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JKool · 02-10-2005, 05:45 PM

The fact that Benson sticks with guys he likes (if that is true) does not show that he does not want to win. That view is underdetermined by this view: Benson DOES want to win, he just is a bad judge of who can win (or we\'re poor judges of whether those guys can win, take your pick on that last one).

saintswhodi · 02-10-2005, 05:51 PM

Then my question is, he has been an NFL owner how long? How the hell does he not know HOW to win? HE talks to other owners ALL THE TIME. They have meetings and such. You mean to tell me he can\'t ask advice from any of them or simply follow their example? I find that hard to believe. We won under Mora. We won the first year Haz was here. Then Mueller gets fired, and it seems like the care for winning is gone. I know it\'s an opinion kool, but I refuse to believe anyone who has been as owner as long as Benson still doesn\'t know how to differentiate between a winner and a loser. We have been mediocre to losers. You mean to tell me he can\'t do the same thing I do and look at the roster of failed attempts to get better and determine a course of action so he stands pat? I don\'t believe that. I am sticking to CarMax.

saintswhodi · 02-10-2005, 05:54 PM

Danno this is what I said initially:

3. I do not see where we have tried to get better year after year. You may have to explain that one to me. Where has this team tried to get better? I have heard where they SAID we were gonna be better cause of this no name guy or that no name guy, and I never believed it. You are gonna have to explain them trying to get better to me. Like I said above, parity allows us to believe the team when they say the Orlando Ruffs are the key

So I knew we were bringing guys in, and that they weren\'t panning out. SO I think I have been saying what I meant all along.

JKool · 02-10-2005, 06:04 PM

Three possible adjustments:

(1) Go with \"we\'re poor judges of who can win\"
(2) Benson wants to win AND enjoy his ownership experience. Sometimes those are at odds.
(3) We don\'t really understand how personnel decisions are getting made, and Benson is making the best moves he can given his limited Football knowledge.

Those all sound plausible - none of them require that Benson doesn\'t want to win.

saintswhodi · 02-10-2005, 06:44 PM

I guess, but so as not to waste your time, I do not have the belief his ultimate goal is winning. I think he is simply happy to make money and if winning happens along the way, so be it. But I have considered your points.

JKool · 02-10-2005, 07:06 PM

Whodi, I never consider my time wasted here (since I can chose what to read, to whom to I respond, and so on).

I respect your view. My point was just that given the many live competing views, it is unclear that one should be convinced that Benson does not want to win. If someone holds that view, it is very much acceptable to me, but it is certainly not well justified (since there are numerous possibilities that cannot be ruled out that compete with it). Thus, it should not be used as a central premise in arguments - e.g. the reason we suck is because Benson doesn\'t want to win.

saintswhodi · 02-10-2005, 07:19 PM

That\'s why they are opinions Kool. We mainly base our arguments on here on assumptions we have drawn based on the facts of each situation we discuss and the opinions we formulated. Correct? So it is no more justified for someone to take the opposite view of mine, cause either could be right. So basically the central premise of just about any argument on here is one of these OPINIONS. True? So why is it unfair for me to use my opinion as a central premise when everyone here does the same? Including yourself buddy. You draw conclusions from what you see and argue those conclusions do you not? Same thing.

Saint_LB · 02-10-2005, 07:26 PM

I guess, but so as not to waste your time, I do not have the belief his ultimate goal is winning. I think he is simply happy to make money and if winning happens along the way, so be it. But I have considered your points.

This is exactly the camp that I fall in with. I think all of you guys have made interesting points, but the results don\'t lie. Yes, we have signed some FA\'s over the year, but any big-names in that group? They tend to try to address the weaknesses, but not at any expense. It just appears to me that every decision seems to be made with how much we will have to pay the person as a major part of the decision.

As far as paying for tickets being one of the requirements to be a Saint fan, then, I guess I quit being a Saint fan many years ago. I still watch, or listen, with the same spirit as always, but not from the stands. I have not made a conscious effort to boycott the stadium, it is just something that has happened over the last few years when I started subconciously realizing that I am not getting my money\'s worth in return. Lately, it has gotten so bad that I didn\'t even bother to get the dish this year. (Not living in the area for the last few years, that was the only way I could see them on a weekly basis.) I kinda took a wait-and-see attitude, and, I guess I am still waiting. If that makes me not a true Saint fan, then I guess I am guilty as heck. But, somehow, in my heart, I doubt it.

