Who is the new BnG dealer?
 

Hey, when did crack become a free gift to all members when they sign up for a new account at BnG?

I don't know, maybe I'm just crazy, but I can't understand how people can appear disappointed at the prospect of having Darren Howard, Joe Horn, and Deuce McAllister on our team next season.

Hey, who are the only active Saints players to have made the Pro Bowl at non-special teams positions? Howard, Horn, and McAllister. Who are the three best players on the team right now? Howard, Horn, and McAllister.

Ah crap - you mean we might have to put up with these great players next season!?! Stupid Saints!

[Edited on 15/3/2005 by WhoDat]

Who is the new BnG dealer?
 

I guess some people are unaware the NFL instituted a salary cap a few years back. Welcome to the 21st century Rip Van Winkle, sorry to wake you. :o

Who is the new BnG dealer?
 

Let\'s see if any other NFL teams are \"stupid\" and allow pro bowlers to get away. Joe Montana, Ken Norton Jr., Deion Sanders, Charles Haley, Jevon Kearse, Champ Bailey, Ted Washington, Terrell Owens, Hugh Douglas, Troy Vincent, Bobby Taylor, Bertrand Berry, Lawyer Milloy to name a few. Man that crack must get around a lot.

Who is the new BnG dealer?
 

nashville is the addict capital...
eddie george their alltime leading rusher, derrick mason the leading receiver in the nfl last year, samari rolle a pro bowl cornerback, their kicker Nedney, their starting right tackle Miller, their starting fullback Holcombe, an impact defensive lineman Kevin Carter.
Oops, they didn\'t let them get away like the early addiction to crack allows, they were forced to when going into cap rehab this year. You can find plenty of TN articles how they wish they could get out from under having McNair now too. 5-11 last year with a great (but injury prone and aging) QB. Is he what they need in the rebuilding process? It\'s a hard habit to kick though.

Who is the new BnG dealer?
 

Hey Kelley, how do pro bowlers like Edge James and Shaun Alexander and Trever Pryce and Orlando Pace get allowed to seek trades? For less than 1st round picks even? Man this cap thing sure is some confusing. Teams can\'t just keep everybody???? No way!!!

Who is the new BnG dealer?
 

denver did prety well for a few years. got a superbowl out of it before the league figured it out and only cost them some cash and a 2nd rd pick i think. jerry jones did well too giving deion sanders a $178K salary and a $13mil bonus to avoid the cap. LOL thus the nfl instituted the deion rule where bonuses cannot ecceed the salary prorated. jones is still a rcovering addict. but when i think of him, the denver organizations creative cheating, or even al davis... you might dislike their personality or style but one thing is never doubted by even their detractors... their desire to win. at all costs, however it can be done, win. but i digress...

Who is the new BnG dealer?
 

Its not that we do not want these players -- its that many of us realize that keeping them may not be in the best interests of the team short or long termed. Example if we keep Howard we take a beating on the cap situation for a position we are loaded at. If not we could use the freed up cap money from Howard to fill a position we are not loaded with talent at -- say Linebacker -- As for Horn -- no one really wants to get rid of Horn but if he really expects a signing bonus in the likes of Harrisson and Owens then I say see ya -- cause we cannot afford that much money on a player that probably has 2-3 good years left before he is an average receiver. Take a look at the big picture and you will see what many of us are thinking

Who is the new BnG dealer?
 

Not sure, WhoDat, I\'m just glad you\'re not the GM.





:rollinglaugh:

Who is the new BnG dealer?
 

Yea, I think he is the GM for the Titans!

Who is the new BnG dealer?
 

Well guys, I\'ve got bad news for you. The Saints WILL retain Joe Horn. They are going to pay him a lot to stay here. They may trade Howard, but Deuce is going to get a huge contract also. I\'m sure you\'ll all feel much better when Horn, McAllister, McKenzie, and Bentley have big contracts.

Just so long as Joe Horn makes top 7 money instead of top 5.

Who is the new BnG dealer?
 

Well top 7-10 is fair because there are at least 6 WR\'s I would rather have on my team.

Who is the new BnG dealer?
 

Just 6? lol

Who is the new BnG dealer?
 

Hey Whodat, I\'m very sad I missed out on the crack, when was that being offered and can a brother get a lil bit.

Who is the new BnG dealer?
 

