11, 18, 16.....................

JKool · 02-06-2005, 06:43 PM

If the defense suffered so greatly by bad field position, how could they manage to allow so many yards to the other teams?

It seems to me like the implication is that the O gave the D such bad field position at say our 20 or 30, the D would have to suck pretty darned hard to give up so many yards a game. That is, the high number of yards per game suggests that the defense gave up long drives, not short ones.

saintswhodi · 02-06-2005, 06:44 PM

The fact that we were better in EVERY category the previous 3 years and we still have not won 10 or 11 games or made the playoffs. We won 9 AB\'s first year. That\'s just a fond memory now. Unless again you wanna count the 7 wins Blake spotted AB, I never will. So like I said, plenty of proof we can\'t.

saintswhodi · 02-06-2005, 06:46 PM

Come on Kool, you are a smart guy. AB led the league in red zone turnovers. Doesn\'t that let you know teams had to drive to score? Couple that with quick scores given to defenses(Denver) or turning the ball over inside our own 20(Seattle) giving the opposing team the ball in their own red zone. Come on man.

JKool · 02-06-2005, 06:49 PM

How much better was the NFC last year?

So much better that there is NO REASON to believe that our Defense dropping from mid to worst and our OLine going from mid to lower-mid doesn\'t show an improvement in our offense?

I guess I don\'t buy it.

Also, of our 8 wins, two were against non-NFC teams.

Furthermore, even if everything you\'ve said here is true, which is a lot to grant, we\'ll be playing roughly the same teams next year. Thus, again, my argument that we have reason to believe that we\'ll win more games with a better OLine and D still stands.

JKool · 02-06-2005, 06:51 PM

The fact that we were better in EVERY category the previous 3 years and we still have not won 10 or 11 games or made the playoffs. We won 9 AB\'s first year. That\'s just a fond memory now. Unless again you wanna count the 7 wins Blake spotted AB, I never will. So like I said, plenty of proof we can\'t.

So, you ascribe to the \"no improvement at all\" school of thought. Are you trying to tell me that you don\'t think that AB has improved AT ALL since those seasons? I don\'t buy that - we can just go back to the stats page we had last time. He\'s improved every year until this year (when the OLine and D fell apart).

JKool · 02-06-2005, 06:55 PM

Come on Kool, you are a smart guy.

Thanks. And so are you.

That is why I\'m confused as to why you don\'t think improving the D would matter - unless (a) AB cannot and has not improved, and/or (b) AB has some magical power to make it impossible for the team to win 9-11 games just because he steps on the field.

JKool · 02-06-2005, 07:02 PM

To be honest, I don\'t understand how you and I can argue to the conclusion that it is hard to say whether AB will make us better or worse next season (based largely on a statistical - i.e. historical - argument), then have you come here and say that what AB does is make it impossible (all on his own) to believe that our team would get more wins if we had a better defense?

Is it so unreasonable to think that if one improves a teams offensive line and defense that a team will win more games (forget the whole AB thing for a second)?

If the answer is yes, then either (1) AB must be the entire reason that we cannot get above 8 games, or (2) we can win enough games to make the playoffs with AB.

(1) seems wildly implausible to me. I agree with the stuff you\'ve said about red zone turn overs and fumbling, but those are things that can be corrected (and, I believe, rather simply if there weren\'t so much pressure on our QB to win games).

Furthermore, no QB in the league is so powerful that he can control what happens in the entirity of the running game, the special teams, and the defense. Now, I know you will grant that special teams, running games, and defense SOMETIMES win games. That seems to me to be completely out of the hands of the QB.

saintswhodi · 02-06-2005, 07:03 PM

So basically Kool you are counting on Carolina having 14 contributors go on IR for us to be better? Or a top player like Priest Holmes out if we play a team like KC? I can\'t ascribe to hoping that kinda lucks keeps our competiton weak again next year, especially since we play the AFC East next year. That may be 4 losses alone. So we will actually be palying better teams next year across the board.

saintswhodi · 02-06-2005, 07:04 PM

Also, I can\'t count a QB who led the league in fumbles one year then the next led in red zone turnovers and straight dumb plays as improving. Maybe we disagree there also. Or maybe we disagree on what \"improvement\" is.

JKool · 02-06-2005, 07:05 PM

Also, just so I can get this straight:

I agree that AB hurt us in some games that season, due to fumbles. However, on your view, what accounts for the fact that we were able to win 8 games with a worse defense and a worse OLine? Was it Duece by himself? Was it Horn? Or was it our skilled positions as a group (but not AB included)?

Your answer to this is that the poor play of all the other teams is what got us 8 wins?

Weren\'t we a team in the NFC - thus, just as bad as those other teams for being a part of such a bad division?

If the \"NFC\" has the power to be bad, then it has the power to make us bad. I guess, I\'m just a bit confused as to how this response works. Sorry for being daft on this one.

