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For those of you who are saying that Horn is no Jerry Rice. Here are some stats of both recievers when they were 33 years old. Joe is no Jerry, but you may be surprised to see this.
Jerry Rice 108 catches 1254 yds 11.6 avg 8 tds 20yds+ 11 40yds+ 0 Joe Horn 94 catches 1399 yds 14.9 avg 11 tds 20yds+ 22 40yds+ 4 Looks pretty good to me. I say sign Horn, let him finish his career here or at least give the man the opportunity to show that he can produce good numbers for the next few years. |
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Welcome to the Board J...
Let me assure you.. When the Season gets started..this will be a weekly discussion... One thing will remain constant throughout.... Most of the people will not care what numbers he puts up..the only number they can see is age, how much he affects the salary cap, and how many TD\'s he makes won\'t matter...I\'m not only refering to this board..but, nationwide... |
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Thanks shadow. Like I said, he\'s no Jerry, but he\'s consistantly good every year. How can anyone argue with his stats?
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maybe, just maybe... if he caught some of the passes he should have caught instead of dropping a wide open endzone TD. He\'d have 108 catches. Jerry also produced threw out his career and won some very important games. I like Horn don\'t get me wrong but lets be real, comparing HOrn to Rice is like comparing Brooks to Joe Montana.
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Euph, no truer words..............
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joe horn is the best wo we have ever had he is also currently our best wo
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I wasn\'t saying Joe Horn is Jerry Rice. I was comparing stats related to their age. I know that Jerry is the Man, but Horn is pretty damn good. I was just saying that I believe Horn is capable of producing numbers near or close to last seasons for a few more years.
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You might see the F.O this year get yet again another WR in the 2nd round...
Joe Horn, for all his problems..is the best WR we have... If we had another guy who we knew could be a number 1 guy, it wouldn\'t be much of a problem releasing Horn. Reality is..it is a problem... Stallworth cannot be counted on the take over just yet...maybe after one more good year... Outside of Stallworth, noone even comes close to competing for a Starting job...We just don\'t have the depth to let Horn go..not yet... WR might be a very good early round pick up...We are going to need some help, and soon Would you be amazed to see us get a WR with the 1st pick? How bout a 2nd? You never know...The right guy falls..and we end up getting bpa.. [Edited on 14/3/2005 by shadowdrinker] |
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I agree, Joe deserves the money... But to back up the age argument... How many more 100 catch seasons has rice had?
Answer: 0 How many 10+ TD seasons since 33? once again the answer: 0 That has to be factored in this, hopefully by Joe\'s agent, cause I don\'t want to lose him |
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I agree Frank. But even if JH can produce an 85 to 90 catches a year average over the next 3 years....wouldn\'t that be good enough? Do I know that Joe can do such a thing...no. But I say keep him until he proves otherwise. He hasn\'t shown any signs of slowing down. Harrison and T.O. are considered two of the best in the league, and they are pretty close to Joes age. Like I said, I think you keep a guy around until he shows he is losing gas. You can\'t pull the plug because you think he is getting old. He caught 94 passes last season, doesn\'t look like he is as old as he is made out to be. There is reason to start talking or thinking about some concerns, but until he shows signs of slowing down, pay him the money and keep him around.
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Here\'s one: How many Super Bowls has Joe won? How many has Jerry won? ;)
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C\'mon JKool. Jerry rice made SuperBowls because he had more stars on his team. The Saints have never had a playmaker like Montana. You can\'t compare the fact that JH has never been to a Superbowl, because JH has never played for a team that is near as good as Montana and Co with a D to match.
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Exactly 4saints. Exactly.
Kool, I can see by this statement Quote:
I think it comes down to people blurring the line of GREATEST THE SAINTS HAVE EVER HAD and GREATEST THE NFL HAS EVER HAD. There is a huge gap. How many saints in the NFL hall of fame? When talking about compariing Joe to a Randy Moss or a Marvin Harrison, you are talking about two guys with the most probability of going to the NFL HALL OF FAME than any other receivers currently playing. Sorry, Joe ain\'t on that list. And it\'s unlikely he will have his name added in the next few years. I mean there are discussions AB is the best QB the Saints have ever had. AB!!!! Should we pay him like Peyton Manning cause of the fact he may be the best OUR TEAM has ever had? Hell no, same with Joe. Just cause he breaks records for us(how many playoff games, NFC Champ game appearances, Superbowls do we have as a team in our 38 year history?) doesn\'t mean he should be paid like an NFL elite. |
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Whodi, I knew you\'d like that one buddy. Of course, I don\'t agree with myself, but I thought I\'d get that in there.
