Why in the world am I doing this?!

BrooksMustGo · 01-30-2005, 03:33 PM

JKool, As always, it is refreshing to discuss things with you. I\'ve never been caviled before though?

3b - I think you should add that how bad the mistakes are matters. There are few starting NFL QBs who are merely managers of the game that people can get excited about. Thus, I think you could make this point more strongly, and I also think it could be a weakness of your argument (but we\'d have to investigate it more thoroughly).

I agree entirely on the timing of the mistakes. Our current QB tends to make them as such awful times that they are underscored in the minds of people watching. I would also agree that what I\'m arguing for is basically to have a game manager for the coming season. However, like you and everyone else, I\'d rather have an Elway than a Dilfer for the long term.

I also agree that more investigation would clear this up. As a fan, I tend to get really nervous when our current QB is inside the 20\'s--backed up or in the redzone. I expect bad things to happen. Between the 20\'s I\'m never worried. I\'m not sure if I\'ve been trained to this or just notice it more, but that\'s basically my take on the current QB.

3c - This is not only AB\'s fault. Coaching has not helped him here. While I agree that this may be symptomatic of his \"dumbness\", it may also be due to coddling and/or poor coaching. I feel it is difficult to say how much of this is really on AB himself.

Agreed. Halo has said on several occasions that he felt the organization has ruined the current QB during his development. I think it\'s certainly possible. The trouble is, I\'m not sure it\'s fixable. He seems to think he\'s elite and the coaching staff hasn\'t ever really held him accountable. So I\'m not sure that we\'re ever going to see marked improvement from him in NO. I wouldn\'t be surprised if he went somewhere else and did quite well though.

3f - There are two intangibles that Brooks does have (though, I agree that for the most you are right on this point): (1) he is actually pretty darn tough - he takes a lickin\' and keeps on tickin\', and (2) he is a threat to gamble. I honestly believe this is a coaching (game planning) error.

I agree that he is tough and seems to do a good job of staying in good condition. I also agree that he is better on bootlegs where he is dangerous to run.

However, I\'d qualify that a bit. I don\'t think he\'s nearly as dangerous as McNabb, Culpepper or Vick. This could be a game planning problem. Maybe McCarthy emphasized that he shouldn\'t run at all, but throw the ball away? Even the scramblers settle down into the pocket as their career goes on, so I\'m not sure we\'re going to see as much freelancing from him regardless?

The one key difference I\'ll note from the last couple of seasons is that he tends to go backwards. When he used to roll out, he stayed close enough to the LOS that he was a threat to run. Now with 10 step drops, he ends up so far back that he takes his running out of the equation--a good run will just get him back to the line. Maybe this can be fixed, I don\'t know, but I\'m relatively sure that he\'s not going to have as good a rushing performance as when he was younger.

4c - I take your point here, but I feel like people can\'t have it both ways. A really good leader, which Brooks is not, would do both. This point needs to be clarified, since it appears that many have contradicted themselves here - I feel like this may be two or three separate points. I hope you can see what I\'m getting at here, since a greater diagnosis might be possible.

Here\'s the BMG spin on the subject. I think the current QB is weak on people skills. I would compare it to this: imagine Cheers. Our current QB is more like Lilith, I\'d rather have a guy like Norm.

All I\'ve read suggests that our current QB is kind of a recluse, he comes in and does his job and then leaves. I\'d rather have a QB that the other guys respect and trust. I\'d rather have a guy kind of like Roethlisberger who comes in and shakes everyone\'s hand, values what they do and conveys in word and action that nothing good happens without their contribution.

This overlaps another area, but it seems like our current QB conveys that he\'s in it for himself and tolerates the guys around him.

It is still my view that while 1&2 (and I very much enjoyed 4e) are good points, they are only really going to be convincing when a good alternative to AB is presented.

I understand the risk aversion part. (Spend WAY too much time around lawyers). This is really where it gets sticky and where I can\'t really offer a lot of suggestions. Our current guy is, after all, the devil we know.

I think, for example, that Mike McMahon from Detroit could be very good if given the chance. I also think we could get him for less than 1/4 of what we\'re paying this season. So strictly from a cap standpoint, I think it\'s a good idea. I also figure from a cap standpoint that if we paid McMahon around 1/2 million a year we\'d be in far better financial shape to shore up the defense and LT and have a coachable QB.

However, here\'s a fun hypothetical for you. Let\'s say that McCarthy gets Nolan and the 49ers to drink the Cool-Aid and they are willing to part with the #1 overall for Brooks. Would you be willing to accept such a trade to get Aaron Rogers or Alex Smith? Or would you be willing to deal our current QB and try to pick up Rivers from the Chargers? I\'m curious as to who it would take to get the more risk averse fans to sign off on the trade?

And my last hypothetical for the risk averse. Deciding to keep the current guy brings up 2 questions for me.
1. Are we going to be able to draft or free agency the players we need to make a superbowl run with his number against the cap?
2. Are we going to be able to make this superbowl run while our WR corps is still playing at a high level? It seems to me that the decision not to deal the current QB brings up all kinds of problems with Horn. For example, if we decide not to pay Horn his 4.5 million this year and cut him where are we at then? Or if we can re-sign Joe to a cap friendly deal, how long is he going to play at such a high level?

I want a QB who wins games, not one of those \"manager\" types; I just don\'t think our running game (mostly due to the Oline) or defense is strong enough to have that kind of QB.

I agree, long term it\'s better to have Elway than Dilfer. I\'m wondering whether our current guy could be our Herschel Walker? I think that his trade value is such that he could buy us 2-3 players that could go a long way towards fixing the defense and OT problems we are facing.

