saintswhodi

Hasselbeck ACTUALLY DOES suffer from a preposterous amount of drops from his receivers, unlike the perceived amount for AB. He would be an instant and immediate upgrade.

Kool, the difference between AB, Deuce and Horn is Horn and Deuce have proven it on the field. Outside of this year, with the injuries and such, not may considered Deuce a fumbler. And Joe Horn is on top of the respect train. Know how much he made this past season? $600,000. He tool a cap friendly year for the team. Now, do you see AB EVER doing that? Ever? Never in a million years. Deuce has been playing off his rookie contract and been putting up pro bowl numbers, again except for this injury plagued year. If Clinton Portis deserves a raise, he sure in the hell does. AB on the other hand makes a buttload of money, with not much to show for it. Stats are great, but so are leaders, team players, and humble guys who perform for less. That\'s what I wanna see.

Now what you said Kool about trading Deuce is very interesting except, his salary is still cap friendly. Drafting a RB high will increase that number. AB on the other hand has a high salary relative to production. Better to trade him.

And also I don\'t like the \"enamored with Roeth\" equation. I believe Ben just showed what a qb in the right situation could do as a rookie. MOST times a team drafts high enough to get an elite qb in the draft, their team sucks and one qb won;t fix that. I also don\'t like the Bengals example cause although there were many misses, Carson Palmer is a hit. I would trade AB for him right now. Pittsburgh had NUMEROUS INJURIES last year that hurt their team. They were healthy and Ben stepped in, formula for success. I feel with some parts, we have that here. I don\'t see a rookie struggling here as much cause we aren\'t and haven\'t been a 4-12 team, like the Giants were just last year and got Eli. So I really don\'t like that example. Not many rookie QBs are put into situations ready made for success. Again, Peyton was 3-13 his first year cause of a terrible team. Where are they now?

Saint_LB

JK, if you go back and read my post, you will see that I said that J.T. might have what it takes. To be honest, I didn\'t get to see him much this year in pre-season, so I am basing most of my speculation on what I saw two pre-seasons ago, and what I read about him while he was playing in Europe. You say he was playing against third-stringers, which meant he was also playing with third-stringers. You see, that has really been the whole problem, and why the others slipped through our fingers. It seems that the whole time that AB has been here, he has been the only one that we have been able to see with the first-string guys. Getting back to J.T., though. What I saw was a firey competitor that just seemed to have the knack for getting the job done...a little bit like what you see in Jake. I know a lot of you don\'t put much stock in attitude, but I for one think lthat leadership is way underrated. An example would be Joe Montana. Can you imagine what his coaches must have thought the first time they saw him. He\'s not very fast, not very big, didn\'t have a big arm, certainly didn\'t look like a QB. He really looked more like, well, I don\'t know what they call them, but a guy that is into ballet. All he did, it seemed, was get six yards when you needed five, and on a very, very consistent basis. He seemed to do this exceptionally well when playing the Saints, too...lol. Don\'t get me wrong...I am not saying that J.T. is going to be the next Joe Montana, I am just saying that you never know until the guy gets in their with the first group and has his shot at it...ala Tom Brady. Did anyone see that one coming before Bledsoe went down. The problem is that is as long as Haz and AB have anything to say about it, we are never going to get a look-see at anyone else. It almost seems that they went out and got a guy like Boumann so they could say, \"OK, this is your back-up. We know you don\'t want him in there, so just shut-up about replacing the QB, OK.\" J.T. may make it, he may not. One thing is for certain and that is if he does, he will not be wearing a Saint uniform, and to me that is sad.

[Edited on 31/1/2005 by Saint_LB]

Whether you think you can or think you can't...you're right!

JKool

Nice work guys.

Several things:
(1) Duece\'s salary is cap friendly, but if we don\'t get him a new contract this offseason, he will be next year\'s Darrin Howard. Thus, he will be wanting a contract that will effect our cap. That was my point. I really haven\'t thought much about it, but trading Duece may be a good option.

