Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal
 

Both. Loomis seems to build future guarantees into his deals that reports as guarantees in total, but are only guaranteed if still on the roster. Just one of the things that makes him one of the best money men to ever be involved in the business.

Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal
 

Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal
 

The Fleener haters .... Come about mid season I have a feeling y'all will be buying this guys jersey Lol

Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal
 

I still would've rather them spend the money on D line or O line. I think we could've got by with the TE's we have...maybe another cheap one for depth. I guess they have big plans for the draft.

Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal
 

There are buttloads of cash left. We could not have gotten by with the TE's we had when we knew Ben Watson, who the team loved, could make more elsewhere and deserved better, and the rest of our TE's couldn't find their own tight end to wipe after crapping. Fleener has the talent to be a standout with the Saints.

But,i agree that the Saints ALSO have big plans for the draft. Last year's big acquisition in the front office can truly show his worth.

Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal
 

So what dead money comes off our list in 2017?

Structured nicely if you ask me. Hardly touches our cap this year which means we can go after more.

Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal
 

Don't like the contract but I like the player. I am very sure by end of this next season we will all be looking at his production and very happy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal
 

Yes, nicely structured. but all this talk of dead money means little. New TV deals will continue to help the cap rise at a huge rate for the foreseeable future. Loomis was one of the very few who saw this coming. But then again, he is one of the very few that is trained in the discipline to anticipate these adjustments.

That vast majority of GM's in the NFL are talent oriented with little or no clue of economics or accounting principles. They are primarily personnel driven. Loomis was schooled as an accountant. He knows how to maximize something as simple as a cap. He knows how to to work contracts through cost and management accounting concepts that most cannot understand.

My degree is in accounting and I was among the top of my class. I have always understood what he was doing and he is brilliant. The whole ongoing farce of the Saints being in "cap hell" in based upon a totally uneducated media feeding an equally uneducated public.

Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal
 

This "cap hell" is such a joke, it just shows how lazy today's media is when they recycle the same garbage year after year

when it comes to Loomis:

talent evaluator - questionable
salary cap - he's a freakin genus

Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal
 

Does his signing bonus count toward this year's cap?

Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal
 

Your affection for Loomis gets pretty nauseating, man. You consistently say that fans don't understand this or that, and we all know you're talking about yourself as much as Loomis. You never miss a chance to tell us you have a degree in accounting, and that you saw everything coming.

I don't buy this junk that Loomis is one of the very few GM's who understands economics. You CANNOT run a front office without understanding the money side. If the GM, himself, does not handle the financial side, then I can guarantee you there is someone in that organization whose job it is to specifically handle the cap and study any potential future changes.

This team is constantly hovering around the cap, while other successful teams are not. You know why? Because he over-invests in too many players. I think you give this guy entirely too much credit for doing things that any GM worth his salt should be able to do. But if he can't offer anything in making good personnel decisions, then all he really is, is a glorified accountant.

Fleener is a decent player, but there were much bigger needs with players whom this team unfortunately couldn't reasonably afford. Yes, I am sure they will try to address those things in the draft, but it's nice to have some reliable veterans to add some immediate impact.

Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal
 

Kinda get it but at that premium price no. We have a serious aversion to forming an average defense which is the apex of the problem.

Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal
 

Excited.

Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal
 

Dan Campbell seems like a legit hire and a solid coach; and I'm sure he'll get the all-around game part down for Coby Fleener, Michael Hoomanawanu and Josh Hill?...

There's some legit questions about this guy's ability to catch the ball, especially on third downs and in the red zone...

Can see the Saints addressing the need of big targets on third downs and red zone, but...

Brees under duress with no top flight guards chunking the ball downfield to Coby Fleener and Brandon Coleman?!?

:headscratcher:

Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal
 

BUT he did time share with Dwayne Allen, when Allen was not injured. So I really have to pause before buying into this now. Coby will be abused by Drew and not an after thought like he was in Indi. Expecting the ball and praying for a pass attempt are two totally different mind sets.

I like the kid coming out of college and thought this was a pick up to costly for the saints given other team needs. But once again the saints proved me wrong and put most of their cap eggs in one basket. 7 million + a year is way over the amount he was projected to sign for. He was projected to be in the 4 to 5 mill range and even then I thought that might be to much.

Saints signed TE Coby Fleener, formerly of the Colts, to a five-year, $36 million contract.

Steelers signed TE Ladarius Green, formerly of the Chargers, to a four-year, $20 million contract.
http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/7568/ladarius-green

signings in the same range
Buccaneers signed OG J.R. Sweezy, formerly of the Seahawks, to a five-year, $32.5 million contract.
Jaguars signed FS Tashaun Gipson, formerly of the Browns, to a five-year, $35.5 million contract.
Texans signed G/T Jeff Allen, formerly of the Chiefs, to a four-year, $28 million contract.

other cheaper signings
Falcons signed DE Derrick Shelby, formerly of the Dolphins, to a four-year, $18 million contract.
Chargers signed DT Brandon Mebane, formerly of the Seahawks, to a three-year contract worth $13.5 million.
Dolphins agreed to terms with S Isa Abdul-Quddus, formerly of the Lions, on a three-year, $12.75 million contract.

for a few bucks more
Eagles agreed to terms with RG Brandon Brooks, formerly of the Texans, on a five-year, $40 million contract.
Raiders signed G/T Kelechi Osemele, formerly of the Ravens, to a five-year, $58.5 million contract.
Giants agreed to terms with NT Damon Harrison, formerly of the Jets, on a five-year, $46.25 million contract with $24 million guaranteed.

This one hurt
Falcons signed C Alex Mack, formerly of the Browns, to a five-year, $47.5 million contract.

So just like last year and the signing of Spiller the saints went way over board to get their player.

Fingers, toes and nose hairs crossed that Byrd, Spiller and now Coby can play up to their pay grade.

Well at the very least Coby fantasy stock just got a huge boost along with his wallet.

Falcons made two solid signings as did the Bucs

Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal
 

No. Signing bonuses are always applied proportionately over the remaining contract per year.

Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal
 

Sorry, but that is where you are wrong. Constantly hovering around the cap is known as maximizing available resources. There is far more cap remaining than you know. There are several contracts remaining on roster that were structure for conversion if, and when, needed, including up to $17 million on Brees' contract alone. I point out my knowledge of accounting because it simply means that I understand the concept through specific education.

Have over-investments been made in players by the Saints? Absolutely! But you are naive as hell if you think that is on Loomis. He is exactly what you described him as earlier, a glorified accountant. A damned good one at that. Payton totally runs this ship and tells Loomis to "make it so" and Loomis complies. The personnel and what we have in them are all on Payton. Loomis just makes it work in a remarkable manner.

Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal
 

People love to go on and on about how good Jimmy was for us or how good Gronk is for the Pats. And while I'm not trying to take anything away from either of them, but both teams know how to use the TE positions really effectively, much better than the rest of the league does imo. We'll end up making Fleener look like the next Jimmy Graham.

Note: You can just see with Seattle that they don't know how to use Graham even close to as effective as we used him.

Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal
 

Maximizing resources, eh? That's a clever spin. Our Franchise player is running for his life because we "maximized our resources" on that awesome offensive line over the years. Sorry, but that isn't going to fly in my kitchen. It's poor management of money, as well as personnel. And let me remind you that he is called the general manager for a reason. If he knows nothing more than accounting, then he is a financial advisor. He should have a little more knowledge of the game.

You also seem to confuse what you do with professional sports. There is a system that all teams have to abide by, and it's not the same as everyday banking. So while you're telling all of us how little you think we know, you might want to remember that fact.

On numerous occasions I've read your posts claiming that we don't know what goes on behind the scenes, yet you insist Payton makes all the decisions despite the fact that you haven't spent one more second in the Saints front office than I have. Seems a tad hypocritical to me. You really need to lighten up and accept that we are all fans, and we don't know everything, but that doesn't mean we know nothing. You can have more degrees than a thermometer for all anyone cares. Understanding the cap is not the science you make it out to be.

Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal
 

So we'll se in a year how good a signing this was but I am excited.
I really liked Ben Watson on our team but at 35 he is not the future but Fleener might be.

Fleener is 3 inches taller and has a great vertical, that should make him the ideal target in the corners of the endzone together with Coleman. Cooks and Snead can take all the quick slants and what not.
He went to Stanford so he should be pretty smart, that seems to be an important thing for the Saints when bringing in players. He is also fast and ran a 4,52 40-yard dash back at the combine. Correctly used he should be able to help us stretch the field. All in all I think its a good signing.

I predict 940 yds, 8TDs and a Pro-bowl.

Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal
 

Colston is gone. While Coleman might fill some of those shoes, Fleener steps right in, even if he does not block as well as he should.

Wait... didn't we already have a non-blocking TE already?

Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal
 

It's basically a 2 year deal unless he is a home run hitter. Not bad. He has the measurable to be another Graham. My biggest worry is he wasn't spectacular in Indy with his Stanford roommate flinging the ball around. If he goes 60+ REC 800+ YDS and 8+ TDs Loomis is a genius again.

Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal
 

Since it's $8 million over 5 years, that means that $1.6million will be applied to this year's cap. Coupled with the $800k salary, the total cap number for 2016 is $2.4 million.

So this ends up being a 2 year "show me" contract at about $14 million. If Fleener pans out, then the Saints guarantee another $3.4 million in 2018. If not, then the Saints cuts Fleener and end out paying out $14 million for 2 years of services rendered.

I'm not thrilled. I would have thought that the brain trust would have figured out by now that the path to a championship in the short term isn't by generating more offense. Championships are not won by teams winning 52-49.

But we will see...

SFIAH

Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal
 

Look the light might/might not go off for Fleener here as a pass catching TE...

And Coleman is definitely benefiting from the Payton offensive system...

But when we neeeeded to convert third downs or score in jammed red zones...

Marques Colston and Jimmy Graham were money; Colston was incredible coming out of the gate...

As much as we throw the ball, they'll put up numbers, but will they convert and score on the must have plays?!?

With as little room we have in the season-to-season management of the salary cap...

Added to the desperate situations we have on the defensive line and offensive guards...

This signing is poised for a hot mess, no matter how back-ended the contract may be...

Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal
 

Definitely didn't see this as a top five priority. Now we can lose games 49 to 50 instead of just scoring 42.

Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal
 

I'm a bit torn on this. He has the talent to be a top notch TE in this league but if you've watched him, he has the tendency to drop some of the easiest passes. I wouldn't call him clutch either. I like the Green signing with Pittsburgh better. I'll also miss Watson who was not only productive, but a leader and role model on the team.

I do like the potential of the signing though.

Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal
 

Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal
 

His upside certainly looks exciting.

I like the signing, even though it appears we overpaid, again. But as Mitch pointed out, there are several team options built into that contract so it may look much bigger than it really is.

Sean Payton gets another toy.

Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal
 

What if we go ahead and draft Treadwell? Then it's Treadwell, Cooks, Snead, Fleener, and Coleman. Weapons galore. Of course...the defense and offensive line will probably still be poo...but the toys though.

Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal
 

yeah and then we are left with the ageless questions
- Who is gonna block?
- Who is going to play D.

Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal
 

I like the signing. TE is a huge part of Payton's offense. With Watson leaving, there was definitely a lack of talent at the position that the Saints would have had to address in the draft. I also like the "prove it" contract.
I'd still like the Saints to pick up an OG, I was hoping for Sweezy but there a still a couple good ones available.

Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal
 

This ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^.

Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal
 

NO

Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal
 

Jordan
KWilliams
Jenkins
Kikaha
Anthony
Edibali
Tull
PJWilliams
Byrd
Vaccaro
Lewis
Breaux
Wilson
Swan
Richardson
Sunseri
Davison
Ellerbe

Its not like we have no one on defense. Plenty of talent... a few holes.

Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal
 

You listed 4 players worth a damn, this defense needs playmakers

Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal
 

So, which 4 are you referring to. And the rest are crap? Really?

Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal
 

I love the signing.

Hope it translates to great performance. (All Season)

Still need some D-Oline players

Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal
 

Just because we take Treadwell in the 1st doesn't mean there isn't elite talent in the later rounds on defense. BPA.

Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal
 

Not to take the focus away from the recent Coby signing but ...why we have so many good looking pieces on paper but are so bad? It's because those pieces on defense are at CB, S and Cam Jordan plus a bunch of rookies but we were most certainly dreadfully bad because we were below average at the LB spot. The defense was a broken group, it didn't transition well from one level to the next. It reflected the coaching, filled with uncertainty, change and philosophy. Some of those good pieces were meant for a 34. Some were meant for a 43. Some were meant to play zone and some were meant for man. Because we've flipped flopped schemes for so long and drafted according to that scheme we've become the most versatile defense in the league and it shows on the field because we sucked in every different situation imaginable.

We lack team speed on defense so badly its pathetic.

Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal