Saints match Chicago Bears’ offer, retain tight end Josh Hill

03-26-2016, 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

Yes. GRAHAM drew the coverage away from Hill. And Hill had, I believe, 7 total catches that year. How is that tearing it up? Anyone could have had those 5 touchdowns, when he was left alone.

15 TD's between the 2 TE's and now we have a more athletic and faster Graham in Fleener, whose been playing football and TE a lot longer.

But just go ahead and keep hating the re-signing, even though it actually saves us cap space and offers pretty good depth and an excellent special teams player....

burningmetal · 03-27-2016, 01:29 AM

Originally Posted by |Mitch|

15 TD's between the 2 TE's and now we have a more athletic and faster Graham in Fleener, whose been playing football and TE a lot longer.

But just go ahead and keep hating the re-signing, even though it actually saves us cap space and offers pretty good depth and an excellent special teams player....

That's like saying between me and Drew Brees, we have 420 something TD passes. It doesn't really count when one guy is doing all the work. Again, Hill only had about 7 catches that year. What did he do after that?

I didn't say anything about hating the re-signing, though I don't know why the team thinks they need him. I was more baffled by your comment that Hill and Graham tore it up together. That's just not accurate.

And Fleener is not a faster version of Graham. Fleener runs a 4.5 something, and Graham ran in the 4.4's. Now with injuries Graham has slowed down, but if you're comparing these two in their prime, there isn't a legitimate comparison. But never mind the 40 times... Fleener has never put up more than decent stats. And I was critical of Graham's disappearing act in big games, but he's definitely a far better receiving threat than any of the TE's we have now.

Mr.Riaton · 03-27-2016, 10:22 AM

I believe Hill is wanted more for his run blocking and ST. I think we have come to the conclusion that all our TE's have to be used as pass catching,play making specialist. Sean has never let us down year after year with our offense, so if he wants him here, then good. I'm sure Hill is doing something worth staying here.

Utah_Saint · 03-27-2016, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

And Fleener is not a faster version of Graham. Fleener runs a 4.5 something, and Graham ran in the 4.4's. Now with injuries Graham has slowed down, but if you're comparing these two in their prime, there isn't a legitimate comparison. But never mind the 40 times... Fleener has never put up more than decent stats. And I was critical of Graham's disappearing act in big games, but he's definitely a far better receiving threat than any of the TE's we have now.

It's the other way around. Fleener ran in the 4.4's, Graham ran in the 4.5's.

I guess everyone has their own definition for "decent stats" but just taking a quick look at TE stats for 2014....

Fleener led TE's in Yards per catch
1. Fleener - 15.2
2. Walker - 14.3
3. Gronkowski - 13.7
4. Paul - 13.0
11. Graham - 10.5

Fleener was 2nd in TD/Catch
1. Antonio Gates - 17.39%
2. Fleener - 15.69%
3. Gronkowski - 14.63%
4. Graham - 11.76%

2nd in 20yds+ Rec
1. Gronkowski - 19
2. Fleener - 16
3. Kelce - 15
4. Walker - 13
11. Graham - 8

5th in YAC/Rec
1. Kelce - 7.01
2. Paul - 6.49
3. Gronkowski - 5.79
4. Walker - 5.63
5. Fleener - 5.59
15. Graham - 3.24

(source: ESPN Stats, Receiving, 2014)

Edit: Fleener also ranked 6th on PFF's pass blocking efficiency ratings. Some of the guys above him on the ranking aren't generally thought of as pass catching TEs. None of the guys ranked higher in Pass Blocking Efficiency, finished in the top 15 in receptions.

neugey · 03-28-2016, 11:49 PM

I'm not sure it was a real cost-efficient move, but in the event Fleener gets banged up or needs rest, we don't want to get to caught without a receiving threat at tight-end (Hooman's pretty much a blocking specialist).

burningmetal · 03-29-2016, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by Utah_Saint

It's the other way around. Fleener ran in the 4.4's, Graham ran in the 4.5's.

I guess everyone has their own definition for "decent stats" but just taking a quick look at TE stats for 2014....