You can compare Jerry and Joe. In fact, Joe compares very favorably on some dimensions, but on other dimensions he does not. Jerry is not just hype - he\'s played 20 seasons (or something like that), and was GREAT for like 15 of them. Joe is good, but he isn\'t in contention for \"greatest receiver to ever play the game.\" I\'m in favor of keeping Joe for another 2-3 seasons. This whole \"guys slow down fast at his age\" doesn\'t impress me. We all know that speed is nice, but in football savvy can make a big difference. Joe isn\'t as fast as Donte, Talman, Lewis, etc, but he is open more often (despite drawing better coverage). Remember Eric Martin? How fast was he? It seems to me that Joe can be a first rate player for a few more years. If we\'re not going to pay Joe, who is going to replace him? Certainly not one of the guys on the roster now, given their performance last year. I thought Coles might be an option, but he is gone. I\'m not opposed to trading Joe, trying to get him a middle priced contract, giving him a back loaded contract (he won\'t play the last few years of that contract anyway); football is still a business at the bottom. However, I just don\'t see that we have a lot of options, and I think Joe is a good WR. |
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The convo wasn\'t a matter of options though, the convo was people saying we should pay him like a top 5 receiver simply based on the fact he is the best the SAINTS have ever had and pointing to his stats. I don\'t think we should trade him either, unless we had the chance to get a Coles, Ward, Walker, Andre Johnson or a Mike Williams in the draft. It\'s not like we will be in the Superbowl next year anyway, and Joe\'s numbers haven\'t taken us to the playoffs in the last 4 years. But he ain\'t no spring chicken any longer. He was on the injury report damn near every game last year, though he played through it. But he also knew contract negotiations were coming up. What\'s to say if he gets that contract, the injuries he played through last year keeps him on the sideline so he can insure he still gets his money in the future?
So any option where we get to keep him without giving him a top 5 contract is fine with me. But Joe has said he wants a top 5 contract, and therein lies the problem. Maybe Minnesota will look his way for the #7 pick and we can get Mike Williams. I doubt it though. But if we pay Joe top 5 money, we will regret it. I see more this team stretching Joe out and having him play his last year of his contract and then deciding. Make him prove it one more time. Hell, he will make 4.7 mil this year. I can name plenty better receivers who will make less than that. |
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Agreed.
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They should put a clause in horn\'s contract that makes him donate money to help people with high blood pressure after every false start he gets.
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The argument against Horn here seems to me to be lacking in one key area. Rather than complicate things by using real players (or players at all), I\'ll illustrate it another way.
The argument, so far as I can tell, is why spend money on a Starbucks coffee when you can go to 7-11 and get a coffee and doughnuts for the same price? I mean, coffee is coffee and Starbucks coffee ain\'t that much better than any other coffee. Besides, it\'s the afternoon. That coffees been sitting out. I\'d rather get some fresh brewed gas station coffee on the cheap than some old expensive coffee. If that were where the argument stopped then I might agree. But it isn\'t. You see, in this scenario, the assumption is that by bypassing the Starbucks coffee, the Saints will get the most out of their money by buying multiple valuable other commodities (coffee, a Hubigs pie, and maybe a lotto ticket) at 7-11. My problem with that assumption is that the Saints never seem to go to 7-11. Instead, they hang out on the corner watching other people go into 7-11 and buy Hubigs pies and in the end, they end up spending more than the cost of the Starbucks for a cup full of piss that the bum in the gutter sold them, and a mushy pile of dog crap that someone convinced them was really a sandwich. |
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:D
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So, Who, you agree with me that \"viable replacement\" is relevant to how much we should be willing to pay for Joe?
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Sure... in context.
