The right to bear arms main reason for being a part of The Constitution is just in case the people ever had to take up arms against the government. I'm indifferent on the issue. I've never owned a gun, although I've shot em a couple times. I might get one now that I have a daughter. Lol. But it's whatever. My concern is eradicating the conditions that most often lead to violent crime.

Slo, I rarely disagree with you on anything, and I'm not saying I disagree with everything you said, but one doesn't simply shoot a person over road rage without having a serious personal issue. You don't have to tell me that things like this escalate, because I already know that very well. The question is how, or why, does it escalate? I've been mad at drivers for cutting in front of me, and then flipping me off when I honk at them. But I never for a second entertained the idea of killing them.

It's sounds like you think it's making excuses to say these people have something wrong with them. I'm not making ANY excuse for criminals. Whatever circumstances you came from does not give you the right to be violent. But there has to be a reason that people become the way they are. Every human being is inherently evil and capable of doing horrible things without proper guidance. Some people just never develop a moral compass. Some are born with a mental predisposition that makes them more prone to outbursts. Whatever the origin of the problem, there is certainly something wrong.

You asked if I think he was conditioned to hate Smith because of his friendship with Ceravolo. I think it's highly likely, yes. Whatever lawsuit he had going on, he would have had a hard time winning that case. I'm not sure why I should question his willingness to jeopardize his case when that is EXACTLY what he did. Smith was shot in the back. That doesn't sound like self defense. Where's the other gun?

When did I say that all poor people go around shooting others? I mentioned a few of the symptoms (didn't think I had to list every single one) that lead to crime, in making my point that blaming the weapon is misguided.

I understand your premise in this individual incident, but poverty, poor education, and societal dismissal go hand in hand with poverty globally. That's way before we even start the conversation on systematic racism and PTSD as well as other mental health issues young, Black people don't get quality care for. I just wrote a discussion for school about the lack of mental health care for minorities, with an emphasis on African Americans. The Black Middle Class, although I'd argue there's really no such thing, has crime rates not much different from their counterparts. America created ghettos with red lining, zoning laws, and housing discrimination. They got the idea from Hitler and didn't even bother to change the name. So at the end of the day, the heart of the problem is socioeconomic. Playing 400 year catch up isn't easy. To be honest, we never will. As far as this incident in particular is concerned, it's like John Lennon getting shot and killed. It just happened, and it's unfortunate.

Also, all homicides are overwhelmingly intraracial. I agree with you when it comes to the lack of "care" shown by our country in war zones like Detroit and Chicago. It shouldn't take a football player to draw attention to the help that's needed across the country. This has become my greatest passion. I go over statistics and socioeconomic studies all day. I watch professors, doctors, activists, and politicians give insight and solutions or lack thereof. I read the historical events and legislature, as well as the current events and legislature. I really, really care. I was blessed. I had both parents. They gave me a great foundation. I don't have to be worried about where I started and the people still stuck there, but I am. I'll have my bachelor's in Healthcare Administration and Education in August. I'm going right back for my Master's. I want to open up clinics, and one day hospitals in these impoverished areas. I want to target those children and guide them into Healthcare fields where they can come work for me. I want to save the culture, because I know nobody else will.

Wait, did I just read you can get PTSD by being a young black male? Please for the love of God don't go there. As a military vet and a LEO I find that more offensive than anything I have ever read on here. PTSD is not a STD or the FLU. A ton of military vets who come home after being shot at everyday should not be in the same boat as someone growing up on the south side.

It's not a disagreement, it's a discussion, and I appreciate your opinions. When you stop talking about stuff is when the problems start, IMO.



I'm just trying to make sense of it all and I do think it's making excuses to some extent, the constant attempt to apply mitigating factors to situations like this vs just applying personal responsibility. It's a mistake we make, IMO, that we don't consider these incidents in a more individual/specific manner. Does growing up poor make you a shooter? Does lack of opportunity remove you from personal responsibility for your actions? I don't think so and in this case, I don't think any of the usual excuses apply and I'm sitting here thinking, "now what?" ... how do we reconcile this one? It wasn't the gun's fault, it wasn't poverty's fault, it wasn't lack of educational/employment opportunities fault. I agree, some people are just no damn good and what you said there about proper guidance is very profound, IMO.



I just don't see how Hayes would ever know Smith and Ceravolo were acquainted and how he would use that as a motive vs Smith. I would have thought had Hayes harbored a grudge, it would be vs Ceravolo more so than Smith ... and they did find a few more guns.



Well, I hope I didn't imply that in making my point that there's gzillions of poor people, uneducated people, unemployed people, et ... that go about their daily business without shooting each other, so maybe we should start focusing on some of the other root causes.



I hear ya bro, and there's a lot you just posted that I agree with ... some, not so much, but I knew we'd eventually get to this point, . I agree this incident (and a lot of others) "just happened" and it just gets harder all the time for me to wrap my head around it. I don't disagree that socioeconomic conditions play a big role in some of these incidents, but when we have situations where socioeconomic roles don't play as big a part, where do we go from there? At that point, when the mitigating factors have been removed or minimized, I think you have to start applying personal responsibility and looking elsewhere for a root cause.

Good point about homicides, which is why I get a miffed at the attention paid to a homicide committed by a cop when, IMO, there's the much larger issue of intraracial, intrafamily/domestic type homicides. I realize organizations like BLM, MoveOn.org are using these incidents as platforms to call attention to socioeconomic & race issues as a whole, but IDK, I'd like to see them apply as much time & effort to some of the Black-on-Black issues as they do the White-on-Black issues, #shrug. I guess one of my questions is, "What is the end-game?". Like you said, it's hard to play 400yrs of catch-up and we'll never get there. So are we to consider the Black community permanent victims? At what point do we acknowledge that there's actually been quite a bit of progress and then try to move on from there? It just seems to me the current civil rights movement can't find a way to build on their successes and so instead remains mired in the past. Just my perspective, #shrug. IDK, I've dealt with this my whole life and just seems like we're going backwards, on all levels, all issues, et ... in all communities. Considering the progress I've seen in civil rights, I'd personally like to see it focus more on a poor-person level vs an ethnic level, but I'm not saying there still aren't issues to address, just maybe change focus/direction a little bit to align with the new millennium.

And I applaud/commend your efforts/goals. I had a neighbor who started a school for nursing assistants, LPN's, phlebotomists and medical type careers that you could get into with just a license and without having to attend a four-year college, et ... I really admired that because she didn't just pay lip service to helping people and/or the community, she actually went out and did it, . One time when I was laid off, she even got me to go through the CNA course, but that's another story, ... and don't think I don't appreciate the "save the culture because no one else will" sentiment, because I do. That's one thing we're all hard-wired to do, look out for our own, but we still have to be considerate of others & that's something everyone could probably work on more, IMO. .



Yes, you can. Seeing as how PTSD is triggered by exposure to traumatic events, growing up da' hood can be pretty traumatic, and it's not unique to Black males, any ethnicity can experience it. You ever wonder why people who have been subjected to years of abuse commit heinous crimes or engage in dangerous behaviors? It's a form of PTSD, they just have to come up with a civilian term for it, #shrug.

Owning a gun to take up arms against the government is a joke in this day and age. You really think its going to end well. It worked in yhe 1700s when you all had muskets but you think it would work today with drones etc

It's funny that reading this thread tells me the same people who think Mr. Payton was wrong in voicing his opinion, a constitutional right by the way, are doing so because he spoke out against another constitutional right, owning guns. Hypocrisy much? LOL.

It's not a disagreement, it's a discussion, and I appreciate your opinions. When you stop talking about stuff is when the problems start, IMO.



I'm just trying to make sense of it all and I do think it's making excuses to some extent, the constant attempt to apply mitigating factors to situations like this vs just applying personal responsibility. It's a mistake we make, IMO, that we don't consider these incidents in a more individual/specific manner. Does growing up poor make you a shooter? Does lack of opportunity remove you from personal responsibility for your actions? I don't think so and in this case, I don't think any of the usual excuses apply and I'm sitting here thinking, "now what?" ... how do we reconcile this one? It wasn't the gun's fault, it wasn't poverty's fault, it wasn't lack of educational/employment opportunities fault. I agree, some people are just no damn good and what you said there about proper guidance is very profound, IMO.



I just don't see how Hayes would ever know Smith and Ceravolo were acquainted and how he would use that as a motive vs Smith. I would have thought had Hayes harbored a grudge, it would be vs Ceravolo more so than Smith ... and they did find a few more guns.



Well, I hope I didn't imply that in making my point that there's gzillions of poor people, uneducated people, unemployed people, et ... that go about their daily business without shooting each other, so maybe we should start focusing on some of the other root causes.



I hear ya bro, and there's a lot you just posted that I agree with ... some, not so much, but I knew we'd eventually get to this point, . I agree this incident (and a lot of others) "just happened" and it just gets harder all the time for me to wrap my head around it. I don't disagree that socioeconomic conditions play a big role in some of these incidents, but when we have situations where socioeconomic roles don't play as big a part, where do we go from there? At that point, when the mitigating factors have been removed or minimized, I think you have to start applying personal responsibility and looking elsewhere for a root cause.

Good point about homicides, which is why I get a miffed at the attention paid to a homicide committed by a cop when, IMO, there's the much larger issue of intraracial, intrafamily/domestic type homicides. I realize organizations like BLM, MoveOn.org are using these incidents as platforms to call attention to socioeconomic & race issues as a whole, but IDK, I'd like to see them apply as much time & effort to some of the Black-on-Black issues as they do the White-on-Black issues, #shrug. I guess one of my questions is, "What is the end-game?". Like you said, it's hard to play 400yrs of catch-up and we'll never get there. So are we to consider the Black community permanent victims? At what point do we acknowledge that there's actually been quite a bit of progress and then try to move on from there? It just seems to me the current civil rights movement can't find a way to build on their successes and so instead remains mired in the past. Just my perspective, #shrug. IDK, I've dealt with this my whole life and just seems like we're going backwards, on all levels, all issues, et ... in all communities. Considering the progress I've seen in civil rights, I'd personally like to see it focus more on a poor-person level vs an ethnic level, but I'm not saying there still aren't issues to address, just maybe change focus/direction a little bit to align with the new millennium.

And I applaud/commend your efforts/goals. I had a neighbor who started a school for nursing assistants, LPN's, phlebotomists and medical type careers that you could get into with just a license and without having to attend a four-year college, et ... I really admired that because she didn't just pay lip service to helping people and/or the community, she actually went out and did it, . One time when I was laid off, she even got me to go through the CNA course, but that's another story, ... and don't think I don't appreciate the "save the culture because no one else will" sentiment, because I do. That's one thing we're all hard-wired to do, look out for our own, but we still have to be considerate of others & that's something everyone could probably work on more, IMO. .



Yes, you can. Seeing as how PTSD is triggered by exposure to traumatic events, growing up da' hood can be pretty traumatic, and it's not unique to Black males, any ethnicity can experience it. You ever wonder why people who have been subjected to years of abuse commit heinous crimes or engage in dangerous behaviors? It's a form of PTSD, they just have to come up with a civilian term for it, #shrug.