Fleener led TE's in Yards per catch
1. Fleener - 15.2
2. Walker - 14.3
3. Gronkowski - 13.7
4. Paul - 13.0
11. Graham - 10.5

Fleener was 2nd in TD/Catch
1. Antonio Gates - 17.39%
2. Fleener - 15.69%
3. Gronkowski - 14.63%
4. Graham - 11.76%

2nd in 20yds+ Rec
1. Gronkowski - 19
2. Fleener - 16
3. Kelce - 15
4. Walker - 13
11. Graham - 8

5th in YAC/Rec
1. Kelce - 7.01
2. Paul - 6.49
3. Gronkowski - 5.79
4. Walker - 5.63
5. Fleener - 5.59
15. Graham - 3.24

(source: ESPN Stats, Receiving, 2014)

Edit: Fleener also ranked 6th on PFF's pass blocking efficiency ratings. Some of the guys above him on the ranking aren't generally thought of as pass catching TEs. None of the guys ranked higher in Pass Blocking Efficiency, finished in the top 15 in receptions.

I don't believe I have it backwards with the 40 times. I remember reading somewhere, after we selected him, that Jimmy ran somewhere in the 4.4's. If that information was incorrect, nevertheless, I can't find anything that has Fleener in the 4.4's. Watching Fleener in games, he looks nothing close to that, frankly. And as far as yards per catch, I couldn't care less. Devery Henderson used to excel in that category. I'm more interested in the volume of catches, and the ability to make tough catches in crucial situations. And using the TD per catch stat, you would have Josh Hill probably at number one a couple of years ago. That stat is meaningless.

As I've said, Fleener is a decent player. I'm not totally dumping all over his ability. I think he brings certain things to the table. But he's no Jimmy Graham, and Graham himself was not the most reliable in critical situations.

Crusader · 03-29-2016, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

I don't believe I have it backwards with the 40 times. I remember reading somewhere, after we selected him, that Jimmy ran somewhere in the 4.4's. If that information was incorrect, nevertheless, I can't find anything that has Fleener in the 4.4's. Watching Fleener in games, he looks nothing close to that, frankly. And as far as yards per catch, I couldn't care less. Devery Henderson used to excel in that category. I'm more interested in the volume of catches, and the ability to make tough catches in crucial situations. And using the TD per catch stat, you would have Josh Hill probably at number one a couple of years ago. That stat is meaningless.

As I've said, Fleener is a decent player. I'm not totally dumping all over his ability. I think he brings certain things to the table. But he's no Jimmy Graham, and Graham himself was not the most reliable in critical situations.

Info such as 40 times are really not that hard to find. Fleener was invited to the combine (2012) but didn't run due to an ankle injury. He had a 4.51s 40 at his pro day thou. Graham also was invited to the combine (2010) where he ran a 4.56s 40.

burningmetal · 03-30-2016, 12:35 AM

Originally Posted by Crusader

Info such as 40 times are really not that hard to find. Fleener was invited to the combine (2012) but didn't run due to an ankle injury. He had a 4.51s 40 at his pro day thou. Graham also was invited to the combine (2010) where he ran a 4.56s 40.

I'm aware of how to find it. I distinctly remember, however, reading something about Jimmy running in the 4.4's. When you type in "40 time" for any player you tend to only get the combine number. There are always conflicting numbers given from different time mechanisms that are used. But as I said to the other poster, there is nothing about Fleener running in the 4.4's. More importantly, Jimmy had "football speed". Fleener doesn't appear to move THAT well in pads, to me. And my whole point is in response to someone who said we're getting a faster version of Graham.

brees84 · 03-30-2016, 10:07 AM

Hill has no trade clause.

RaginCajun83 · 03-30-2016, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by brees84

Hill has no trade clause.

what?

03-26-2016, 09:23 PM	#41
Threaded by \|Mitch\| 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Alexandria, La Posts: 11,303 Rating: (0 votes - average) Originally Posted by burningmetal Yes. GRAHAM drew the coverage away from Hill. And Hill had, I believe, 7 total catches that year. How is that tearing it up? Anyone could have had those 5 touchdowns, when he was left alone. 15 TD's between the 2 TE's and now we have a more athletic and faster Graham in Fleener, whose been playing football and TE a lot longer. But just go ahead and keep hating the re-signing, even though it actually saves us cap space and offers pretty good depth and an excellent special teams player....
Views: 8162

03-27-2016, 01:29 AM	#42
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Josh Hill Originally Posted by \|Mitch\| 15 TD's between the 2 TE's and now we have a more athletic and faster Graham in Fleener, whose been playing football and TE a lot longer. But just go ahead and keep hating the re-signing, even though it actually saves us cap space and offers pretty good depth and an excellent special teams player.... That's like saying between me and Drew Brees, we have 420 something TD passes. It doesn't really count when one guy is doing all the work. Again, Hill only had about 7 catches that year. What did he do after that? I didn't say anything about hating the re-signing, though I don't know why the team thinks they need him. I was more baffled by your comment that Hill and Graham tore it up together. That's just not accurate. And Fleener is not a faster version of Graham. Fleener runs a 4.5 something, and Graham ran in the 4.4's. Now with injuries Graham has slowed down, but if you're comparing these two in their prime, there isn't a legitimate comparison. But never mind the 40 times... Fleener has never put up more than decent stats. And I was critical of Graham's disappearing act in big games, but he's definitely a far better receiving threat than any of the TE's we have now.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

03-27-2016, 10:22 AM	#43
Mr.Riaton 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Broussard,La. Posts: 1,264	Re: Saints match Chicago Bears’ offer, retain tight end Josh Hill I believe Hill is wanted more for his run blocking and ST. I think we have come to the conclusion that all our TE's have to be used as pass catching,play making specialist. Sean has never let us down year after year with our offense, so if he wants him here, then good. I'm sure Hill is doing something worth staying here.

03-27-2016, 12:12 PM	#44
Utah_Saint Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah Posts: 3,521	Re: Josh Hill Originally Posted by burningmetal And Fleener is not a faster version of Graham. Fleener runs a 4.5 something, and Graham ran in the 4.4's. Now with injuries Graham has slowed down, but if you're comparing these two in their prime, there isn't a legitimate comparison. But never mind the 40 times... Fleener has never put up more than decent stats. And I was critical of Graham's disappearing act in big games, but he's definitely a far better receiving threat than any of the TE's we have now. It's the other way around. Fleener ran in the 4.4's, Graham ran in the 4.5's. I guess everyone has their own definition for "decent stats" but just taking a quick look at TE stats for 2014.... Fleener led TE's in Yards per catch 1. Fleener - 15.2 2. Walker - 14.3 3. Gronkowski - 13.7 4. Paul - 13.0 11. Graham - 10.5 Fleener was 2nd in TD/Catch 1. Antonio Gates - 17.39% 2. Fleener - 15.69% 3. Gronkowski - 14.63% 4. Graham - 11.76% 2nd in 20yds+ Rec 1. Gronkowski - 19 2. Fleener - 16 3. Kelce - 15 4. Walker - 13 11. Graham - 8 5th in YAC/Rec 1. Kelce - 7.01 2. Paul - 6.49 3. Gronkowski - 5.79 4. Walker - 5.63 5. Fleener - 5.59 15. Graham - 3.24 (source: ESPN Stats, Receiving, 2014) Edit: Fleener also ranked 6th on PFF's pass blocking efficiency ratings. Some of the guys above him on the ranking aren't generally thought of as pass catching TEs. None of the guys ranked higher in Pass Blocking Efficiency, finished in the top 15 in receptions.

03-28-2016, 11:49 PM	#45
neugey Hu Dat! Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 6,719 Blog Entries: 13	Re: Saints match Chicago Bears’ offer, retain tight end Josh Hill I'm not sure it was a real cost-efficient move, but in the event Fleener gets banged up or needs rest, we don't want to get to caught without a receiving threat at tight-end (Hooman's pretty much a blocking specialist).

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03-29-2016, 11:59 AM	#46
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Josh Hill Originally Posted by Utah_Saint It's the other way around. Fleener ran in the 4.4's, Graham ran in the 4.5's. I guess everyone has their own definition for "decent stats" but just taking a quick look at TE stats for 2014.... Fleener led TE's in Yards per catch 1. Fleener - 15.2 2. Walker - 14.3 3. Gronkowski - 13.7 4. Paul - 13.0 11. Graham - 10.5 Fleener was 2nd in TD/Catch 1. Antonio Gates - 17.39% 2. Fleener - 15.69% 3. Gronkowski - 14.63% 4. Graham - 11.76% 2nd in 20yds+ Rec 1. Gronkowski - 19 2. Fleener - 16 3. Kelce - 15 4. Walker - 13 11. Graham - 8 5th in YAC/Rec 1. Kelce - 7.01 2. Paul - 6.49 3. Gronkowski - 5.79 4. Walker - 5.63 5. Fleener - 5.59 15. Graham - 3.24 (source: ESPN Stats, Receiving, 2014) Edit: Fleener also ranked 6th on PFF's pass blocking efficiency ratings. Some of the guys above him on the ranking aren't generally thought of as pass catching TEs. None of the guys ranked higher in Pass Blocking Efficiency, finished in the top 15 in receptions. I don't believe I have it backwards with the 40 times. I remember reading somewhere, after we selected him, that Jimmy ran somewhere in the 4.4's. If that information was incorrect, nevertheless, I can't find anything that has Fleener in the 4.4's. Watching Fleener in games, he looks nothing close to that, frankly. And as far as yards per catch, I couldn't care less. Devery Henderson used to excel in that category. I'm more interested in the volume of catches, and the ability to make tough catches in crucial situations. And using the TD per catch stat, you would have Josh Hill probably at number one a couple of years ago. That stat is meaningless. As I've said, Fleener is a decent player. I'm not totally dumping all over his ability. I think he brings certain things to the table. But he's no Jimmy Graham, and Graham himself was not the most reliable in critical situations. brees84 likes this.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

03-29-2016, 04:56 PM	#47
Crusader Resident Swede Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Märsta, Sweden Posts: 8,025	Re: Josh Hill Originally Posted by burningmetal I don't believe I have it backwards with the 40 times. I remember reading somewhere, after we selected him, that Jimmy ran somewhere in the 4.4's. If that information was incorrect, nevertheless, I can't find anything that has Fleener in the 4.4's. Watching Fleener in games, he looks nothing close to that, frankly. And as far as yards per catch, I couldn't care less. Devery Henderson used to excel in that category. I'm more interested in the volume of catches, and the ability to make tough catches in crucial situations. And using the TD per catch stat, you would have Josh Hill probably at number one a couple of years ago. That stat is meaningless. As I've said, Fleener is a decent player. I'm not totally dumping all over his ability. I think he brings certain things to the table. But he's no Jimmy Graham, and Graham himself was not the most reliable in critical situations. Info such as 40 times are really not that hard to find. Fleener was invited to the combine (2012) but didn't run due to an ankle injury. He had a 4.51s 40 at his pro day thou. Graham also was invited to the combine (2010) where he ran a 4.56s 40.

03-30-2016, 12:35 AM	#48
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Josh Hill Originally Posted by Crusader Info such as 40 times are really not that hard to find. Fleener was invited to the combine (2012) but didn't run due to an ankle injury. He had a 4.51s 40 at his pro day thou. Graham also was invited to the combine (2010) where he ran a 4.56s 40. I'm aware of how to find it. I distinctly remember, however, reading something about Jimmy running in the 4.4's. When you type in "40 time" for any player you tend to only get the combine number. There are always conflicting numbers given from different time mechanisms that are used. But as I said to the other poster, there is nothing about Fleener running in the 4.4's. More importantly, Jimmy had "football speed". Fleener doesn't appear to move THAT well in pads, to me. And my whole point is in response to someone who said we're getting a faster version of Graham.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

03-30-2016, 10:07 AM	#49
brees84 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 3,015	Re: Saints match Chicago Bears’ offer, retain tight end Josh Hill Hill has no trade clause.
brees84 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 3,015

03-30-2016, 10:16 AM	#50
RaginCajun83 Hou Saints Fan Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Houston, Tx Posts: 5,050	Re: Saints match Chicago Bears’ offer, retain tight end Josh Hill Originally Posted by brees84 Hill has no trade clause. what?

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