(2) As far as Duece proving it on the field, I don\'t know if I buy that. He\'s been hurt regularly, developed an issue with fumbling (including in bad places), and he had a strictly unimpressive year this year. That makes him a bit inconsistent, I think. Of course, that inconsistency thing isn\'t as big an issue to me as it appears to be to others. Either way, I\'m just saying think about it.

(3) A recent article has noted that Horn feels that his salary for next year is a bit of a joke - something about signing bonuses for lesser WRs being more than his salary next year. I do think he gets props for not holding out for a better contract THIS LAST season, but I\'m not ready to say that he won\'t be a contract problem in the coming months. I agree that he\'s proven himself, but he keeps renegotiating his contracts after he signs them; there is something about that that sinks. I love Joe, don\'t get me wrong, and I think THIS PAST season he\'s been nothing but a team guy, but that hasn\'t always been the case. I\'m going to suspend judgement on this one a few months to see what happens with his contract.

(4) If you agree that there have been many misses in Cincy, then you have admited my point. For every Carson Palmer, there is an Akili Smith and a Kilmer (I don\'t remember his first name even, David maybe?). I just don\'t see why people are so certain the risk will payoff in the way that will help us.

(5) If you don\'t like my examples, that\'s fine. They were just examples of a rule that most will agree holds in the NFL - QBs, like WRs, take two to four years to really come into their own. This is why many of the good QBs have spent time in the CFL, NFLE, Arena Football and so on - they just weren\'t ready right away.

(6) I think we\'re agreeing on the Roethlisberger (though I don\'t think everyone sees it as clearly as you do/did). My point was that for every rookie success there is MUCH more to the story than just being highly touted out of college. I am of the view that VERY few rookie QBs can get the job done in their first few years - Ben is an exception, and you seem to agree.

(7) This team is NOT in a position for success with a game manager QB. We need to fix an OLine that was carp (smile) this year! We also have a terrible defense (nearly the worst in NFL history). These are not a recipe for success. I may change my view on the risks we should take at the QB position IF we improve the OLine and the Defense dramatically, but until then I don\'t see taking a risk on a QB. Our QB, if nothing else, is able to take a serious beating AND he CAN run away from the pass rush (unlike most \"game manager\" type QBs). Why bring in a guy who may get his clock cleaned over and over again?

"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

JKool

LB,

I did read your post; I\'m sorry if you felt mis-heard, I could have been clearer. I was merely wondering if you had some insight into this stuff about JT, since people keep mentioning him.

I\'ve heard this conspiracy theory about protecting Brooks from competition many times, and I don\'t know what I think about it. I\'m still not buying it I guess, but lots of smart people have made some cases for it.

If this is true:
Then I don\'t see why we should have a feeling one way or the other about JT. He did not have this shot so we don\'t know one way or the other. It doesn\'t make sense to say that you can\'t know (since he never had a really opportunity to show his stuff) but that you think he would have turned out well (which is not exactly what you said, but I think you\'ll take my point).

Montana is an odd example for a leader. He certainly did lead by example, but he was never really an up in your face guy vocal kind of guy. He just did his job and did it IMPOSSIBLY WELL. I\'ll ponder this.

IMO, from what I saw of JT, I saw a guy excited to have a chance at the NFL who threw the ball relatively poorly and had some happy feet. Sure he had more passion than AB, but wouldn\'t you expect that from a guy trying to win a job? I don\'t know. I\'ll take your word for what you saw, but I\'m just not feeling this whole JT thing. Honestly though, thanks for you thoughts, I will continue investigating the JT thing.

If he does well in GB, I won\'t think we made a poor decision. As you note, we had very little good information about him, and we got McKenzie in the deal - who was a proven commodity and has helped us. Even if JT is their starter next year, I think that was a fine move on our part.

[Edited on 31/1/2005 by JKool]

"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

BrooksMustGo

JKool--let me direct your attention to my response on FireVenturi\'s \"My !st four rounds\" thread.

I basically agree that at least 1 of the 3 amigos won\'t be with us next year. I would expect it to be Horn given his run-ins with Haz, but Deuce is easily the most replaceable of the 3 right now.