Don\'t ask me, I missed that boat too. Try Whoodi. :)

Who is the new BnG dealer?
 

You only get crack with common sense. Sorry Who, the boat sailed without you. :P

Who is the new BnG dealer?
 

Hasbeen at the helm with his make shift Brooks pampering offensive coordinator , should make us all question their talent levels ......

Three cheers to the Saints PR department though , those guys could sell tickets to a second sinking of the SS Titanic .... ;)

[Edited on 16/3/2005 by saintz08]

Who is the new BnG dealer?
 

I think Whodat is just saying that it\'s not a terrible thing to keep those players. It\'s not going to hurt the team. I would like to keep Horn and LeCharles and Duece. The Saints will probably work the contracts this offseason...I hope. As far as Howard goes. I think hes a great player, but for the money he wants and the players we need, he can\'t stay. Smith and Grant are a good tandum. I don\'t think it\'s bad to keep Howard if a trade can\'t be done, however, I think it would be better for the overall team if we could get a good LB or some picks for him.

Who is the new BnG dealer?
 

excuse me for questioning your reasoning normand but maybe that is the sort of dichotomy that is necessary to be a saints fan...

positive-
negative-
positive-
if there was no smith or grant it would be no issue. $8+mil is too much but he would be da man and earn his pay. if he would be $2-4mil the 3 stud de rotation would even be viable. spending 10% on your entire team payroll on a non-fulltime player is no way to win in today\'s nfl cap environment. it is flat out he has got to go. i think it would be more prudent to take a 3rd rd pick than keep him. i think other teams know this too. this is their leverage in negotiating. they all want to go lowball but still want him too.

i always find myself referring to the pats on these cap issues, they are the first true dynasty of the cap era. i believe their cap management has been as great or greater key to success as the on the field performance. there are many examples with them but just this off season they released wr troy brown (how much more of a gamer-team player and performer could ya ask for?) and other wr david patten (18 ypc), and wr david givens is out there as a RFA. that leaves deion branch (35rec) and bethel johnson (10rec). how can a team let these guys go?! they were vital cogs the past few years and surely earned their pay. it is because what they produce/contribute could no longer justify what their evolving market value had become. this same reasoning carries over perhaps more succinctly into the joe horn longterm contract debates.

the oldtime cowboy/raider/49er pre-cap dynasties are a thing of the past. it is no longer simply which team that has the most talent wins most consistently. it is which team that can get the most talent onto the field for $85million. of course, you have to have the coaching to get the performance out of that talent too. that is another whole snag with this organization. i will add as much as i believe moving howard is a must-do philosophically i have little faith that this fo will use that cap cash in the best way to facilitate the team winning now. they will use some for deuce-horn-bentley contracts. i would not be surprised if again on opening day (as $11mil last year) the saints are more under the cap than any other team. it is just the nature of an owner who is money-first (the head of the nfl finance committee) and a gm who comes from bean counting not football talent evaluating.

there, now for cup-o-java #2

Who is the new BnG dealer?
 

What\'s the downside of keeping Howard for this year only?
a) He ties up 8 million in cap money, which the Saints may or may not use if he is traded.
b) He wasn\'t traded for a LB.
c) He wasn\'t traded for a 3rd round pick.

Did the front office try to trade him for a linebacker?
I believe so. I would prefer a trade, but if you can\'t get a fair deal, do what\'s best for the team - and that may just be to keep Howard and try to trade him again next year.

That being said, I would still be shocked to see Howard in a Saints uniform this season. 7.8 million dollars, cap or not, is a lot of Benson\'s money.

Agreeing to deals with Bentley and McAllister has to be the priority before next season. \"I pity the fool\" who has to negotiate with Horn\'s agent and I seriously doubt he will stay in New Orleans.

Who is the new BnG dealer?
 

Someone mentions crack and nobody can deliver, I\'m very disappointed. Well maybe next year during open enrollment.

:popcorn: I got the munchies Dude, a brother had to replace the crack.

Who is the new BnG dealer?
 

Being modest to prove a point. Prolly bout 10 though

Who is the new BnG dealer?
 

WRONG. The Pats aren\'t a dynasty b/c of their cap management. They are a dynasty b/c of their talent evaluation. They can continually find underrated or journeymen players and \"coach them up\" to overacheive and play great as role players in a system.