02-06-2005, 06:43 PM	#11
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	11, 18, 16..................... If the defense suffered so greatly by bad field position, how could they manage to allow so many yards to the other teams? It seems to me like the implication is that the O gave the D such bad field position at say our 20 or 30, the D would have to suck pretty darned hard to give up so many yards a game. That is, the high number of yards per game suggests that the defense gave up long drives, not short ones.

02-06-2005, 06:44 PM	#12
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	11, 18, 16..................... The fact that we were better in EVERY category the previous 3 years and we still have not won 10 or 11 games or made the playoffs. We won 9 AB\'s first year. That\'s just a fond memory now. Unless again you wanna count the 7 wins Blake spotted AB, I never will. So like I said, plenty of proof we can\'t.

02-06-2005, 06:46 PM	#13
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	11, 18, 16..................... Come on Kool, you are a smart guy. AB led the league in red zone turnovers. Doesn\'t that let you know teams had to drive to score? Couple that with quick scores given to defenses(Denver) or turning the ball over inside our own 20(Seattle) giving the opposing team the ball in their own red zone. Come on man.

02-06-2005, 06:49 PM	#14
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	11, 18, 16..................... How much better was the NFC last year? So much better that there is NO REASON to believe that our Defense dropping from mid to worst and our OLine going from mid to lower-mid doesn\'t show an improvement in our offense? I guess I don\'t buy it. Also, of our 8 wins, two were against non-NFC teams. Furthermore, even if everything you\'ve said here is true, which is a lot to grant, we\'ll be playing roughly the same teams next year. Thus, again, my argument that we have reason to believe that we\'ll win more games with a better OLine and D still stands.
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

02-06-2005, 06:51 PM	#15
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	11, 18, 16..................... The fact that we were better in EVERY category the previous 3 years and we still have not won 10 or 11 games or made the playoffs. We won 9 AB\'s first year. That\'s just a fond memory now. Unless again you wanna count the 7 wins Blake spotted AB, I never will. So like I said, plenty of proof we can\'t. So, you ascribe to the \"no improvement at all\" school of thought. Are you trying to tell me that you don\'t think that AB has improved AT ALL since those seasons? I don\'t buy that - we can just go back to the stats page we had last time. He\'s improved every year until this year (when the OLine and D fell apart).

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02-06-2005, 06:55 PM	#16
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	11, 18, 16..................... Come on Kool, you are a smart guy. Thanks. And so are you. That is why I\'m confused as to why you don\'t think improving the D would matter - unless (a) AB cannot and has not improved, and/or (b) AB has some magical power to make it impossible for the team to win 9-11 games just because he steps on the field.

02-06-2005, 07:02 PM	#17
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	11, 18, 16..................... To be honest, I don\'t understand how you and I can argue to the conclusion that it is hard to say whether AB will make us better or worse next season (based largely on a statistical - i.e. historical - argument), then have you come here and say that what AB does is make it impossible (all on his own) to believe that our team would get more wins if we had a better defense? Is it so unreasonable to think that if one improves a teams offensive line and defense that a team will win more games (forget the whole AB thing for a second)? If the answer is yes, then either (1) AB must be the entire reason that we cannot get above 8 games, or (2) we can win enough games to make the playoffs with AB. (1) seems wildly implausible to me. I agree with the stuff you\'ve said about red zone turn overs and fumbling, but those are things that can be corrected (and, I believe, rather simply if there weren\'t so much pressure on our QB to win games). Furthermore, no QB in the league is so powerful that he can control what happens in the entirity of the running game, the special teams, and the defense. Now, I know you will grant that special teams, running games, and defense SOMETIMES win games. That seems to me to be completely out of the hands of the QB.
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

02-06-2005, 07:03 PM	#18
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	11, 18, 16..................... So basically Kool you are counting on Carolina having 14 contributors go on IR for us to be better? Or a top player like Priest Holmes out if we play a team like KC? I can\'t ascribe to hoping that kinda lucks keeps our competiton weak again next year, especially since we play the AFC East next year. That may be 4 losses alone. So we will actually be palying better teams next year across the board.

02-06-2005, 07:04 PM	#19
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	11, 18, 16..................... Also, I can\'t count a QB who led the league in fumbles one year then the next led in red zone turnovers and straight dumb plays as improving. Maybe we disagree there also. Or maybe we disagree on what \"improvement\" is.

02-06-2005, 07:05 PM	#20
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	11, 18, 16..................... Also, just so I can get this straight: I agree that AB hurt us in some games that season, due to fumbles. However, on your view, what accounts for the fact that we were able to win 8 games with a worse defense and a worse OLine? Was it Duece by himself? Was it Horn? Or was it our skilled positions as a group (but not AB included)? Your answer to this is that the poor play of all the other teams is what got us 8 wins? Weren\'t we a team in the NFC - thus, just as bad as those other teams for being a part of such a bad division? If the \"NFC\" has the power to be bad, then it has the power to make us bad. I guess, I\'m just a bit confused as to how this response works. Sorry for being daft on this one.