The only drawback I see to dealing Horn is age. I\'m not sure that Joe has as much trade value given his age and his recent history of playing through injury. I could see maybe Denver being interested in him, but I don\'t see Denver being 1st round interested in him. I hate to say it but signing Joe is a huge risk for anyone. I don\'t question his will, but his body might just fail him. Great player, but too great a risk of minimal return. Even though, now that I think about it--I could see Philly being interested if they want to get back to superbowl next year. Either way, Joe would need to get used to being a 2nd or 3rd WR.

Deuce is even more problematic. With 3-4 guys who could go in the first round and contribute as the feature back from day 1 (for FAR less money), I\'m not sure what the market for Deuce might be.

Additionally, this is a bad year to try and swing a Ricky Williams type trade. Guys like Travis Henry, Shaun Alexander, Edgerrin James, Correll Buckhalter, Najeh Davenport, Rudi Johnson and LaMont Jordan are all capable of being an every down back and are all some variety of free agent this season. The good news is that Deuce should be more affordable if we try to sign him. The bad news is that I don\'t see enough demand for a feature back to give Deuce great trade value.

I really can\'t see Miami (for instance) trading for Deuce unless Saban is dying to have Aaron Rogers. But even then, I can\'t see a team in the top 10 offering their number 1 pick for a guy that Haslett has been running down as being undisciplined and fat all season. Honestly, why trade for Deuce if you could draft Benson, Williams or Brown?

I\'m not so attached to Deuce that I\'d be opposed to dealing him. Especially if he holds out for crazy amounts of money or isn\'t properly conditioned. The problem is that there are just too many quality RBs available in free agency or the draft this year.

Which brings us back to the current QB. I\'m obviously no fan of his, but at the same time, he\'s the only 1 of the 3 that we can get any sort of value for in a trade. I just don\'t see anyone but our current QB bringing us a good return.


[Edited on 31/1/2005 by BrooksMustGo]

http://www.blackandgold.net/site/signature/buddysig.jpg

JKool

Nice post BMG.

I\'ve now reordered my thinking on this matter. We could keep Duece under his current contract this next season, if he doesn\'t hold out and then resign him the next season. What are your thoughts on that option? Holding out may just hurt his chances of getting a better deal the following year? <Crossing my fingers>

Also, if Duece\'s price will be lowered as a result of the glut of backs, I\'m not sure our worry that we can\'t keep all three is true. Horn will be over priced, but he is one of our few stand out players. AB is already over priced, but IMO we won\'t get a reasonable replacement for him (see above discussion of this before anyone jumps on me). Thus, we may have to spend on the three, an extra OT and LB and hope our draft pans out? My, I\'m starting to think that our Super Bowl window really has closed already... snif. That was a depressing revelation. Quick, someone try and convince me I\'m wrong!

[Edited on 31/1/2005 by JKool]

"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

shadowdrinker

I\'m going to try my best to sum up why Brooks and the rest of the team just don\'t mix...

I have neve rbeen a Brooks advocate, Nor do I call him Leon...

Almost everybody in here can relate to the guy who has worked for the Son of the Boss..or something of the like...

It seems that ..no matter what happens..the blame never falls on the child..even if the actions he took..made the problem...

When Aaron Brooks started his first NFL game for the Saints..He came in like a Fireball..Totally unpredictable..and very exciting for everyone to behold...He managed to help this team to a playoff victory against a very potent foe..and we , as a Team, had never experienced such success...it was almost intoxicating...The Town , no...The State was at an all time high...ESPN was covering every move this kid made..and the townsfolk were quite pleased to have some positive feedback on thier team..and Town...and the , until then,..joke of a Football team called the Saints...

We had players in commercials..we had never really had the kind of luxuries other teams had , as far as publicity in the media went..people knew about us..and they respected us...and it had never really happened before...

Aaron Brooks..like the Boss\'s son..had some weight to throw around..he could pick fights with players..and noone would oppose..He could call his team whatever he wanted..and put them in whatever light he chose..and noone would oppose...

His success here has gained him alot of respect from the Coach..and more Importantly..the Owner...

And much like the Boss\'s son..he will continue to pass the blame..and say what he wants..and act how he wants..no matter the consiquence...

In his world..the Coaches have been paying extra special attention to him..sending him to specialized classes to build his self esteem..and leadership abilities..often..neglecting other equally important players on the very same team...sending him the message..we can\'t win without you, you are the missing link..you are everything..and..like any normal person..he may have started to buy inot this belief..and we are left with what we have now..an average Qb..on an average team...

This problem was created by the Saints themselves...partly the Coach and Owner..for making him believe he is irreplacable..and partly the players..for going along with it...now..it\'s out of hand...he may not be the biggest problem as far as..winning goes..but..He is the biggest problem ..when you ask....Why can\'t this team seem to get it together?...

In the words of Forrest Gump...\'\'That\'s all I have to say about that\'\'

Tobias-Reiper

..to answer the original question:

mas·och·ism

A willingness or tendency to subject oneself to unpleasant or trying experiences.

saintswhodi

Kool, I am gonna flat out disagree with your assessment of Deuce. IF he didn\'t lead the NFC in total yards last year, he was second. And if he didn\'t lead in rushing yards, he was at least second in that as well. You can\'t do that being injury prone and inconsistent. He also had about 1400 yards rushing the year before, his first as the starter. So, as far as your assessment of him in relation to AB, I am gonna have to disagree, like I said, until this year, where an offense he openly complained about in the off-season and injuries doomed him, yet he still got over 1000 yards and more TDS than last year behind an O-line almost everyone on here calls garbage. My value for Deuce is WAY WAY above AB.

And you could very well be right about his FUTURE contract, but right now he is cap friendly for his production. AB is not. It is totally lop-sided. I think what backs like Shaun Alexander and Rudi Johnosn get will determine Deuce\'s value, and it won;t be like what we saw for Tomlinson and Portis, especially with the flood of new backs coming in through the draft. I think we will be okay there.

Joe, man, I love Joe, but trading him to Philly or such or Denver like BMG suggested is not a terrible idea, but his age is, cause it will bring down value. We have to re-sign Joe to a contract he can retire here with.

So IMHO, AB is the only one valuable enough who has such a disparity between performane on the field and salary. Add to that his crap attitude, ego, and apparent poor work ethic, the time is right to unload him. I am not sure we can\'t get by with a game manager here, and his contract off the books. That allows us to put money into different positions of need, and allows us to take a young guy who can sit for a year. I felt this was the year for us to tank it and get high in the draft because liek you, with all the moves that need to be made, we may be losing our window, or it may have passed. That\'s the truly scary thought. And if it has, nothing wrong with starting a rookie.

Like I said, rookie QBs are generally drafted to crap teams. Ben was in the right spot. Look at Carr. He started for an expansion team, got his head relentlessly beat in, and now his team is on the verge of the playoffs. We don;t have expansion team talent here. A few moves, and we are in the thivk of it and I feel a rookie CAN be successful here, or anywhere else in the league IN THE RIGHT SITUATION. Again, all the guys you named for Bengals were drafted by POOR BENGALS ORGANIZATIONS, before MArvin Lewis and before any committment to winning. No lie, I read their scout team was treated the shabbiest of any in the league, and they generally did a poor job. Marvin Lwewis changes that, bam Carson Palmer. So the team and org around a rookie can affect him more than anything else. I can\'t think of any examples where a rookie qb was drafted high to a good org and DIDN\"T have success. McNabb is another example. HE had success almost immediately for the Eagles. On the other hand, QBs drafted by poor orgs have more road to hoe to make a dent. If you have examples to the contrary, where a qb rated high in the draft was taken by a good team and did not have success, I am willing to listen. I don\'t see where I have admitted your point though. Sorry.

JKool

Whodi,

(0) I like the way you phrase things Whodi, you have a nice knack for making the people you disagree with sound like they\'ve said something totally moronic. What I said with respect to Duece was this:Then I went on to suggest some reasons not to buy it. Thus, I\'m not sure why you think you are \"flat out disagreeing with my assessment of Duece\", since I didn\'t provide an assessment. I provided some points, and I was waiting to hear what other people had to say.

(1) Whether or not Duece is inconsistent depends on what you are looking at. I hadn\'t thought of this before, but it is an interesting point. A guy with two good years and one bad one, who develops a fumbling problem and a weight problem may be judged as inconsistent - year to year. However, I agree that judgement is probably a bit off. I already agreed with BMG that trading Duece is probably not a great option - but it is an option nonetheless. Furthermore, at the outset of this season it was already in open discussion that Duece would be up for a contract negotiation. Sure, he\'s still under contract, but are we going to pay our only real back rookie money? That doesn\'t seem right. He\'ll be renegotiating and getting paid money that WILL hurt our cap position.

(2) I actually don\'t think that we need to get rid of any of the three, though BMG makes a fine point on this. Horn will want to be here, and he won\'t get a better deal elsewhere. He\'ll sign for less than he wants. If Duece is smart, he\'ll wait until next year when there isn\'t a glut of good RBs; this way they\'ll have to pay him more. We\'re already in pretty good cap position even with Brooks\' contract. We should be able to sign 2-3 pricey FAs and our rookies (at least last I heard).

(3)

- (a) The Bengals being a poor orginization is irrelevant. They drafted guys that most teams thought would be good. Both Smith and Kilmer were highly rated QBs. It isn\'t like the Bengals were reaching. Those guys just didn\'t pan out, just like over 50% of fist round picks.
- (b) Again, our defense sucks, our OLine stinks, we have one really good WR, and a back who is overweight, injured, and has a case of the fumbles. Are we really that much better than all these other teams?
- (c) Also, I\'m not making this up, there are few guys who can come right in and play at the QB spot. Maybe one or two per draft class. Most guys need to learn systems much more complicated than their college system, get used to NFL speed, get used to leading older more experienced guys. It takes a few years to get a real feel for it in most cases. Again, that is why so many starting QBs in the NFL did NOT start as rookies - it is not merely because there is another guy there, it is because they have to LEARN to play NFL ball and the learning curve for a QB is NOT the same as it is for a RB or DLinemen.
- (d) I don\'t think this but if you DO think that poor orginizations draft poor players (as in the Bengals case) how in the world could you believe that we would draft a good QB? Do you think we have a good orginization? IMO our Front Office is actually the biggest embarassment as far as this season went. Wow, we do a great job of assessing talent and paying the right amount for it - Stinchcomb, Sullivan, Ruff, Jones, Henderson, and the list goes on.

(4) I never said that a rookie couldn\'t succeed here. I said that without certain changes he will not succeed here. For a rookie, other than a real special rookie, to succeed here we would need a MAJOR improvement in our OLine and we would need a defense. Both McNabb\'s and Roethlisberger\'s teams had solid defenses - we do not. Having a good defense is critical to having a \"game manager\" QB.

(5) Jim Druckenmiller is perhaps an example of what you are getting at - he was drafted in the first round by the 49ers in 97, they still had a pretty good squad then.

Either way, the question was a bit odd on both our parts: a really good QB will be drafted high up in the first round (unless we\'re willing to widen the scope of our definition of \"projected to do well\") - good teams don\'t get to pick then, so it may be IMPOSSIBLE for me to give you the counter example you are asking for. Thus, before I can answer your excellent challenge, we have to decide what we mean by a \"QB who should succeed\" and a \"good orginization\".

(6) McNabb\'s QB rating in his rookie season was 60. He threw 8 TDs and 7 picks that year. That is not a success. His second season his QB rating was 77.8 (that isn\'t too bad for a sophomore) but worse than Aaron\'s rating for this year (which we both know you think is sh-t for a QB rating). I\'d have to say that McNabb did not have \"success\" right away. Maybe McNabb is an example that will satisfy you?

[Edited on 31/1/2005 by JKool]

"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks