodi says, that only means that most of the time, our defense had plenty of room to stop the other team from scoring in those situations and apparently, most of the time they didn\'t

Seriously dude, I have heard some bad AB arguments, but this has got to be one of the worst. You do know a red zone turnover means you put ZERO points on the board right? What if the defense does stop them? They punt, we get the ball, go three and out, and punt it back. Somehow this is the defense\'s fault? Wow, wow, wow.

So Scotty you agree our receivers are better than the Giants. So do I . That was easy. And when you say all QB\'s make mistakes to justify 5 years of crap from AB, then compare him to a ROOKIE making mistakes, I truly see there is no hope for an fair argument here. Between what you and Joe said, I don\'t even know what else can be said. Of course Gumbo would call you fair, I don;t see how you can honestly compare a ROOKIE making mistakes to a FIVE YEAR STARTER and see that as even. And then you say I can\'t excuse Eli cause he has a worse team? A ROOKIE ON A WORSE TEAM? Oh my God. I give up. :casstet:

01-29-2005, 10:46 AM	#21
ScottyRo 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Williamsburg, VA (ugh, the food here) Posts: 1,704	What's that? An Aaron Brooks thread? But the \"well, who are we gonna get if we deal Brooks\" crowd ain\'t hearing it. No matter who you mention - especially a journeyman-type (Kitna, Dilfer & Maddox are some usual suspects) - they\'re gonna bash, or simply ignore, it. I don\'t like being lumped together like that. I\'m against just bringing in any other QB because I see them as a step backwards. But, if you\'re going to state that these guys are lesser QBs and that\'s ok with you cuz you want to put money elsewhere, I can accept that. I\'m not in favor of that idea because you\'re assuming that just because you spend the money on D, then you\'re going to have a better D. See Washington as an example of NOT. Sadly, Brooks isn\'t really better than most any journeyman we could pick up. He\'s just more expensive. Why not deal him while he\'s still young (and great, according to him) and save a little cash to build elsewhere? Well, opinions vary as to Ab\'s effectiveness, but then again, I haven\'t seen these guys putting up AB type numbers over the last 4 years. Like I said above, if you\'re willing to take a step backwards at the QB position in order to bulk up on D, that may very well be a good plan. It is risky though. Remember who is still the DC.

01-29-2005, 10:57 AM	#22
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	What's that? An Aaron Brooks thread? AB type numbers? They don\'t have AB type talent around them. I\'ll take our receiving corps over any of theirs. I\'ll take Deuce over any of their rbs. I am sure if they had AB\'s offensive team around them, they could put up \"AB type numbers.\" And take better care of the ball. I have yet to see any of those guys with a 20 yard backwards PASS to a lineman. I haven\'t seen any rookie do that yet, not even Carr on his first year with the Texans when he was MAULED for about 72 sacks. So I guess it\'s frustrating when a FIFTH YEAR STARTER makes dumb ass plays rookies DON\"T make. Did Eli do that this year with worse receivers, worse line, and worse RBs? Nope.

01-29-2005, 11:23 AM	#23
ScottyRo 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Williamsburg, VA (ugh, the food here) Posts: 1,704	What's that? An Aaron Brooks thread? And take better care of the ball. I have yet to see any of those guys with a 20 yard backwards PASS to a lineman. Among other reasons, I cringed when he did that cuz I knew it\'d be fodder for the AB haters all offseason. Hey, it was a boneheaded play. Certainly not the first in the NFL and not the last. I\'d give good money to see you being closed in on by 3 or 4 angry, 300+ lb defenders and see someone with your colors, who is supposed to be protecting you, just standing there watching...I\'d throw it at him too. And wouldn\'t you know it...Gandy can\'t catch EITHER. :P Did Eli do that this year with worse receivers, worse line, and worse RBs? Maybe. I didn\'t watch all of every Giants game. A worse line? Hardly. They sucked, I\'ll admit, but please tell me you don\'t think our line was the pinnacle of o-line greatness. A wrose RB? Isn\'t Barber in the Probowl? Deuce is gonna have to buy his own ticket to hawaii this year. Worse WRs? I don\'t even know who NYG has at WR anymore, but if it\'s still Hilliard and Toomer, I \'d like to see any two of our WRs matched up with their numbers. And considering they were being thrown to by a rookie and Blah Warner all year, if the NYG WRs didn\'t do better you can look there.

01-29-2005, 11:53 AM	#24
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	What's that? An Aaron Brooks thread? So Scotty, basically you would take Toomer over Horn and Hilliard over Stallworth? Holy crap. I don\'t think I can even go on. Wow. Wow. I am at a loss for words on that one. As for their line, do you know the reason Eli started? Cause with the Giants upcoming schedule, they were afraid Warner would get killed cause of the sacks. Sounds like a good O-line to me. Please. Name one player on their line. They are worse than ours, easily. Sorry, can\'t get in line with either of those. And had Deuce not gotten hurt, he very well could have been in the pro bowl. So are you also saying you would take Barber over Deuce? I sure as hell wouldn\'t. Never, in any scenario. But I shouldn\'t be shocked since you like their receivers better than ours. That is absoulutely shocking, I gotta be honest. Not even on Madden could they be better. Yikes.

01-29-2005, 01:01 PM	#25
mutineer10 Site Donor Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baton Rouge, LA Posts: 1,739	What's that? An Aaron Brooks thread? Worse WRs? I don\'t even know who NYG has at WR anymore, but if it\'s still Hilliard and Toomer, I \'d like to see any two of our WRs matched up with their numbers. And considering they were being thrown to by a rookie and Blah Warner all year, if the NYG WRs didn\'t do better you can look there. Not an attack, Scotty, but just to illustrate how truly horrible the Giants passing game was this year: Jeremy Shockey led the team in receiving TD\'s with 6. Tiki Barber was second with 2. Starting WR\'s Amani Toomer and Ike Hilliard combined for 0 TD\'s all season. That\'s right ... none! Don\'t get much worse than that. The entire Giants team had only 12 receiving TD\'s all season. In contrast, Joe Horn alone had 11 TD\'s. Donte Stallworth had 5. Boo Williams somehow managed 2.

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01-29-2005, 03:43 PM	#26
LKelley67 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: baton rouge Posts: 2,540	What's that? An Aaron Brooks thread? whether inclined to say stay or go all will probably agree on erratic. some raw talent counterbalanced by bone headed blundering. my beef isnt how good or bad but the performance for the dollar. he is getting star pay if not premier with only journeyman performance. the closest peer in performance the past five years i found is jay fielder (the all bland version of average). passer ratings: fielder- 66,79,65,91,84 brooks- 85,76,80, 88, 79 just for kicks, culpepper (who fumbles a lot too)on a similar underachieving, erratic, porous defense team- 98,83,75,96,110. with all the failings of the vikes i venture to guess you would not find anywhere near the negative sentiment about him. numbers aside anyone with football acumen can see he is doing his part whether the team was 6-10 or 11-5.

01-29-2005, 06:46 PM	#27
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	What's that? An Aaron Brooks thread? Having read Scotty\'s posts for a while now, I can tell you he\'s one of the fairest guys I know when it comes to debating ANY topic. Scotty is far from being an AB worshiper!! There\'s really NOTHING you can say to some folks about Brooks that\'s going to make any difference. They just hate him. And that\'s all it is too it. The offensive line was awful. Doesn\'t matter though. Any QB would have done better than Brooks. Our running game ranked 26th in NFL. But that makes no difference. Any QB could have done better. We had the WORST defense in the NFL. That makes no difference though. Any QB would have done better. Let\'s see... 1. Worst defense in the NFL. 2. One of the worst offensive lines in the NFL. 3. 26th ranked running game. But Brooks was the problem. Does that add up? To some it does.
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

01-29-2005, 07:12 PM	#28
ScottyRo 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Williamsburg, VA (ugh, the food here) Posts: 1,704	What's that? An Aaron Brooks thread? OK, their o-line was so bad their they were afraid Warner would get killed so they put in their QB of the future? That makes sense. Like I said, I was pretty sure their o-line was horrible, but that doesn\'t mean ours wasn\'t either. In fact, I know it was. I thought they sucked in the preseason and they continued to suck during the season. How many Giants fans can name one of our o-lineman? I also said that I didn\'t even know who the Giant\'s WRs were this year and was guessing it was still Hilliard and Toomer. What you\'re telling me is that these two proven veterans now suck even though they had Blah Warner and Rookie Eli trying to throw to them when their o-line sucked as bad as it did. Then I get stats about how low their production was to prove they suck. You can\'t have it both ways. Overall, our WRs probably are better than theirs but that\'s because of Horn. Every other WR on our team has done nothing but flash potential. Barber had a great year and deserved the probowl, I guess. As has been plainly illustrated the Giants had no o-line and no passing game and he still put up good numbers. Of course, I wouldn\'t take Toomer for Horn or Barber for Deuce, but that wasn\'t the point of my post and you know that. btw, 2003 stats are probably a more favorable comparison of the WRs: Horn 973 yards, 10 TDs Stallworth 485/3 Toomer 1057/5 Hilliard 608/6 Anyway, the point is that AB made some blunders, but all QBs make blunders including Eli and you can\'t excuse Eli\'s just because you think he has a aorse team and not make the same excuse for AB when there are similar problem areas on both teams. [Edited on 30/1/2005 by ScottyRo]

01-29-2005, 07:13 PM	#29
Joe_Buddens Rookie Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 16	What's that? An Aaron Brooks thread? Having read Scotty\'s posts for a while now, I can tell you he\'s one of the fairest guys I know when it comes to debating ANY topic. Scotty is far from being an AB worshiper!! There\'s really NOTHING you can say to some folks about Brooks that\'s going to make any difference. They just hate him. And that\'s all it is too it. The offensive line was awful. Doesn\'t matter though. Any QB would have done better than Brooks. Our running game ranked 26th in NFL. But that makes no difference. Any QB could have done better. We had the WORST defense in the NFL. That makes no difference though. Any QB would have done better. Let\'s see... 1. Worst defense in the NFL. 2. One of the worst offensive lines in the NFL. 3. 26th ranked running game. But Brooks was the problem. Does that add up? To some it does. It adds up to me. And I\'m certain that AB is one of the few QBs in the league that is able to help keep this team atleast at .500 with these types of conditions. I\'m pretty sure that QBs like Manning or Brady would\'ve been on the IR list by week 4 playing behind our OL... Even if AB did lead the league in red zone turnovers as saintswhodi says, that only means that most of the time, our defense had plenty of room to stop the other team from scoring in those situations and apparently, most of the time they didn\'t... A lousy OL, defense and running game puts a tremendous amount of pressure on any QB, and I think AB handled it to the best of his abilities.
Joe_Buddens Rookie Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 16

01-29-2005, 08:21 PM	#30
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	What's that? An Aaron Brooks thread? Even if AB did lead the league in red zone turnovers as saintswhodi says, that only means that most of the time, our defense had plenty of room to stop the other team from scoring in those situations and apparently, most of the time they didn\'t Seriously dude, I have heard some bad AB arguments, but this has got to be one of the worst. You do know a red zone turnover means you put ZERO points on the board right? What if the defense does stop them? They punt, we get the ball, go three and out, and punt it back. Somehow this is the defense\'s fault? Wow, wow, wow. So Scotty you agree our receivers are better than the Giants. So do I . That was easy. And when you say all QB\'s make mistakes to justify 5 years of crap from AB, then compare him to a ROOKIE making mistakes, I truly see there is no hope for an fair argument here. Between what you and Joe said, I don\'t even know what else can be said. Of course Gumbo would call you fair, I don;t see how you can honestly compare a ROOKIE making mistakes to a FIVE YEAR STARTER and see that as even. And then you say I can\'t excuse Eli cause he has a worse team? A ROOKIE ON A WORSE TEAM? Oh my God. I give up. :casstet: