Saints match Chicago Bears’ offer, retain tight end Josh Hill

burningmetal · 03-26-2016, 06:02 AM

Originally Posted by |Mitch|

I can see Hill and Fleener tearing it up; just like Hill and Graham would do...

Hard to cover 3 big men with Coleman(6'6), Hill(6'5), Fleener(6'6)

When exactly did Hill and Graham tear it up together? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm seriously asking. Hill has done virtually nothing by any logic I can think of. I don't get what the point is of continuing to kick this proverbial can down the road.

spkb25 · 03-26-2016, 06:50 AM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

When exactly did Hill and Graham tear it up together? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm seriously asking. Hill has done virtually nothing by any logic I can think of. I don't get what the point is of continuing to kick this proverbial can down the road.

I don't think Hill has done much from a catching standpoint, I can' speak of what else he brings to the table. I do remember him making some plays on ST, however.

I agree though, I don't remember them both having like 50-70 catches one season. Thought the same when I read it!

|Mitch| · 03-26-2016, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

When exactly did Hill and Graham tear it up together?

2014; Graham would draw coverage and Hill ended up with 5 TD passes...

Josh Hill \|\| "King of the Hill" á´´á´° \|\| 2014 Highlights - YouTube

burningmetal · 03-26-2016, 08:02 PM

Originally Posted by |Mitch|

2014; Graham would draw coverage and Hill ended up with 5 TD passes...

Josh Hill || "King of the Hill" á´´á´° || 2014 Highlights - YouTube

Yes. GRAHAM drew the coverage away from Hill. And Hill had, I believe, 7 total catches that year. How is that tearing it up? Anyone could have had those 5 touchdowns, when he was left alone.

|Mitch| · 03-26-2016, 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

Yes. GRAHAM drew the coverage away from Hill. And Hill had, I believe, 7 total catches that year. How is that tearing it up? Anyone could have had those 5 touchdowns, when he was left alone.

15 TD's between the 2 TE's and now we have a more athletic and faster Graham in Fleener, whose been playing football and TE a lot longer.

But just go ahead and keep hating the re-signing, even though it actually saves us cap space and offers pretty good depth and an excellent special teams player....

burningmetal · 03-27-2016, 12:29 AM

Originally Posted by |Mitch|

15 TD's between the 2 TE's and now we have a more athletic and faster Graham in Fleener, whose been playing football and TE a lot longer.

But just go ahead and keep hating the re-signing, even though it actually saves us cap space and offers pretty good depth and an excellent special teams player....

That's like saying between me and Drew Brees, we have 420 something TD passes. It doesn't really count when one guy is doing all the work. Again, Hill only had about 7 catches that year. What did he do after that?

I didn't say anything about hating the re-signing, though I don't know why the team thinks they need him. I was more baffled by your comment that Hill and Graham tore it up together. That's just not accurate.

And Fleener is not a faster version of Graham. Fleener runs a 4.5 something, and Graham ran in the 4.4's. Now with injuries Graham has slowed down, but if you're comparing these two in their prime, there isn't a legitimate comparison. But never mind the 40 times... Fleener has never put up more than decent stats. And I was critical of Graham's disappearing act in big games, but he's definitely a far better receiving threat than any of the TE's we have now.

Utah_Saint · 03-27-2016, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

And Fleener is not a faster version of Graham. Fleener runs a 4.5 something, and Graham ran in the 4.4's. Now with injuries Graham has slowed down, but if you're comparing these two in their prime, there isn't a legitimate comparison. But never mind the 40 times... Fleener has never put up more than decent stats. And I was critical of Graham's disappearing act in big games, but he's definitely a far better receiving threat than any of the TE's we have now.

It's the other way around. Fleener ran in the 4.4's, Graham ran in the 4.5's.

I guess everyone has their own definition for "decent stats" but just taking a quick look at TE stats for 2014....

Fleener led TE's in Yards per catch
1. Fleener - 15.2
2. Walker - 14.3
3. Gronkowski - 13.7
4. Paul - 13.0
11. Graham - 10.5

Fleener was 2nd in TD/Catch
1. Antonio Gates - 17.39%
2. Fleener - 15.69%
3. Gronkowski - 14.63%
4. Graham - 11.76%

2nd in 20yds+ Rec
1. Gronkowski - 19
2. Fleener - 16
3. Kelce - 15
4. Walker - 13
11. Graham - 8

5th in YAC/Rec
1. Kelce - 7.01
2. Paul - 6.49
3. Gronkowski - 5.79
4. Walker - 5.63
5. Fleener - 5.59
15. Graham - 3.24

(source: ESPN Stats, Receiving, 2014)

Edit: Fleener also ranked 6th on PFF's pass blocking efficiency ratings. Some of the guys above him on the ranking aren't generally thought of as pass catching TEs. None of the guys ranked higher in Pass Blocking Efficiency, finished in the top 15 in receptions.

burningmetal · 03-29-2016, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by Utah_Saint

It's the other way around. Fleener ran in the 4.4's, Graham ran in the 4.5's.

I guess everyone has their own definition for "decent stats" but just taking a quick look at TE stats for 2014....

Fleener led TE's in Yards per catch
1. Fleener - 15.2
2. Walker - 14.3
3. Gronkowski - 13.7
4. Paul - 13.0
11. Graham - 10.5

Fleener was 2nd in TD/Catch
1. Antonio Gates - 17.39%
2. Fleener - 15.69%
3. Gronkowski - 14.63%
4. Graham - 11.76%

2nd in 20yds+ Rec
1. Gronkowski - 19
2. Fleener - 16
3. Kelce - 15
4. Walker - 13
11. Graham - 8

5th in YAC/Rec
1. Kelce - 7.01
2. Paul - 6.49
3. Gronkowski - 5.79
4. Walker - 5.63
5. Fleener - 5.59
15. Graham - 3.24

(source: ESPN Stats, Receiving, 2014)

Edit: Fleener also ranked 6th on PFF's pass blocking efficiency ratings. Some of the guys above him on the ranking aren't generally thought of as pass catching TEs. None of the guys ranked higher in Pass Blocking Efficiency, finished in the top 15 in receptions.

I don't believe I have it backwards with the 40 times. I remember reading somewhere, after we selected him, that Jimmy ran somewhere in the 4.4's. If that information was incorrect, nevertheless, I can't find anything that has Fleener in the 4.4's. Watching Fleener in games, he looks nothing close to that, frankly. And as far as yards per catch, I couldn't care less. Devery Henderson used to excel in that category. I'm more interested in the volume of catches, and the ability to make tough catches in crucial situations. And using the TD per catch stat, you would have Josh Hill probably at number one a couple of years ago. That stat is meaningless.

As I've said, Fleener is a decent player. I'm not totally dumping all over his ability. I think he brings certain things to the table. But he's no Jimmy Graham, and Graham himself was not the most reliable in critical situations.

03-26-2016, 06:02 AM	#1
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Josh Hill Originally Posted by \|Mitch\| I can see Hill and Fleener tearing it up; just like Hill and Graham would do... Hard to cover 3 big men with Coleman(6'6), Hill(6'5), Fleener(6'6) When exactly did Hill and Graham tear it up together? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm seriously asking. Hill has done virtually nothing by any logic I can think of. I don't get what the point is of continuing to kick this proverbial can down the road. brees84 likes this.

03-26-2016, 06:50 AM	#2
spkb25 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 13,144	Re: Josh Hill Originally Posted by burningmetal When exactly did Hill and Graham tear it up together? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm seriously asking. Hill has done virtually nothing by any logic I can think of. I don't get what the point is of continuing to kick this proverbial can down the road. I don't think Hill has done much from a catching standpoint, I can' speak of what else he brings to the table. I do remember him making some plays on ST, however. I agree though, I don't remember them both having like 50-70 catches one season. Thought the same when I read it!

03-26-2016, 08:02 PM	#4
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Josh Hill Originally Posted by \|Mitch\| 2014; Graham would draw coverage and Hill ended up with 5 TD passes... Josh Hill \|\| "King of the Hill" á´´á´° \|\| 2014 Highlights - YouTube Yes. GRAHAM drew the coverage away from Hill. And Hill had, I believe, 7 total catches that year. How is that tearing it up? Anyone could have had those 5 touchdowns, when he was left alone.

03-26-2016, 08:23 PM	#5
\|Mitch\| 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Alexandria, La Posts: 11,303	Re: Josh Hill Originally Posted by burningmetal Yes. GRAHAM drew the coverage away from Hill. And Hill had, I believe, 7 total catches that year. How is that tearing it up? Anyone could have had those 5 touchdowns, when he was left alone. 15 TD's between the 2 TE's and now we have a more athletic and faster Graham in Fleener, whose been playing football and TE a lot longer. But just go ahead and keep hating the re-signing, even though it actually saves us cap space and offers pretty good depth and an excellent special teams player....

03-27-2016, 12:29 AM	#6
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Josh Hill Originally Posted by \|Mitch\| 15 TD's between the 2 TE's and now we have a more athletic and faster Graham in Fleener, whose been playing football and TE a lot longer. But just go ahead and keep hating the re-signing, even though it actually saves us cap space and offers pretty good depth and an excellent special teams player.... That's like saying between me and Drew Brees, we have 420 something TD passes. It doesn't really count when one guy is doing all the work. Again, Hill only had about 7 catches that year. What did he do after that? I didn't say anything about hating the re-signing, though I don't know why the team thinks they need him. I was more baffled by your comment that Hill and Graham tore it up together. That's just not accurate. And Fleener is not a faster version of Graham. Fleener runs a 4.5 something, and Graham ran in the 4.4's. Now with injuries Graham has slowed down, but if you're comparing these two in their prime, there isn't a legitimate comparison. But never mind the 40 times... Fleener has never put up more than decent stats. And I was critical of Graham's disappearing act in big games, but he's definitely a far better receiving threat than any of the TE's we have now.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

03-27-2016, 11:12 AM	#7
Utah_Saint Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah Posts: 3,521	Re: Josh Hill Originally Posted by burningmetal And Fleener is not a faster version of Graham. Fleener runs a 4.5 something, and Graham ran in the 4.4's. Now with injuries Graham has slowed down, but if you're comparing these two in their prime, there isn't a legitimate comparison. But never mind the 40 times... Fleener has never put up more than decent stats. And I was critical of Graham's disappearing act in big games, but he's definitely a far better receiving threat than any of the TE's we have now. It's the other way around. Fleener ran in the 4.4's, Graham ran in the 4.5's. I guess everyone has their own definition for "decent stats" but just taking a quick look at TE stats for 2014.... Fleener led TE's in Yards per catch 1. Fleener - 15.2 2. Walker - 14.3 3. Gronkowski - 13.7 4. Paul - 13.0 11. Graham - 10.5 Fleener was 2nd in TD/Catch 1. Antonio Gates - 17.39% 2. Fleener - 15.69% 3. Gronkowski - 14.63% 4. Graham - 11.76% 2nd in 20yds+ Rec 1. Gronkowski - 19 2. Fleener - 16 3. Kelce - 15 4. Walker - 13 11. Graham - 8 5th in YAC/Rec 1. Kelce - 7.01 2. Paul - 6.49 3. Gronkowski - 5.79 4. Walker - 5.63 5. Fleener - 5.59 15. Graham - 3.24 (source: ESPN Stats, Receiving, 2014) Edit: Fleener also ranked 6th on PFF's pass blocking efficiency ratings. Some of the guys above him on the ranking aren't generally thought of as pass catching TEs. None of the guys ranked higher in Pass Blocking Efficiency, finished in the top 15 in receptions.

03-29-2016, 10:59 AM	#8
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Josh Hill Originally Posted by Utah_Saint It's the other way around. Fleener ran in the 4.4's, Graham ran in the 4.5's. I guess everyone has their own definition for "decent stats" but just taking a quick look at TE stats for 2014.... Fleener led TE's in Yards per catch 1. Fleener - 15.2 2. Walker - 14.3 3. Gronkowski - 13.7 4. Paul - 13.0 11. Graham - 10.5 Fleener was 2nd in TD/Catch 1. Antonio Gates - 17.39% 2. Fleener - 15.69% 3. Gronkowski - 14.63% 4. Graham - 11.76% 2nd in 20yds+ Rec 1. Gronkowski - 19 2. Fleener - 16 3. Kelce - 15 4. Walker - 13 11. Graham - 8 5th in YAC/Rec 1. Kelce - 7.01 2. Paul - 6.49 3. Gronkowski - 5.79 4. Walker - 5.63 5. Fleener - 5.59 15. Graham - 3.24 (source: ESPN Stats, Receiving, 2014) Edit: Fleener also ranked 6th on PFF's pass blocking efficiency ratings. Some of the guys above him on the ranking aren't generally thought of as pass catching TEs. None of the guys ranked higher in Pass Blocking Efficiency, finished in the top 15 in receptions. I don't believe I have it backwards with the 40 times. I remember reading somewhere, after we selected him, that Jimmy ran somewhere in the 4.4's. If that information was incorrect, nevertheless, I can't find anything that has Fleener in the 4.4's. Watching Fleener in games, he looks nothing close to that, frankly. And as far as yards per catch, I couldn't care less. Devery Henderson used to excel in that category. I'm more interested in the volume of catches, and the ability to make tough catches in crucial situations. And using the TD per catch stat, you would have Josh Hill probably at number one a couple of years ago. That stat is meaningless. As I've said, Fleener is a decent player. I'm not totally dumping all over his ability. I think he brings certain things to the table. But he's no Jimmy Graham, and Graham himself was not the most reliable in critical situations. brees84 likes this.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

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