01-30-2005, 03:33 PM	#11
BrooksMustGo 1000 Posts + Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,762	Why in the world am I doing this?! JKool, As always, it is refreshing to discuss things with you. I\'ve never been caviled before though? 3b - I think you should add that how bad the mistakes are matters. There are few starting NFL QBs who are merely managers of the game that people can get excited about. Thus, I think you could make this point more strongly, and I also think it could be a weakness of your argument (but we\'d have to investigate it more thoroughly). I agree entirely on the timing of the mistakes. Our current QB tends to make them as such awful times that they are underscored in the minds of people watching. I would also agree that what I\'m arguing for is basically to have a game manager for the coming season. However, like you and everyone else, I\'d rather have an Elway than a Dilfer for the long term. I also agree that more investigation would clear this up. As a fan, I tend to get really nervous when our current QB is inside the 20\'s--backed up or in the redzone. I expect bad things to happen. Between the 20\'s I\'m never worried. I\'m not sure if I\'ve been trained to this or just notice it more, but that\'s basically my take on the current QB. 3c - This is not only AB\'s fault. Coaching has not helped him here. While I agree that this may be symptomatic of his \"dumbness\", it may also be due to coddling and/or poor coaching. I feel it is difficult to say how much of this is really on AB himself. Agreed. Halo has said on several occasions that he felt the organization has ruined the current QB during his development. I think it\'s certainly possible. The trouble is, I\'m not sure it\'s fixable. He seems to think he\'s elite and the coaching staff hasn\'t ever really held him accountable. So I\'m not sure that we\'re ever going to see marked improvement from him in NO. I wouldn\'t be surprised if he went somewhere else and did quite well though. 3f - There are two intangibles that Brooks does have (though, I agree that for the most you are right on this point): (1) he is actually pretty darn tough - he takes a lickin\' and keeps on tickin\', and (2) he is a threat to gamble. I honestly believe this is a coaching (game planning) error. I agree that he is tough and seems to do a good job of staying in good condition. I also agree that he is better on bootlegs where he is dangerous to run. However, I\'d qualify that a bit. I don\'t think he\'s nearly as dangerous as McNabb, Culpepper or Vick. This could be a game planning problem. Maybe McCarthy emphasized that he shouldn\'t run at all, but throw the ball away? Even the scramblers settle down into the pocket as their career goes on, so I\'m not sure we\'re going to see as much freelancing from him regardless? The one key difference I\'ll note from the last couple of seasons is that he tends to go backwards. When he used to roll out, he stayed close enough to the LOS that he was a threat to run. Now with 10 step drops, he ends up so far back that he takes his running out of the equation--a good run will just get him back to the line. Maybe this can be fixed, I don\'t know, but I\'m relatively sure that he\'s not going to have as good a rushing performance as when he was younger. 4c - I take your point here, but I feel like people can\'t have it both ways. A really good leader, which Brooks is not, would do both. This point needs to be clarified, since it appears that many have contradicted themselves here - I feel like this may be two or three separate points. I hope you can see what I\'m getting at here, since a greater diagnosis might be possible. Here\'s the BMG spin on the subject. I think the current QB is weak on people skills. I would compare it to this: imagine Cheers. Our current QB is more like Lilith, I\'d rather have a guy like Norm. All I\'ve read suggests that our current QB is kind of a recluse, he comes in and does his job and then leaves. I\'d rather have a QB that the other guys respect and trust. I\'d rather have a guy kind of like Roethlisberger who comes in and shakes everyone\'s hand, values what they do and conveys in word and action that nothing good happens without their contribution. This overlaps another area, but it seems like our current QB conveys that he\'s in it for himself and tolerates the guys around him. It is still my view that while 1&2 (and I very much enjoyed 4e) are good points, they are only really going to be convincing when a good alternative to AB is presented. I understand the risk aversion part. (Spend WAY too much time around lawyers). This is really where it gets sticky and where I can\'t really offer a lot of suggestions. Our current guy is, after all, the devil we know. I think, for example, that Mike McMahon from Detroit could be very good if given the chance. I also think we could get him for less than 1/4 of what we\'re paying this season. So strictly from a cap standpoint, I think it\'s a good idea. I also figure from a cap standpoint that if we paid McMahon around 1/2 million a year we\'d be in far better financial shape to shore up the defense and LT and have a coachable QB. However, here\'s a fun hypothetical for you. Let\'s say that McCarthy gets Nolan and the 49ers to drink the Cool-Aid and they are willing to part with the #1 overall for Brooks. Would you be willing to accept such a trade to get Aaron Rogers or Alex Smith? Or would you be willing to deal our current QB and try to pick up Rivers from the Chargers? I\'m curious as to who it would take to get the more risk averse fans to sign off on the trade? And my last hypothetical for the risk averse. Deciding to keep the current guy brings up 2 questions for me. 1. Are we going to be able to draft or free agency the players we need to make a superbowl run with his number against the cap? 2. Are we going to be able to make this superbowl run while our WR corps is still playing at a high level? It seems to me that the decision not to deal the current QB brings up all kinds of problems with Horn. For example, if we decide not to pay Horn his 4.5 million this year and cut him where are we at then? Or if we can re-sign Joe to a cap friendly deal, how long is he going to play at such a high level? I want a QB who wins games, not one of those \"manager\" types; I just don\'t think our running game (mostly due to the Oline) or defense is strong enough to have that kind of QB. I agree, long term it\'s better to have Elway than Dilfer. I\'m wondering whether our current guy could be our Herschel Walker? I think that his trade value is such that he could buy us 2-3 players that could go a long way towards fixing the defense and OT problems we are facing.
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