JKool · 02-10-2005, 08:06 PM

Whodi,

Sometimes opinions are all we have, but other times not. This is why people make use of observations (e.g. I saw Brooks smiling after that interception) and stats (e.g. Brooks leads the league in red zone turnovers). Those are NOT merely opinions.

My point wasn\'t that you aren\'t entitled to your opinion - it was that opinions make for poor central premises (since all someone has to do is disagree with that opinion). Unlike observations or stats - it would be plain dumb to say \"Brooks did not lead the league in red zone turnovers\" because he did. That person would simply be wrong.

My point was this: in the case of Benson\'s desire to win, we have no stats or observations that can help pick between the different positions presented (between you and I anyway) above. Thus, you cannot conclude that he doesn\'t want to win. I\'m NOT saying he does want to win; I\'m just saying that we don\'t have access to the kind of evidence that could decide that - UNLIKE statistical evidence, observational evidence, and so on.

I agree with you on this: if someone said, \"Benson does want to win, damn it\", they would be no more justified than you.

I certainly wasn\'t singling YOU out with this comment. I\'m sorry if I made you feel that way.

saintswhodi · 02-10-2005, 08:13 PM

I get what you are saying Kool and that\'s right on. On a position such as what someone\'s desires are, we only have opinion unless they tell us otherwise. But in this instance, since this whole argument is based on opinion, I felt free to allow anyone to argue whatever position they felt whether it be opinion or not cause there is no way we can KNOW, in this instance. Otherwise, you know I keep my facts tight.

LB, I am with you. I don\'t live in the area, but used to go to a Sports bar weekly to catch my boys. Not anymore. Unless I am going with some friends, I wait for the highlights. I still see about 10-12 games, but not every one like I normally did. And of course if they are in the area, like when they played Dallas, I will go, but I am not breaking my neck to pay a cover for a team I don\'t feel is committed to getting better.

02-10-2005, 05:45 PM	#31
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	in case you missed it The fact that Benson sticks with guys he likes (if that is true) does not show that he does not want to win. That view is underdetermined by this view: Benson DOES want to win, he just is a bad judge of who can win (or we\'re poor judges of whether those guys can win, take your pick on that last one).

02-10-2005, 05:51 PM	#32
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	in case you missed it Then my question is, he has been an NFL owner how long? How the hell does he not know HOW to win? HE talks to other owners ALL THE TIME. They have meetings and such. You mean to tell me he can\'t ask advice from any of them or simply follow their example? I find that hard to believe. We won under Mora. We won the first year Haz was here. Then Mueller gets fired, and it seems like the care for winning is gone. I know it\'s an opinion kool, but I refuse to believe anyone who has been as owner as long as Benson still doesn\'t know how to differentiate between a winner and a loser. We have been mediocre to losers. You mean to tell me he can\'t do the same thing I do and look at the roster of failed attempts to get better and determine a course of action so he stands pat? I don\'t believe that. I am sticking to CarMax.

02-10-2005, 05:54 PM	#33
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	in case you missed it Danno this is what I said initially: 3. I do not see where we have tried to get better year after year. You may have to explain that one to me. Where has this team tried to get better? I have heard where they SAID we were gonna be better cause of this no name guy or that no name guy, and I never believed it. You are gonna have to explain them trying to get better to me. Like I said above, parity allows us to believe the team when they say the Orlando Ruffs are the key So I knew we were bringing guys in, and that they weren\'t panning out. SO I think I have been saying what I meant all along.

02-10-2005, 06:04 PM	#34
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	in case you missed it Three possible adjustments: (1) Go with \"we\'re poor judges of who can win\" (2) Benson wants to win AND enjoy his ownership experience. Sometimes those are at odds. (3) We don\'t really understand how personnel decisions are getting made, and Benson is making the best moves he can given his limited Football knowledge. Those all sound plausible - none of them require that Benson doesn\'t want to win.

02-10-2005, 06:44 PM	#35
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	in case you missed it I guess, but so as not to waste your time, I do not have the belief his ultimate goal is winning. I think he is simply happy to make money and if winning happens along the way, so be it. But I have considered your points.

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02-10-2005, 07:06 PM	#36
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	in case you missed it Whodi, I never consider my time wasted here (since I can chose what to read, to whom to I respond, and so on). I respect your view. My point was just that given the many live competing views, it is unclear that one should be convinced that Benson does not want to win. If someone holds that view, it is very much acceptable to me, but it is certainly not well justified (since there are numerous possibilities that cannot be ruled out that compete with it). Thus, it should not be used as a central premise in arguments - e.g. the reason we suck is because Benson doesn\'t want to win.
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

02-10-2005, 07:19 PM	#37
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	in case you missed it That\'s why they are opinions Kool. We mainly base our arguments on here on assumptions we have drawn based on the facts of each situation we discuss and the opinions we formulated. Correct? So it is no more justified for someone to take the opposite view of mine, cause either could be right. So basically the central premise of just about any argument on here is one of these OPINIONS. True? So why is it unfair for me to use my opinion as a central premise when everyone here does the same? Including yourself buddy. You draw conclusions from what you see and argue those conclusions do you not? Same thing.

02-10-2005, 07:26 PM	#38
Saint_LB Deuce Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 2,894	in case you missed it I guess, but so as not to waste your time, I do not have the belief his ultimate goal is winning. I think he is simply happy to make money and if winning happens along the way, so be it. But I have considered your points. This is exactly the camp that I fall in with. I think all of you guys have made interesting points, but the results don\'t lie. Yes, we have signed some FA\'s over the year, but any big-names in that group? They tend to try to address the weaknesses, but not at any expense. It just appears to me that every decision seems to be made with how much we will have to pay the person as a major part of the decision. As far as paying for tickets being one of the requirements to be a Saint fan, then, I guess I quit being a Saint fan many years ago. I still watch, or listen, with the same spirit as always, but not from the stands. I have not made a conscious effort to boycott the stadium, it is just something that has happened over the last few years when I started subconciously realizing that I am not getting my money\'s worth in return. Lately, it has gotten so bad that I didn\'t even bother to get the dish this year. (Not living in the area for the last few years, that was the only way I could see them on a weekly basis.) I kinda took a wait-and-see attitude, and, I guess I am still waiting. If that makes me not a true Saint fan, then I guess I am guilty as heck. But, somehow, in my heart, I doubt it.
Saint_LB Deuce Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 2,894	Whether you think you can or think you can't...you're right!

02-10-2005, 08:06 PM	#39
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	in case you missed it Whodi, Sometimes opinions are all we have, but other times not. This is why people make use of observations (e.g. I saw Brooks smiling after that interception) and stats (e.g. Brooks leads the league in red zone turnovers). Those are NOT merely opinions. My point wasn\'t that you aren\'t entitled to your opinion - it was that opinions make for poor central premises (since all someone has to do is disagree with that opinion). Unlike observations or stats - it would be plain dumb to say \"Brooks did not lead the league in red zone turnovers\" because he did. That person would simply be wrong. My point was this: in the case of Benson\'s desire to win, we have no stats or observations that can help pick between the different positions presented (between you and I anyway) above. Thus, you cannot conclude that he doesn\'t want to win. I\'m NOT saying he does want to win; I\'m just saying that we don\'t have access to the kind of evidence that could decide that - UNLIKE statistical evidence, observational evidence, and so on. I agree with you on this: if someone said, \"Benson does want to win, damn it\", they would be no more justified than you. I certainly wasn\'t singling YOU out with this comment. I\'m sorry if I made you feel that way.
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

02-10-2005, 08:13 PM	#40
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	in case you missed it I get what you are saying Kool and that\'s right on. On a position such as what someone\'s desires are, we only have opinion unless they tell us otherwise. But in this instance, since this whole argument is based on opinion, I felt free to allow anyone to argue whatever position they felt whether it be opinion or not cause there is no way we can KNOW, in this instance. Otherwise, you know I keep my facts tight. LB, I am with you. I don\'t live in the area, but used to go to a Sports bar weekly to catch my boys. Not anymore. Unless I am going with some friends, I wait for the highlights. I still see about 10-12 games, but not every one like I normally did. And of course if they are in the area, like when they played Dallas, I will go, but I am not breaking my neck to pay a cover for a team I don\'t feel is committed to getting better.