On the contrary, and despite early indications, the Saints have proven to be pretty bad at evaluating talent, bringing in the right players, and demonstrating that they even have a system, let alone use players well in them.

My point isn\'t that Howard should be kept at any cost. It never has been despite what Whodi and Billy will tell you. It is simply that Darren Howard is a damn good player at a position that is of great value in the NFL, IMO. Will Smith is still a relative unknown. Maybe he was a flash in the pan, it\'s happened before. Most Saints fans don\'t want to even consider that proposition. They\'re all quite sure he\'ll be a Pro Bowler in a year or two. Nor does anyone want to consider that injuries happen. Grant and Whitehead is far less sexy, isn\'t it?

The point is simple. If the Saints can get Dat Nguyen and a 2nd for Howard, GREAT! If they can get a proven LB somewhere else, great! If they get a 2nd rounder for him, what does that do realistically? The rumors are that the Saints like Smith at QB in the first and Webster at CB in the second. MAYBE they use another 2nd on a LB - and we have a rookie and two sophomores starting at LB - that\'s the huge upgrade for Howard? What if they don\'t draft a LB in the first 2 rounds - a VERY REALISTIC POSSIBILITY - as they have proven for the last 3 years in a row. Then you take a huge strength (DE), and give it away for what? No, I\'ll take a great pass rush next season over a QB who won\'t see the field, a nickel CB and maybe a LB who will play like Watson and Buckwoldt.

Who is the new BnG dealer?
 

Send Howard and Brooks to Frisco for the no.1 overall pick ..... ;)

McCarthy gets to run the offense with someone familiar .... :xxrotflmao:

[Edited on 17/3/2005 by saintz08]

Who is the new BnG dealer?
 

who, my reference to the pats cap management was intended to be the front office overall (vs. the onfield performance). talent evaluation intertwined with cap management is the essence of what they do. yes, they do go after the right players. even that though i would empasize right players at the right price. likewise and in conjunction with that, they let go of any player, regardles of performance, service time, etc. when they will no longer be at the right price. you say howard should not be kept at any price. if $8million is reasonable for a one of three defensive ends rotation to you, could you say what price is too much then? $10million? $12? $16? i am in agreement with you as i pointed out my own lack of faith that even if they do the right thing moving howard, i still have little faith they will make the right moves to make use of that $8million cap room. even so, i cannot say do not do step A of improvement because i think you may not do step B right.

as for as draft pick guesses, that is another discussion.

Who is the new BnG dealer?
 

WhoDat has a good point, but then he gets off in neverland.

The good point WhoDat makes is that Joe Horn is a proven #1 receiver and it would be hard to replace him and still get the same production year in and year out.

However, there\'s a big drop off in talent from Joe Horn when compared to some of the elite receivers in the NFL. Like Marvin Harrison or Terrell Owens. Joe Horn simply isn\'t in that class. All stats aside, Joe Horn doesn\'t deserve top 5 pay at his position.

Also, Joe\'s age must be taken into consideration. At some point Joe\'s prodution will slip dramatically due to his age. That\'s a fact. Joe is in that age range where it becomes more and more of a concern. Simply put, Joe\'s best days are probably behind him. Not saying he\'s washed up just yet .. and he might have a couple of very productive years left. I wouldn\'t go signing him to a 5 or 6 year deal though. Unless it was cap friendly.

On Darren Howard. He\'s a good player. But the problem is, we really don\'t need him. And for the money he costs, it would be better spent on \"key\" areas of need. Such as LB.

Darren\'s role has changed since the drafting of Will Smith. Howard is now a \"specialty\" player and it\'s a luxary more than anything else.

Keeping Darren Howard is only putting off the inevitable. With the needs left on defense ... Keeping Howard would be the wrong move, IMHO.

Who is the new BnG dealer?
 

I never though i\'d see the day where i\'d agree with Gumbo. Especially against Who, but here it is. Bring your umbrellas, fire and brimstone are coming down. On to the discussion at hand: Who says this: Good Who. We agree. Why are we arguing? Like Kelley said, the cost now is 8 mil for ONE YEAR TO BE IN A ROTATION. Is that any cost? He also wants a 16 mil bonus and a bigger contract than Wistrom\'s for a long term deal. Is that ANY cost? How much would WhoDat pay for a player who has slipped into a rotational mode? I guess 8 mil seems like a good price to pay to a specialist. Ooh boy, that\'ll get us to the Superbowl.So then what, we franchise him AGAIN next year at over 9 mil and try to trade him? Good plan.


