3 and outs made our defense look bad?

saintswhodi · 02-23-2005, 03:46 PM

So then you ARE trying to say the performance of our D is the fault of the O? Or not? I still can\'t tell.

Hmm, okay I said this

Please tell me how the offense wasn\'t at least halfway responsible for how poor our D showed.

See. That\'s not all the balme, that\'s half. I am not gonna go look up the stats for 10 games after the Seattle game, you can. We had 3 turnovers first half of that game, we had 33 total takeawys on the year. so even if we got ZERO the next 10 games, that means we had 30 in the last 5? Not likely huh? That is simple math. Again, you can work that out for yourself.

You see to be saying our defense gave the offense all the oppurtunity they should have needed, and I simply disagree with that

You can disagree, I don\'t mind that, but where\'s your facts? Any? I have used them for my argument, now where is yours? Show me how a team with a defense top 10 in turnovers that has an offense who not only doesn\'t score in the first quarter, but regularly goes three and out and turns the ball over didn\'t have their offense hurting the D? You want someone to provide you all the facts so you can disagree with none. Seems kinda unfair. The stats I provided can be seen by anyone who wants to at NFL.com. Why don\'t YOU tell ME how many turnovers they got in the next 10 games. Unless you wanna go with the they got zero theory, then that leaves 30 for the final 5 games. IF you are averaging 6 turnovers a game, your offense could stay in the locker room cause they wouldn\'t be needed.

saintfan · 02-23-2005, 04:20 PM

Stats? People throw stats around here all day long. I don\'t need stats to tell me our defense sucked. Give me the Colts offense and our defense still sucked. You can spin it anyway you\'d like. The TEAM is responsible, and many team\'s offense left their Defense in bad positions from time to time, but ours was ranked DEAD LAST. I have a pretty good idea why you\'d focus on our offense here, but I\'m not buyin what you\'re sellin\'. They were DEAD LAST for a LOT of reasons, the least of which was our offense putting them in a bad position. They were Bad defending the Pass and Bad defending the Run. Your stats will prove that out. You don\'t give up the yards they gave up because you\'re defending a short field. You disagree? I guess you do. We simply disagree.

saintswhodi · 02-23-2005, 04:34 PM

You don\'t give up the yards they gave up because you\'re defending a short field.

Huh? What does a short field have to do with anything? It\'s AMOUNT of possessions given to the opposing team. Our offense gave opposing teams far more possessions than the D can handle. Short field, long field, whatever. You should have said initially you had an opinion on this matter and nothing was gonna change that. I wouldn\'t have bothered then. But I will still try. Explain to me what is longer. One 80 yard drive, or 2 50 yard drives? Now if you agree it is 2 50 yard drives, what does that have to do with a short field. AMOUNT OF POSSESSIONS INCREASES THAT NUMBER. It\'s as plain as day. If we are going 3 and out on O, do you somehow see that as helping our D? If we are not scoring, that is somehow helping our D? Maybe the D should do both, score and stop the other team. That seems to be what you want. How does a D help their offense more than giving them the ball back more than 22 other teams? How does an offense hurt a D more by not only NOT taking advantage of this, but turning the ball over themselves?

Stats? People throw stats around here all day long. I don\'t need stats to tell me our defense sucked.

So if you don\'t need stats, why do you need to continually point out they were ranked 32nd? And why would you ask me to find STATS on turnovers in the 10 games after Seattle if stats aren\'t important to you? Like I said, it will be easier on both of us if next time you just advise me your opinion is already formed and won\'t be changed, you won\'t look up anything to support what you are saying, and I won\'t waste either of our time responding. There is really no challenging the \"this is what I saw with my own eyes so no matter what you find to the contrary I ain\'t believing it\" defense.

xan · 02-23-2005, 04:58 PM

Let\'s put up this hypothetical and you\'re the D-Coordinator:

Say your offense is on and off the field in the blink of an eye.

Because they don\'t gain yardage, you are forced to defend a shorter field against a more aggressive offense.

You give up a couple of scores, but the Offense continues to struggle. Now what?

Do you:

A --- Continue doing what you are doing
B --- Become more aggressive, taking risks in the hope that you can force a turnover and limit downfield advance while knowing that you\'ll give up big plays.

I\'m going to say B, because that\'s what any good coach would do when behind by 10 - 14 points early and the Offense struggling.

So, given that more risks are being taken, what are the odds that those risks will fail, especially when the offense doesn\'t kick in? If you\'re going to lose, what\'s the difference losing by 3 or 30, unless you\'re not trying to win?

I\'m just posing this to explain why the Saints D was ranked 32nd. It also helps explain why they were ranked 10th in turnovers. Risk/Reward/Penalty. It seems like SOMEONE in the organization was trying to adapt. Too bad it didn\'t work.

I can\'t believe that I\'m defending Venturi. I need a priest.

Danno · 02-23-2005, 05:10 PM

It can also be said that our defense hurt our offense. They knew that our defense couldn\'t stop anybody so they had an enormous amount of pressure on them. Therefore the early drops, mistakes, and mental errors.
Boy\'s, we better score a ton cause our defense sucks.
I wonder if this will get 67 various stats to agree/disagree with it?

This is getting ridiculous.
Our offense was average, and our defense was horrible.
Dammed that forest, I wanna see some trees.

saintfan · 02-23-2005, 05:13 PM

Minnesota -- 425 yards passing (5 TD passes in that game)
St. Louis -- 358 yards passing
Oakland -- 350 yards passing
KC -- 311 yards passing
Carolina -- 307 yards passing

We did do pretty well against teams with Rookies or cast offs at QB tho.

Seattle -- 170 yards rushing
San Fran -- 180 yards rushing
Arizona -- 240 was it...yards rushing
Minnesota -- 188 yards rushing
SD -- 251 yards rushing
Denver -- 200 yards rushing
Atlanta -- 186 yards rushing
Carolina -- 132 yards rushing
Dallas -- 121 yards rushing
Tampa Bay -- 169 yards rushing

I think they held the opposing team to under 100 yards rushing 5 times. I rekon they were just tired tho...you blame the offense for %50 of those numbers then? I\'d say we\'ve got a bigger problem. And yeah, I\'d say we disagree. Our defense was DEAD LAST whodi, and Brooks and the offense wasn\'t the reason, but you think like you wanna think. You ain\'t foolin\' me tho.

GumboBC · 02-23-2005, 05:17 PM

You know what\'s REALLY funny?

These same guys that are trying to defend Venturi and the defense are the same guys who are bashing them in other threads!

We got some guys saying that the offense was at least HALF to blame for the 32nd rating. And other folks are trying to pin anything they can on the offense.

Running time off the clock certainly helps the defensive ranking. Running the football is the best way to run time off the clock.

Too bad our running game ranked 27th in the NFL this year. That might have a little something to do with it.

Yeah, we should have just pounded Deuce up the middle and went with a dink and dunk passing game.

We\'ve got folks defending the defense? The defense?

Good Lord!!

saintswhodi · 02-23-2005, 05:18 PM

It can also be said that our defense hurt our offense. They knew that our defense couldn\'t stop anybody so they had an enormous amount of pressure on them. Therefore the early drops, mistakes, and mental errors.
Boy\'s, we better score a ton cause our defense sucks.
I wonder if this will get 67 various stats to agree/disagree with it?

No just this one. How can the defense let down the offense when first game of the season they gave the offense to 3 turnovers IN THE FIRST HALF, and the offense only managed 7 points. All the while the defense held the opposing team to 14, while the offense turned the ball over(we know who) giving Seattle the ball in the red zone. First game of the season. Kinda sets the tone doesn\'t it?

This is getting ridiculous.
Our offense was average, and our defense was horrible

Um, our offense was horrible in the first quarter of just about every game. While the stats show our defense wasn\'t in every game. But believe whatever you want. This IS getting ridiculous. \"Hey, screw the defense. Stats say they are ranked 32nd. I don\'t care if the offense didn\'t score a point all year, they shoulda held the opposing teams to zero too so we coulda had 16 ties, unless the offense decided to score at some point, then the defense can allow a score.\" That about right?

Danno · 02-23-2005, 05:21 PM

But believe whatever you want. This IS getting ridiculous. \"Hey, screw the defense. Stats say they are ranked 32nd. I don\'t care if the offense didn\'t score a point all year, they shoulda held the opposing teams to zero too so we coulda had 16 ties, unless the offense decided to score at some point, then the defense can allow a score.\" That about right?

I have absolutely no earthly clue what you are trying to say here.

saintfan · 02-23-2005, 05:22 PM

How can the defense let down the offense when first game of the season they gave the offense to 3 turnovers IN THE FIRST HALF, and the offense only managed 7 points.

Because they gave up 246 yards passing and 170 yards rushing.

Um, our offense was horrible in the first quarter of just about every game. While the stats show our defense wasn\'t in every game.

I\'ll tell ya what the stats show definitively, and that is that they couldn\'t stop the run. It also shows that when they ran up against a QB worth a flip they couldn\'t stop the pass either. Spin it any way you want to Whodi, but that\'s what the stats show.

02-23-2005, 03:46 PM	#51
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	3 and outs made our defense look bad? So then you ARE trying to say the performance of our D is the fault of the O? Or not? I still can\'t tell. Hmm, okay I said this Please tell me how the offense wasn\'t at least halfway responsible for how poor our D showed. See. That\'s not all the balme, that\'s half. I am not gonna go look up the stats for 10 games after the Seattle game, you can. We had 3 turnovers first half of that game, we had 33 total takeawys on the year. so even if we got ZERO the next 10 games, that means we had 30 in the last 5? Not likely huh? That is simple math. Again, you can work that out for yourself. You see to be saying our defense gave the offense all the oppurtunity they should have needed, and I simply disagree with that You can disagree, I don\'t mind that, but where\'s your facts? Any? I have used them for my argument, now where is yours? Show me how a team with a defense top 10 in turnovers that has an offense who not only doesn\'t score in the first quarter, but regularly goes three and out and turns the ball over didn\'t have their offense hurting the D? You want someone to provide you all the facts so you can disagree with none. Seems kinda unfair. The stats I provided can be seen by anyone who wants to at NFL.com. Why don\'t YOU tell ME how many turnovers they got in the next 10 games. Unless you wanna go with the they got zero theory, then that leaves 30 for the final 5 games. IF you are averaging 6 turnovers a game, your offense could stay in the locker room cause they wouldn\'t be needed.

02-23-2005, 04:20 PM	#52
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	3 and outs made our defense look bad? Stats? People throw stats around here all day long. I don\'t need stats to tell me our defense sucked. Give me the Colts offense and our defense still sucked. You can spin it anyway you\'d like. The TEAM is responsible, and many team\'s offense left their Defense in bad positions from time to time, but ours was ranked DEAD LAST. I have a pretty good idea why you\'d focus on our offense here, but I\'m not buyin what you\'re sellin\'. They were DEAD LAST for a LOT of reasons, the least of which was our offense putting them in a bad position. They were Bad defending the Pass and Bad defending the Run. Your stats will prove that out. You don\'t give up the yards they gave up because you\'re defending a short field. You disagree? I guess you do. We simply disagree.
	C'mon Man...

02-23-2005, 04:34 PM	#53
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	3 and outs made our defense look bad? You don\'t give up the yards they gave up because you\'re defending a short field. Huh? What does a short field have to do with anything? It\'s AMOUNT of possessions given to the opposing team. Our offense gave opposing teams far more possessions than the D can handle. Short field, long field, whatever. You should have said initially you had an opinion on this matter and nothing was gonna change that. I wouldn\'t have bothered then. But I will still try. Explain to me what is longer. One 80 yard drive, or 2 50 yard drives? Now if you agree it is 2 50 yard drives, what does that have to do with a short field. AMOUNT OF POSSESSIONS INCREASES THAT NUMBER. It\'s as plain as day. If we are going 3 and out on O, do you somehow see that as helping our D? If we are not scoring, that is somehow helping our D? Maybe the D should do both, score and stop the other team. That seems to be what you want. How does a D help their offense more than giving them the ball back more than 22 other teams? How does an offense hurt a D more by not only NOT taking advantage of this, but turning the ball over themselves? Stats? People throw stats around here all day long. I don\'t need stats to tell me our defense sucked. So if you don\'t need stats, why do you need to continually point out they were ranked 32nd? And why would you ask me to find STATS on turnovers in the 10 games after Seattle if stats aren\'t important to you? Like I said, it will be easier on both of us if next time you just advise me your opinion is already formed and won\'t be changed, you won\'t look up anything to support what you are saying, and I won\'t waste either of our time responding. There is really no challenging the \"this is what I saw with my own eyes so no matter what you find to the contrary I ain\'t believing it\" defense.

02-23-2005, 04:58 PM	#54
xan Professor Crab and Site Donor 2014 Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Princeton Posts: 3,369 Blog Entries: 34	3 and outs made our defense look bad? Let\'s put up this hypothetical and you\'re the D-Coordinator: Say your offense is on and off the field in the blink of an eye. Because they don\'t gain yardage, you are forced to defend a shorter field against a more aggressive offense. You give up a couple of scores, but the Offense continues to struggle. Now what? Do you: A --- Continue doing what you are doing B --- Become more aggressive, taking risks in the hope that you can force a turnover and limit downfield advance while knowing that you\'ll give up big plays. I\'m going to say B, because that\'s what any good coach would do when behind by 10 - 14 points early and the Offense struggling. So, given that more risks are being taken, what are the odds that those risks will fail, especially when the offense doesn\'t kick in? If you\'re going to lose, what\'s the difference losing by 3 or 30, unless you\'re not trying to win? I\'m just posing this to explain why the Saints D was ranked 32nd. It also helps explain why they were ranked 10th in turnovers. Risk/Reward/Penalty. It seems like SOMEONE in the organization was trying to adapt. Too bad it didn\'t work. I can\'t believe that I\'m defending Venturi. I need a priest.
	Calvin: "I wish I was a Tiger." Hobbes: "Common lament."

02-23-2005, 05:10 PM	#55
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,720	3 and outs made our defense look bad? It can also be said that our defense hurt our offense. They knew that our defense couldn\'t stop anybody so they had an enormous amount of pressure on them. Therefore the early drops, mistakes, and mental errors. Boy\'s, we better score a ton cause our defense sucks. I wonder if this will get 67 various stats to agree/disagree with it? This is getting ridiculous. Our offense was average, and our defense was horrible. Dammed that forest, I wanna see some trees.

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02-23-2005, 05:13 PM	#56
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	3 and outs made our defense look bad? Minnesota -- 425 yards passing (5 TD passes in that game) St. Louis -- 358 yards passing Oakland -- 350 yards passing KC -- 311 yards passing Carolina -- 307 yards passing We did do pretty well against teams with Rookies or cast offs at QB tho. Seattle -- 170 yards rushing San Fran -- 180 yards rushing Arizona -- 240 was it...yards rushing Minnesota -- 188 yards rushing SD -- 251 yards rushing Denver -- 200 yards rushing Atlanta -- 186 yards rushing Carolina -- 132 yards rushing Dallas -- 121 yards rushing Tampa Bay -- 169 yards rushing I think they held the opposing team to under 100 yards rushing 5 times. I rekon they were just tired tho...you blame the offense for %50 of those numbers then? I\'d say we\'ve got a bigger problem. And yeah, I\'d say we disagree. Our defense was DEAD LAST whodi, and Brooks and the offense wasn\'t the reason, but you think like you wanna think. You ain\'t foolin\' me tho.
	C'mon Man...

02-23-2005, 05:17 PM	#57
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	3 and outs made our defense look bad? You know what\'s REALLY funny? These same guys that are trying to defend Venturi and the defense are the same guys who are bashing them in other threads! We got some guys saying that the offense was at least HALF to blame for the 32nd rating. And other folks are trying to pin anything they can on the offense. Running time off the clock certainly helps the defensive ranking. Running the football is the best way to run time off the clock. Too bad our running game ranked 27th in the NFL this year. That might have a little something to do with it. Yeah, we should have just pounded Deuce up the middle and went with a dink and dunk passing game. We\'ve got folks defending the defense? The defense? Good Lord!!
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

02-23-2005, 05:18 PM	#58
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	3 and outs made our defense look bad? It can also be said that our defense hurt our offense. They knew that our defense couldn\'t stop anybody so they had an enormous amount of pressure on them. Therefore the early drops, mistakes, and mental errors. Boy\'s, we better score a ton cause our defense sucks. I wonder if this will get 67 various stats to agree/disagree with it? No just this one. How can the defense let down the offense when first game of the season they gave the offense to 3 turnovers IN THE FIRST HALF, and the offense only managed 7 points. All the while the defense held the opposing team to 14, while the offense turned the ball over(we know who) giving Seattle the ball in the red zone. First game of the season. Kinda sets the tone doesn\'t it? This is getting ridiculous. Our offense was average, and our defense was horrible Um, our offense was horrible in the first quarter of just about every game. While the stats show our defense wasn\'t in every game. But believe whatever you want. This IS getting ridiculous. \"Hey, screw the defense. Stats say they are ranked 32nd. I don\'t care if the offense didn\'t score a point all year, they shoulda held the opposing teams to zero too so we coulda had 16 ties, unless the offense decided to score at some point, then the defense can allow a score.\" That about right?

02-23-2005, 05:21 PM	#59
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,720	3 and outs made our defense look bad? But believe whatever you want. This IS getting ridiculous. \"Hey, screw the defense. Stats say they are ranked 32nd. I don\'t care if the offense didn\'t score a point all year, they shoulda held the opposing teams to zero too so we coulda had 16 ties, unless the offense decided to score at some point, then the defense can allow a score.\" That about right? I have absolutely no earthly clue what you are trying to say here.

02-23-2005, 05:22 PM	#60
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	3 and outs made our defense look bad? How can the defense let down the offense when first game of the season they gave the offense to 3 turnovers IN THE FIRST HALF, and the offense only managed 7 points. Because they gave up 246 yards passing and 170 yards rushing. Um, our offense was horrible in the first quarter of just about every game. While the stats show our defense wasn\'t in every game. I\'ll tell ya what the stats show definitively, and that is that they couldn\'t stop the run. It also shows that when they ran up against a QB worth a flip they couldn\'t stop the pass either. Spin it any way you want to Whodi, but that\'s what the stats show.