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Re: You're Sean Payton

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Originally Posted by AsylumGuido (Post 733192)

LOL!!

"easily replaced in a trade"

Where did you get that idea? Trading is extremely difficult in the NFL when dealing with player salaries and that is IF you can even find a willing trade partner with something you would want in trade.

But, since Allen isn't going anywhere you can come up with all the fantasy scenarios you want. If you can pretend the Saints could and would pick up Phillips I guess you can also pretend that it could be made to work instead of being yet another disaster that comes from that revolving door at DC as was mentioned earlier.

:clown:

No, it's more like you always saying we don't have the people to run a 3-4 when we do and never answering the question to justify your post on this particular subject. I see your better with the cap numbers than your judgement of players and schemes and that's not fantasy.

Re: You're Sean Payton

Quote:

Originally Posted by halloween 65 (Post 733194)

No, you are assuming that players can easily slide into the quite different duties of the 3-4 with no problem. Yes, there is a handful of players that have played in a 3-4, but our better players either haven't, or have shown that they struggle when they attempted the scheme. Your answer, get rid of those better players and plug everyone else in. And you base it all upon Wade Phillips being able to pull this off starting day one.

Well, there isn't going to be a Wade Phillips so it ain't going to happen, Brother. We won't have the chance to see if it is yet anther total disaster due to once again changing defensive schemes in mid-step or a miraculous transformation with our leftover players and whomever else we can scrape together to field a squad for King Phillips.

Re: You're Sean Payton

A good example of why changing schemes is a bad idea, watch the Browns next year. They booted there 3-4 DC and brought in Greg Williams and his base 4-3. The Browns have a million draft picks and they are still gonna be the laugh of the league because of choices like that.

Re: You're Sean Payton

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Originally Posted by CharityMike (Post 733200)

The Browns are going to suck next year because they are the Browns, and when you are the Browns, you suck, because that's what Browns do.

You pick Johnny Football in the first round...you've got bigger problems than what D to run.

Re: You're Sean Payton

Whenever you get down as a Who-Dat just thank your stars you don't hang your hat in the Dawg Pound.

Re: You're Sean Payton

Quote:

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido (Post 733193)

First of all, as halloween pointed out, our two, and perhaps as many as our FOUR best defensive players are not 3-4 type players. As he mentioned, we would have to get rid of Cam Jordan and Kenny Vacarro and not retain Fairley. He also assumes that Rankins, who looked like a stud in the 4-3, could seamlessly convert to a NT. He would be wasted at that position.

Now, as for the last few years, in 2012, Coach Spagnuolo attempted to pigeon hole players that were primarily 3-4 players into his strict 4-3. It was a disaster. In comes Rob Ryan in 2013. As he had done previously at Dallas, he introduced a stripped down version of his 3-4. There was enough 3-4 personnel to make it work that first year. In 2014 he fully implemented his defense which to say it is complex is an understatement. The defense looked lost. Some of the players were still more suited to a 4-3, such as Jordan. In 2015 Payton saw that the Ryan experiment wasn't working and brought in Allen. Allen quickly started using players to their strengths. This past season you know what happened with the injuries. Allen is flexible in his scheming, not like Phillips who is strictly a 3-4 coach.

That's great and all, but still none of it addresses MY point, that this defense has been historically bad for too long, whether it is a 4-3, 3-4, 2-3-2, 1-1-1-1-1-1-1, whatever, that it may take someone who really knows what he's doing to figure out what can be done with what the Saints got.

Also, stop making statements like "Allen is flexible, Phillips is strictly 3-4". Please...

And don't tell me what happened 2013-2014. I saw the games. Ryan's system wasn't complex; on the contrary, his system was so simple, he got figured out, just like he's gotten figured out the next season everywhere he's been.

Re: You're Sean Payton

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Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper (Post 733232)

Sorry, but YOU are wrong.

This ...

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A source within the Saints organization said most of the sideline issues revolved around Ryan's calls coming in late or the wrong defense being called. The source, who was granted anonymity to speak freely of the situation, said that happened "at least 40 or 50 times this year."

"It was awful," the source added.

...

It drove Payton crazy that Ryan's defenses turned into a whirlwind of chaos and confusion, plagued by misalignments and personnel issues due to Ryan's penchant for mass substitution packages.

"There were a few things that you looked at from a year ago and you said, 'We can't have X number of snaps with not the right number of guys on the field. We can't burn timeouts, you know, every other week because we can't get the right personnel on the field.' We just can't do that," Payton said Wednesday. "We can't have guys looking left and right at the snap of the ball. There's a game last season where the first eight plays of the game, we're misaligned and we don't even cover down the right way. Those were just facts."

Schemed to Death: Rob Ryan's Defense

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Rob Ryan runs a multiple scheme that is complex in nature, and heavy on personnel groupings.

Dallas Cowboys fired Rob Ryan for too many schemes

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Cowboys executive vice president Stephen Jones clarified this week that Ryan was dismissed for a mass defensive confusion caused by too many schemes.

"We felt like too many schemes can cause problems regardless of how good they are and how sound they are," Jones said, according to The Dallas Morning News. "If there is more than the players can digest in this day and time -- as you don't keep players for long, they move on and you have injuries."

It's a fair point. Ryan is known for mixing up concepts and deploying his personnel in creative ways. His defense worked well at full capacity, only to give way to communication breakdowns when inexperienced players were forced into the lineup. It certainly didn't help that Ryan lost five starters and two role players during the 2012 season.

I have no idea where you got the idea that Ryan's scheme was simple and "got figured out"? Hell, his own players have had a problem figuring it out wherever he has landed. Why do think his defenses constantly get called for 12 men on the field or only have 10 players out there? It is common knowledge about the complexity of the scheme. He dumbed it WAY down in the first year, 2013. The defense actually had quite a bit of success if you remember right? Fourth ranked in total defense. First in rushing defense. 19th in passing defense. Then in 2014 Ryan fully opened up his playbook and the ****, as usual, hit the fan.

And Allen HAS been very flexible using what he has available to their strengths. Once again, common knowledge.

Re: You're Sean Payton

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Originally Posted by AsylumGuido (Post 733239)

Sorry, but YOU are wrong.
... argumentum ad verecundiam links snipped...

Quote:

And Allen HAS been very flexible using what he has available to their strengths. Once again, common knowledge.

Of course. No one else does that. Well, maybe 1 or 2 others, but surely not Wade Phillips, no Sir!

I get it. You feel the need to defend Allen. And who knows, Allen may turn out to be the next Bill Belichick.

However, the point still stands: the Saints have 2-3 more years with one of the best QBs in the history of the NFL. Do you at least take a shot at luring one of the best DCs around, who is currently not signed, with a proven track record spawning several years on different teams, or do you go with the unproven commodity?

Personally, I'd at least try to get the proven commodity in here. If he tells me "no thanks" or "it'd take me a couple years to get the players I need", ok, then...

Re: You're Sean Payton

'.......to discover in the end, he's been taken by the shills"

Re: You're Sean Payton

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper (Post 733243)

Of course, of course. Look, you can post all the links to "what sources said" pieces all you want, sprinkled with your own suppositions (which apparently you can do, but you don't like others doing). All you got is a few reporters regurgitating what the son of Jerry Jones (whatever his name is) said about why the Cowboys fired Ryan. Unless "complex" is used to team "undisciplined, and overall not sound".

Of course. No one else does that. Well, maybe 1 or 2 others, but surely not Wade Phillips, no Sir!

I get it. You feel the need to defend Allen. And who knows, Allen may turn out to be the next Bill Belichick.

However, the point still stands: the Saints have 2-3 more years with one of the best QBs in the history of the NFL. Do you at least take a shot at luring one of the best DCs around, who is currently not signed, with a proven track record spawning several years on different teams, or do you go with the unproven commodity?

Personally, I'd at least try to get the proven commodity in here. If he tells me "no thanks" or "it'd take me a couple years to get the players I need", ok, then...

The fact is, like it or not, Allen isn't going anywhere this years Like it or not, THAT is the point.

And I'm not regurgitating what a reporter is saying. Some of those quotes were from Payton himself. Anyone that isn't blind could see the confusion out there during 2014 and the first half of 2015. The substitution scheme was so complex that the players, and their positional coaches, couldn't keep up with it. The exact same thing happened in Dallas. That is a fact whether you admit it or not. The same thing was happening in Buffalo this season. I saw it happening there. I watched quite a few Buffalo games this season because of fantasy players on both my teams and my wife's team. There were a number of occasions with 10 or 12 players out there on defense. That is due to the complexity of the scheme. Plain as day.