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i dont see how we can let horn go this year. i do think he has 3 years left not much more. i would like to see us pay the guy with in reason and keep him. we dont have anyone that can take over for him. if we did then we could let him go. but we dont. we need him for at least one more year. problem is he isnt going to sign a one or two year deal. really you cant blame the guy either. but hopefully we can sign him to a three year deal and be on with it. i dont want to see him retire anywhere else
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My point was... production slips...
age does matter, the numbers say so. Take the NE example and let\'s let Joe play through 2005 then let him go. Cap means more in today;s NFL Deuce is another one. I know this is not popular here, but Ricky W was our starting tailback the year we won a playoff game. Just food for thought |
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if joe\'s catches would continue to paralell rice\'s with age we would expect this number of catches in the coming years-
2005- 6 2006- 71 2007- 58 |
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Joe Horn simply isn\'t a big play guy. When Joe catches the ball, he usually gets tackled where ever he is standing.
ANYONE disagree with that? WhoDat? ANYBODY? |
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Geez it isn\'t like the guy is 6\'3\'\' or 6\'4\'\'....he\'s an average sized reciever who\'s in his early 30s.
I think that you guys won\'t be happy with any reciever we get if you aren\'t happy with Horn. Sure he\'s not a big play reciever, but how many guys are??? He is a consistent reciever that has performed at a high level over the past 4 years, and is the sole reason that Bubblehead Brooks has maintained an ounce of legitimacy. |
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Depends what you mean by big-play.
Third and 13, game on the line, my money is on Horn making that catch. |
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28 40+ yard catches. Longs of 73, 52, 65, 59, and 63 as a Saint. 52 TDs. Yeah, Joe knows nothing about making big plays. I\'d be willing to bet that Joe Horn has been involved in 50% of the game changing big plays in the Saints favor over the last two or three seasons at least. Think about it. When the Saints are down (97% of the time), and they come back (45% of the time), who is the guy who is always making the play? Joe Horn. People point to a single dropped pass in the TB game. Sure, he\'s dropped some passes - every single WR in the NFL has. The argument now is that Joe Horn\'s YAC is low and therefore he isn\'t a great WR??? Joe Montana threw a lot of very short completions, and his yards per attempt were low - therefore, he was never a top 5 QB. But hey, let\'s let Joe, Deuce, and Howard leave through fee agency. We\'ve got more pressing and important players to sign to long-term deals - guys like Bentley and McKenzie, who are clearly the heart and sole of this team. :casstet: Like Danno said, with the game on the line, the Saints simply have no better option than Joe Horn. [Edited on 15/3/2005 by WhoDat] |
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I know we, being Saints fans, have plenty to gripe about. However I am not too concerned with Joe Horn\'s production right now. I would much rather see us take a LB, DT, or even OT before we\'d think about trading up to get a WR. Yeah he has about 2 or 3 good years left, and that gives us enough time to address our other positions of need before Joe retires or is cut. There are many many good WRs coming out in the next 2 to 3 years(Craphonso Thorpe, Steve Smith, Xavier Carter) to worry about getting a new starting WR just yet.
Now if Mike Williams was to fall to 16, I don\'t see how you pass him up. |
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I\'m not going to say that Horn is without flaws. The cell phone thing following the TB drop the week before made me really mad. It seemed like it was more about Joe than letting the team down with a crucial drop.
I don\'t know that he is top 5...but I would say that he\'s easily in the top 10. He has been our go to reciever and has made AB look alot better. I like Horn and would like to see him here for a couple of more years. Plus, he said he wants to retire in my hometown (Hattiesburg). I gotta like that. One thing that people heve left out in this thread is Horn\'s toughness. I can tolerate some of his BS simply because he always peels himself off the turf and makes another play. There are plenty of bigtime guys who lack toughness. A couple of dumb things were said in this thread. Gumbo, you amaze me. Horn is not a big play receiver? Did you see the game clincher against Dallas? Killer grab. What about the long one against Carolina? That was the only time I saw Brooks hit him in stride all year. One of the things that you must bear in mind when talking about YAC is the QB\'s ability to set a receiver up to run. Your boy Brooks hasn\'t figured that one out yet. Between throwing into triple coverage, over people\'s heads and behind the receivers, there\'s not much room for YAC. It\' s enough to just catch some of those balls. When do you see YAC on this team? On screens to Donte if he happens to beat the corner, that\'s about it. Also, this quote is awesome: Quote:
Since everybody is bringing up history and age, look at Deuce\'s age. The next couple of years will be his best in the league, barring serious injury. You take Ricky, I\'ll take Duece. I can\'t believe you would even bring him up in this context. He\'s out ditching his kids \"finding himself\" and letting his team mates down. Go grab yourself a jersey on ebay, buddy. I think they\'re going pretty cheap. |
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The problem is, we don\'t have Joe signed for 2 or 3 more years, we have him signed for one. So if he doesn\'t get his top 5 deal, he could play out this year and sign elsewhere next year. or force us to franchise him. Trade him now before that happens. How does that prevent us from getting a LB or DT or OT in the draft I don\'t know. You would be trading Joe for a replacement FOR JOE, not simply trading up to draft a WR.
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The idea is good in theory, except that they aren\'t going to trade Joe at all.
The thing is other teams know how old he is as well. He won\'t attract much in a trade offer, certainly not the value that the Saints would be seeking. I think either one of two things will happen. 1. He\'ll have an off year and resign with the Saints for less or 2. He\'ll have a typical Joe Horn year, test the free agent market, get lowballed by all interested teams and sign with someone else just to save face. Just think...if a physical specimen like Plaxico Burress can\'t sign with someone, Horn must know that he won\'t get top 5 money on the open market, so he\'s trying to get it here. You can\'t get mad at him for trying. |
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I am not mad at him for trying, I am mad cause people think we should pay him a big contract. 49ers let Montana roll when he got too old, but we should keep Joe Horn. Pats cut Milloy but we should keep Joe Horn. Troy Brown played both sides of the ball for the Pats and gave up incentives he would have earned as a receiver to do so, Pats cut him, but we should keep Joe Horn. It\'s like this is Madden football on PS2 or something where you can cheat the game and keep all the players you want, and they play at a high level until they are 40 and then just retire. Doesn\'t happen in real life.
Also, I don\'t trust the Joe will play out this year theory. I don\'t trust Joe not to hold out knowing this is his last shot at a big payday, and knowing all the talks he has had about his contract recently. I guess that\'s why I am so skeptical. I don\'t trust Joe not to try and screw the team over. He has played injured previously but if he gets hurt this year without a new contract, this could be it. I don\'t trust Joe not to see that and make a stink if he doesn\'t have a new contract. I guess some do. Not me. NFL players are selfish, and they have every right to be, and teams have every right to protect themselves from that. I would trade Joe and get his replacement right now, Minnesota just seemed like the obvious choice. But the same people who wanna keep Joe wanna keep Howard AND have us with money to sign draft picks. I wanna see how well that all works. [Edited on 15/3/2005 by saintswhodi] |
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Well I think Joe will play this year out. It works to his disadvantage if he holds out, because of his age. The best thing he could do for himself is to have another pro bowl year.
Like I said...if we have a chance to get Mike Williams without giving too much up or if he falls to us I say go for it. |
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I would believe that, except Keenan McCardell held out on the Bucs last year, and he is older than Joe and not as good. He held out til he was traded. I don\'t want Joe to put us in the same boat.
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Hey - why don\'t we just sign A. Smith at RB and Jurevicus at WR and get rid of Horn and Deuce? After all, Horn wants to be a Falcon and I have it on good authority that Deuce is a bunny-killing Communist. :casstet:
Man, it\'s really a shame that we as Saints fans will have to put up with Deuce and Horn next season. Won\'t that be frustrating for all of you guys to watch them both go to the Pro Bowl again? That sucks. [Edited on 15/3/2005 by WhoDat] |
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Someone mentioned Deuce in this JOE HORN thread? Diversion tactic perhaps? Hey if you don\'t mind seeing Horn leave, you must wanna see Deuce leave too. Never mind the fact your main grievance with paying Horn is it will cause problems in getting a long term contract done FOR DEUCE. Nice try. :o
And Deuce went to the pro bowl last year? Must\'ve missed him and Howard. :P |
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