Let\'s substitute this with, maybe Howard will get hurt for 8 mil for a year. It\'s happened before. Th elast 2 years as a matter of fact. Good plan.


So in essence, I really don\'t care if we try to get better for BEYOND just next season cause if we lead the league in sacks that should guarantee us a Superbowl ring, you\'ll all see I am right and I will be LMAO!!!! :o

Who is the new BnG dealer?
 

My umbrella is open.. ;)

For the life of me, I just can\'t figure out where WhoDat is coming from on these issues.

First, Darren Howard isn\'t an elite defensive end. Plus, Will Smith is a first round draft pick who showed a lot of promise. Why the hell not play Will Smith? What does WhoDat want to do before we get rid of Howard? Does he want us to get a proven DE like Siemon Rice before he\'ll be happy?

And like saintwhodi said, Howard is costing us a fortune to be a \"role\" player. How many teams have 3 TE that cost so much? And how many of them have a big need for LB like the Saints?

It\'s a no-brainer. Howard is a luxary we cannot afford. The ONLY way we keep Howard is if we can\'t get a trade of equal value. Or close to it. The team simply has too many needs to invest that kind of money in Darren Howard.

And who here thinks Joe Horn deserves to be paid like Marvin Harrison. Because that who Joe said he wants to be paid like. That\'s a FACT.

Who is the new BnG dealer?
 

Despite limited playing time, Will had 40 tackles and 7.5 sacks. Howard, on the other hand, had 46 tackles and 11 sacks - and started all the games except the 3 he missed.

While I\'ve got to disagree with Billy, I DO think that Howard is among the elite ends, consider this: Grant had 78 tackles and 10.5 sacks and costs less than half of what Howard will cost!

8 million dollars to go throught this again next year, when we have Smith who is nearly equivalent to Howard and Grant who is better at half the price? No thanks.

Consider the Joe Horn dispute: one main question about paying Joe is who is going to replace him. We might be willing to shell out more if there is no quality player to step up. In the Howard case, we know who the guy who will replace him is, and we\'ve seen that guy play... his name is Will Smith.

Finally, we should deal Howard now before he gets hurt again next year, has a year of sh-ty production, or gets one year older. His value is unlikely to be more than it is now (in fact, he is coming off the best year of his career, statistically speaking), ever! Of course, I agree with Who on this: it depends what we\'re going to get for him. A measly second on its own? Yikes. How about Dat and a second? Yes, please.

My umbrella was incinerated.

Who is the new BnG dealer?
 

This is the root of the dispute. Some people would rather pay a very talented WR (e.g. Donte Stallworth) than a very productive one (Joe Horn). I\'ll take on-field production over potential every day of the week.

Some will argue this, but there\'s really no dispute. Saying that Joe Horn doesn\'t have the talent that Moss and T.O. have can only be justified by things like 40 times and bench presses. A severe differentiation cannot be made based on their STATS (that is WHAT THEY ACTUALLY DID ON THE FIELD), b/c Horn\'s numbers are comparable in every respect.

Hey guys - three offseasons ago the Atlanta Falcons signed a WR with a lot more raw talent than Joe Horn. How\'d that work out for them? Hey, three offseasons ago the Saints drafted a WR with a lot more talent than Horn. How has that worked out?

Who has more physical talent? Aaron Brooks or Tom Brady? Who is a better QB?

If you guys think that talent is more important than production, fine, feel that way. I think that making moves that way is a recipe for disaster.

One last note - there are a lot of people on this board, myself included, who are enamored with the Patriots\' secret to success. They do it by putting guys on the field who are not the MOST TALENTED, but who are the MOST PRODUCTIVE.

You say Joe Horn isn\'t a top 5 talent - I agree. That makes him even more valuable to me. You keep guys who OVERACHIEVE - especially on a team full of underachievers.

Who is the new BnG dealer?
 

But you don\'t pay them top 5 money. :o

Who is the new BnG dealer?
 

But top 7 is OK?

Who do you pay top 5 money to? Guys with top 5 talent? David Boston\'s agent is doing him right then. LOL.

Who is the new BnG dealer?
 

WhoDat --

Surly you don\'t think Joe Horn is in the same class as Marvin Harrison? Based on what? STATS?!

Hey, I love stats. But, I\'m not ignorant. I\'ve watched Marvin make catches that Joe Horn never made on his best day. I\'ve watched Marvin out-run CBs for a TD where Joe would have gotten tackled for a 10-yard gain.

Joe Horn has overachieved considering where he started at in his career. But, so what? That\'s not the point.

The point is Joe Horn wants to be paid like Marvin Harrison. When Joe becomes a \"game-changing\" receiver like Marin, then that\'s when he deserves to be paid like him. That aint never gonna happen.

Also, Joe doesn\'t command the attention that a Marvin Harrison or a Terrell Owens does. Those guys draw double teams and make the receivers around them better. Does Joe Horn do that? If you\'re honest ... the answer would be NO!

Who is the new BnG dealer?
 

Who would pay Joe top 7 money? I wouldn\'t pay him top 15 money. It would be all incentives with a decent bonus. That\'s it. Suck it up Joe or see what the open market brings you. You aren\'t irreplaceable, well except to WhoDat. The Vikes can trade Randy Moss, the best receiver of this era, in his prime, but Joe Horn should be considered untouchable. THAT is unreal. :casstet:

Who is the new BnG dealer?
 

Really? When? I\'ve seen Horn make TD catches on one bad leg, jumping up because AB can\'t hit his receiver in stride, and have his legs knocked out from under him by the defender, and manage to still hold onto the ball and score the touchdown.

Harrison has a QB that makes catching the ball in stride a helluvalot easier than Horn\'s ever had. So I wouldn\'t doubt this at all.

Actually, I\'ll be honest, with the answer being \"yes\". You can be blind as a bat, and still hear the announcers talking about Horn being under double coverage. Stallworth thanks God above that he\'s lining up across from Horn, cause it makes him that much better a receiver. But Horn\'s still the #1 guy on this team.

Memories fade, but I am completely baffled by your entire post. Weed must be readily available down in the gulf coast.


[Edited on 17/3/2005 by BlackandBlue]

Who is the new BnG dealer?
 

BlackandBlue --

Yeah, but our Gulf Coast weed must not be nearly as good as that stuff in Dallas. Cause, you\'re out of your freakin\' mind if you think Joe Horn is anywhere close to Marvin Harrison.

You and WhoDat smokin\' the same stuff, B&B? Lay off the weed, guys! :o

Who is the new BnG dealer?
 

And I moved to Dallas...go figure. :realmad:

Who is the new BnG dealer?
 

Can you count how many Colts games you\'ve seen on more than one hand?

Hmm, maybe I should be asking how many Saints games you\'ve watched.

BTW, congrats to you Gumbo at finding yet another topic that will get under other members skin. Regardless of whether or not you truly believe your statements, way to stick it to the man! :thumbsup:


[Edited on 17/3/2005 by BlackandBlue]

Who is the new BnG dealer?
 

You FINALLY take a stand on SOMETHING. And when you do .. you try to say Horn is as good as Marvin Harrison.

PLEASE !! Marvin has a good chance to make the hall of fame. Wonder if ol\' Joe Horn does?

Just stop while you\'re not too far behind, BlackandBlue. :casstet:

Who is the new BnG dealer?
 

I point to stats and numbers.
B&B uses anecdotal evidence.

Billy says nuh-uh!

Tough call.

But Billy is right about one thing. Marvin Harrison has produced better results than any WR in the league over the past 6 seasons. He deserves the contract he just got. Joe Horn hasn\'t produced that well. He\'s produced the FIFTH best numbers. Marvin, at the same age as Joe, just got a 7 year 67 million dollar contract. Good point Billy, you\'re really debunking this whole argument by pointing to WRs who got huge contracts at the same age as Joe who have a diminishing role on their teams and whose production is in the same ball park as Horn\'s.

Who is the new BnG dealer?
 

Hey, I\'m not going to get caught up in your foolishness.

I REALLY don\'t care if you think Joe Horn deserves to be paid in the top 5 range for receivers.

You\'re entitled to your opinion. So, is B&B. Are you two guys lovers or something? LMAO!! It\'s like when I battle one of you the other is never far behind .. LOL