11, 18, 16.....................

saintswhodi · 02-06-2005, 04:55 PM

Those are in order our rushing rank, total defensive rank, and scoring defense rank from last year. Can people please stop saying if we had a better running game and a better D AB could get us to the playoffs when it has proven not to be true for the last 3 years?

JKool · 02-06-2005, 05:06 PM

32, 32, 30, 27, 27

Our total yards allowed rank, our total yards per game allowed, our rushing yards allowed rank, our passing yards per game allowed, our points allowed per game rank...

What\'s your point?

It is hard to score when you don\'t have the ball, right?

For as little reason as you say people have to believe that AB could get us to the playoffs, you have as little reason to believe that he couldn\'t, it seems to me.

Basically, what you\'ve shown is that our defense can get much worse and our offense can put up the same number of wins. It seems to follow from that - either (1) our offense can only win 8 games no matter what, or (2) our offense was better this year than last year (thus, with a better defense would be better). I don\'t see how you get (3) AB cannot win more than 8 games?

In fact, it is unclear to me why anyone would think that our number of wins says much about any one player, when we\'re playing a team game?

I don\'t see what is so wrong in reasoning that if the offense was better this year than last year, we would do better with a better offense. Are you claiming there is no way that AB and other players on the O could have become better players since a season ago?

JKool · 02-06-2005, 05:10 PM

Actually, now that I think about it, unless AB has some magical power to make our defense irrelevant as to whether or not we win or lose games, I don\'t see the argument at all.

The claim is that the offense (including AB) is good enough to put 8 wins with a middle of the pack D, the next year they put up 8 wins with a sheity D, so they must be improving. This means that the offense (including AB) is good enough to put up 9-11 wins (which is on track for the playoffs) with a better D.

What is so wrong about that?

[Edited on 6/2/2005 by JKool]

JKool · 02-06-2005, 05:13 PM

In fact, add in the fact that the OLine seems to be getting worse to that argument and you get - it must be AB, the WRs, and Duece who are getting us the wins. They are the ones who are getting better?

Further, Duece was worse this year. Now it looks like it must have been AB and the passing game (and maybe the Special Teams) that are the only things improving?

Ok, I\'ll admit it, I don\'t buy those last two claims, but they don\'t seem to be all that unreasonable conclusions from the fairly reasonable argument I advanced earlier.

saintswhodi · 02-06-2005, 05:32 PM

I think it makes the argument that AB costs us games so no matter how much better or worse the offensive line or defense is, it will not matter. Why do you think we won ONLY 8 games last year? I\'ll give you a hint, starts with F and ends in umbles. By AB. Some even when noone touched him. How many more games do you think we win this year if he doesn\'t LEAD THE LEAGUE IN RED ZONE TURNOVERS. One player can kill a team, especially if he plays the most important position on the field. AB kills this team. If it\'s not one thing it\'s another. That\'s what it shows.

saintswhodi · 02-06-2005, 05:37 PM

I also disagree with the offense not having the ball, unless you consider going three and out every drive of every first quarter as not having the ball. This was explained quite nicely by I believe tobias-reiper in another thread, maybe the one about the O-line. You can read the response there. So while we wanna blame the D, maybe the offense should shoulder some for putting them in the same bad position game after game after game of having to stop the opposing team on numerous consec drives before they decided to score. I don\'t know many others defenses that wouldn\'t be last under those conditions. So I can\'t get behind that either.

saintswhodi · 02-06-2005, 05:38 PM

This means that the offense (including AB) is good enough to put up 9-11 wins (which is on track for the playoffs) with a better D.

There\'s no proof this can be done. But there is plenty it can\'t.

JKool · 02-06-2005, 05:39 PM

I agree that AB hurt us in some games that season, due to fumbles. However, on your view, what accounts for the fact that we were able to win 8 games with a worse defense and a worse OLine? Was it Duece by himself? Was it Horn? Or was it our skilled positions as a group (but not AB included)?

Also, what is wrong with this argument:

The claim is that the offense (including AB) is good enough to put 8 wins with a middle of the pack D, the next year they put up 8 wins with a sheity D, so they must be improving. This means that the offense (including AB) is good enough to put up 9-11 wins (which is on track for the playoffs) with a better D.

JKool · 02-06-2005, 05:41 PM

This means that the offense (including AB) is good enough to put up 9-11 wins (which is on track for the playoffs) with a better D.

There\'s no proof this can be done. But there is plenty it can\'t.

What proof is that?

saintswhodi · 02-06-2005, 05:43 PM

I responded to that quote in another thread. Also, we got 8 wins cause of the worse NFC in memory. Possibly ever. Nothing to brag about at all. Had the Panthers been better, we may have another loss against them. How about Atlanta resting all its starters the second game? I would count that as two losses normally any other year. SO I am not as impressed by our 8 wins as you seem to be Kool.

02-06-2005, 04:55 PM	#1
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	11, 18, 16..................... Those are in order our rushing rank, total defensive rank, and scoring defense rank from last year. Can people please stop saying if we had a better running game and a better D AB could get us to the playoffs when it has proven not to be true for the last 3 years?

02-06-2005, 05:06 PM	#2
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	11, 18, 16..................... 32, 32, 30, 27, 27 Our total yards allowed rank, our total yards per game allowed, our rushing yards allowed rank, our passing yards per game allowed, our points allowed per game rank... What\'s your point? It is hard to score when you don\'t have the ball, right? For as little reason as you say people have to believe that AB could get us to the playoffs, you have as little reason to believe that he couldn\'t, it seems to me. Basically, what you\'ve shown is that our defense can get much worse and our offense can put up the same number of wins. It seems to follow from that - either (1) our offense can only win 8 games no matter what, or (2) our offense was better this year than last year (thus, with a better defense would be better). I don\'t see how you get (3) AB cannot win more than 8 games? In fact, it is unclear to me why anyone would think that our number of wins says much about any one player, when we\'re playing a team game? I don\'t see what is so wrong in reasoning that if the offense was better this year than last year, we would do better with a better offense. Are you claiming there is no way that AB and other players on the O could have become better players since a season ago?
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

02-06-2005, 05:10 PM	#3
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	11, 18, 16..................... Actually, now that I think about it, unless AB has some magical power to make our defense irrelevant as to whether or not we win or lose games, I don\'t see the argument at all. The claim is that the offense (including AB) is good enough to put 8 wins with a middle of the pack D, the next year they put up 8 wins with a sheity D, so they must be improving. This means that the offense (including AB) is good enough to put up 9-11 wins (which is on track for the playoffs) with a better D. What is so wrong about that? [Edited on 6/2/2005 by JKool]
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

02-06-2005, 05:13 PM	#4
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	11, 18, 16..................... In fact, add in the fact that the OLine seems to be getting worse to that argument and you get - it must be AB, the WRs, and Duece who are getting us the wins. They are the ones who are getting better? Further, Duece was worse this year. Now it looks like it must have been AB and the passing game (and maybe the Special Teams) that are the only things improving? Ok, I\'ll admit it, I don\'t buy those last two claims, but they don\'t seem to be all that unreasonable conclusions from the fairly reasonable argument I advanced earlier.
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

02-06-2005, 05:32 PM	#5
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	11, 18, 16..................... I think it makes the argument that AB costs us games so no matter how much better or worse the offensive line or defense is, it will not matter. Why do you think we won ONLY 8 games last year? I\'ll give you a hint, starts with F and ends in umbles. By AB. Some even when noone touched him. How many more games do you think we win this year if he doesn\'t LEAD THE LEAGUE IN RED ZONE TURNOVERS. One player can kill a team, especially if he plays the most important position on the field. AB kills this team. If it\'s not one thing it\'s another. That\'s what it shows.

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02-06-2005, 05:37 PM	#6
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	11, 18, 16..................... I also disagree with the offense not having the ball, unless you consider going three and out every drive of every first quarter as not having the ball. This was explained quite nicely by I believe tobias-reiper in another thread, maybe the one about the O-line. You can read the response there. So while we wanna blame the D, maybe the offense should shoulder some for putting them in the same bad position game after game after game of having to stop the opposing team on numerous consec drives before they decided to score. I don\'t know many others defenses that wouldn\'t be last under those conditions. So I can\'t get behind that either.

02-06-2005, 05:38 PM	#7
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	11, 18, 16..................... This means that the offense (including AB) is good enough to put up 9-11 wins (which is on track for the playoffs) with a better D. There\'s no proof this can be done. But there is plenty it can\'t.

02-06-2005, 05:39 PM	#8
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	11, 18, 16..................... I agree that AB hurt us in some games that season, due to fumbles. However, on your view, what accounts for the fact that we were able to win 8 games with a worse defense and a worse OLine? Was it Duece by himself? Was it Horn? Or was it our skilled positions as a group (but not AB included)? Also, what is wrong with this argument: The claim is that the offense (including AB) is good enough to put 8 wins with a middle of the pack D, the next year they put up 8 wins with a sheity D, so they must be improving. This means that the offense (including AB) is good enough to put up 9-11 wins (which is on track for the playoffs) with a better D.

02-06-2005, 05:41 PM	#9
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	11, 18, 16..................... This means that the offense (including AB) is good enough to put up 9-11 wins (which is on track for the playoffs) with a better D. There\'s no proof this can be done. But there is plenty it can\'t. What proof is that?

02-06-2005, 05:43 PM	#10
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	11, 18, 16..................... I responded to that quote in another thread. Also, we got 8 wins cause of the worse NFC in memory. Possibly ever. Nothing to brag about at all. Had the Panthers been better, we may have another loss against them. How about Atlanta resting all its starters the second game? I would count that as two losses normally any other year. SO I am not as impressed by our 8 wins as you seem to be Kool.