Saints and filling needs.

JKool · 03-23-2005, 10:11 AM

Why not?

This is one of those cases where, the best inference is this:

Team A has made improvements a, b, and c.
Team A was bad at x and y last season.
If a, b, and c, improve one or both of x and y, they should be better this sesason.
Therefore,
Team A will be better this season.

Whether or not that translates into wins (and the playoffs, as we all hope) depends, not on what the FO has done in previous seasons, but on what other teams have done this season relative to us.

My personal opinion is that we\'ve improved very little. A TE, FS, and RT aren\'t the kind of positions that are impact positions.

Sure I think an upgrade at RT actually helped - but I would like to have seen an upgrade at two positions on the OL before I called this offseason a success. We\'ll be better here.

Changing our FS I think will have very little impact unless we change our scheme. It will be hard to change the scheme too much with Brown and Bellamy needing deep protection. If Brown amps it up, then I say we have a major upgrade. McKenzie is a MUCH bigger impact move than Smith.

Finally, an upgrade at TE? Jury is out for me. Last I heard this Schad guy is slated to be our #2. That isn\'t all that exciting.

Re-signing Bryant, Gleason, and Hodge were good moves, especially Bryant. These, however, did not improve the team. I\'ll say one thing: this FO has done a very good job of not letting the team get worse, so there is a reason for optimism - the defense can only get better and we have at least one, albeit not obviously huge, upgrade on the O.

saintswhodi · 03-23-2005, 10:16 AM

Yes but the Falcons got Hartwell, the Panthers are healthy AND got a starting guard(pro-bowler) and startng CB to add to Ricky Manning and Chris Gamble, and the Buvs have the 5th pick in the draft(which I pray they can\'t afford and have to move down). Everyone around us is getting BETTER, so us not getting worse doesn\'t hold a lot of hope, unless we luck into the Panthers having 14 players including majority regular starters on IR, or Vick getting hurt, or the Bucs #5 pick holding out cause they can\'t pay him, or they have to cut a Simeon Rice cause they can\'t pay him.

JKool · 03-23-2005, 10:35 AM

I agree.

But.

Those are reasons that have to do with the upcoming year, and not something that happened last year, or the year before that, or even the year before that, or even since the inception of the team.

saintswhodi · 03-23-2005, 10:39 AM

Oh, I can dig it Kool. But they somewhat do have to do with the past. Vick healthy, we saw what the Falcons were like without him. Panthers, Superbowl one year, most injured team in the league the next and not in the playoffs. Bucs, high draft picks have meant big things to some teams. But I definitely see what you meant. Kudos.

JKool · 03-23-2005, 10:42 AM

Right.

LKelley67 · 03-23-2005, 11:21 AM

well said whodat. we are all hopeful and want to be surprised no matter how skeptical. analytical critique is good however. i have said it on other threads and i will again, i like what the vikings have done. a very similar team with one meager playoff showing in the past few years, a coach on the hot seat, and a high flying no defense team. screw mediocrity with the same formula year after year. shake it up and go down with everyone knowing you were pulliing out all the stops to win- not a repeating of the same approach with a little tinkering.

you start fixing problems by going to the #1 issue on the list. in my mind i see a glaring hole right up the gut in how teams ran the ball at will. some have argued that the improvement of the secondary and pass defense will alleviate this. i won\'t debate the point but only say i am not sold. whatever hope there was for sullivan was literally crushed after one weigh in. most all like what has been seen with watson and have hopes for bock too, but their size and inexperience are just facts of life. this linebacking group... makes me ask as someone did, how can a former LB like haz live with this?? mike martz i could imagine LOL.

so yeah, there has been some progress. just not nearly as vital and impacting as needed for a 32-32 team with the publicized most under achieving tag in the league.

WhoDat · 03-23-2005, 12:03 PM

J - I\'m all for examining the facts relative to other teams. But even if you want to look forward, you cannot judge improvement without a point of reference. That has to at least start with last season.

IMO, to suggest that all you need to know is where we are and what we\'ve done is a recipe for disaster. You have to know the history and the context to judge those moves. Otherwise, absent wholesale changes or large losses (a la the Titans this season), it would be a rare ocassion to find that the team didn\'t improve in the offseason. When you do that you get Billy, IMO. A person who truly expects this year to be the year that the Saints put it all together every year... but that hasn\'t happened yet has it?

But fine, let\'s examine the Saints only on what they\'ve done this offseason, and no other time. IMO, they haven\'t improved in significant ways that will affect their record in 2005. Going into the offseason I personally feel that the four biggest areas of need were SLB, OT, WLB, DT. They\'ve failed to sign adequate players at 3 of the 4 top positions of need. Likewise, the one that they did address, Tackle, they filled with a Guard. Is that fair?

JKool · 03-24-2005, 02:46 AM

Who, I\'m on the record as saying this offseason is/was mediocre, so we agree there.

[qutoe]You have to know the history and the context to judge those moves.[/quote:1f3aef38e5] Here, I agree as well. However, context is what is interesting - history is sometimes too much. So, we should look at the last season or so, but there are some people who think that the entire Saints\' history is relevant to every question - they are wrong.

WhoDat · 03-24-2005, 12:33 PM

Looking at something 20 years ago and saying it will affect this season is wrong. I agree. Then again, looking at things that happened beyond last season is not, IMO, a bad idea. If you look back 4 years you see the same FO, same coaches, many of the same players, etc. Suggesting that is totally irrelevant is... well, I disagree with that opinion.

shadowdrinker · 03-24-2005, 12:58 PM

I was referring to the websites, not the negative posts.

As much as proving a point is important to me, I\'m going to pass on this one. I\'d be bringing others in on something that they had nothing to do with, and they don\'t need nor deserve the headache.

So since I can\'t point to a particular website, print out my previous post, and use it for toilet paper, cause that\'s about all it\'s worth.

Well, I can...NewOrleansSaints.com used to have a Forum...not too long after I got there, they just flat out shut it down...due to an over abundance of negativity, and bad mouthing of the Organization

Go Figure...

Not to think it was somehow my fault...I think that place was headed south before I ever got there..

But I think alot of the problems stemmed from people from other teams, coming in and abusing , and cursing, and racial fights, and all that stuff...

Luckily..This is a bit more just for us kind of place...

It\'s like Cheers...Except noone\'s glad you came...haha

[Edited on 24/3/2005 by shadowdrinker]

03-23-2005, 10:11 AM	#31
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Saints and filling needs. Why not? This is one of those cases where, the best inference is this: Team A has made improvements a, b, and c. Team A was bad at x and y last season. If a, b, and c, improve one or both of x and y, they should be better this sesason. Therefore, Team A will be better this season. Whether or not that translates into wins (and the playoffs, as we all hope) depends, not on what the FO has done in previous seasons, but on what other teams have done this season relative to us. My personal opinion is that we\'ve improved very little. A TE, FS, and RT aren\'t the kind of positions that are impact positions. Sure I think an upgrade at RT actually helped - but I would like to have seen an upgrade at two positions on the OL before I called this offseason a success. We\'ll be better here. Changing our FS I think will have very little impact unless we change our scheme. It will be hard to change the scheme too much with Brown and Bellamy needing deep protection. If Brown amps it up, then I say we have a major upgrade. McKenzie is a MUCH bigger impact move than Smith. Finally, an upgrade at TE? Jury is out for me. Last I heard this Schad guy is slated to be our #2. That isn\'t all that exciting. Re-signing Bryant, Gleason, and Hodge were good moves, especially Bryant. These, however, did not improve the team. I\'ll say one thing: this FO has done a very good job of not letting the team get worse, so there is a reason for optimism - the defense can only get better and we have at least one, albeit not obviously huge, upgrade on the O.
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

03-23-2005, 10:16 AM	#32
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Saints and filling needs. Yes but the Falcons got Hartwell, the Panthers are healthy AND got a starting guard(pro-bowler) and startng CB to add to Ricky Manning and Chris Gamble, and the Buvs have the 5th pick in the draft(which I pray they can\'t afford and have to move down). Everyone around us is getting BETTER, so us not getting worse doesn\'t hold a lot of hope, unless we luck into the Panthers having 14 players including majority regular starters on IR, or Vick getting hurt, or the Bucs #5 pick holding out cause they can\'t pay him, or they have to cut a Simeon Rice cause they can\'t pay him.

03-23-2005, 10:35 AM	#33
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Saints and filling needs. I agree. But. Those are reasons that have to do with the upcoming year, and not something that happened last year, or the year before that, or even the year before that, or even since the inception of the team.

03-23-2005, 10:39 AM	#34
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Saints and filling needs. Oh, I can dig it Kool. But they somewhat do have to do with the past. Vick healthy, we saw what the Falcons were like without him. Panthers, Superbowl one year, most injured team in the league the next and not in the playoffs. Bucs, high draft picks have meant big things to some teams. But I definitely see what you meant. Kudos.

03-23-2005, 10:42 AM	#35
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Saints and filling needs. Right.

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03-23-2005, 11:21 AM	#36
LKelley67 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: baton rouge Posts: 2,540	Saints and filling needs. well said whodat. we are all hopeful and want to be surprised no matter how skeptical. analytical critique is good however. i have said it on other threads and i will again, i like what the vikings have done. a very similar team with one meager playoff showing in the past few years, a coach on the hot seat, and a high flying no defense team. screw mediocrity with the same formula year after year. shake it up and go down with everyone knowing you were pulliing out all the stops to win- not a repeating of the same approach with a little tinkering. you start fixing problems by going to the #1 issue on the list. in my mind i see a glaring hole right up the gut in how teams ran the ball at will. some have argued that the improvement of the secondary and pass defense will alleviate this. i won\'t debate the point but only say i am not sold. whatever hope there was for sullivan was literally crushed after one weigh in. most all like what has been seen with watson and have hopes for bock too, but their size and inexperience are just facts of life. this linebacking group... makes me ask as someone did, how can a former LB like haz live with this?? mike martz i could imagine LOL. so yeah, there has been some progress. just not nearly as vital and impacting as needed for a 32-32 team with the publicized most under achieving tag in the league.

03-23-2005, 12:03 PM	#37
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Saints and filling needs. J - I\'m all for examining the facts relative to other teams. But even if you want to look forward, you cannot judge improvement without a point of reference. That has to at least start with last season. IMO, to suggest that all you need to know is where we are and what we\'ve done is a recipe for disaster. You have to know the history and the context to judge those moves. Otherwise, absent wholesale changes or large losses (a la the Titans this season), it would be a rare ocassion to find that the team didn\'t improve in the offseason. When you do that you get Billy, IMO. A person who truly expects this year to be the year that the Saints put it all together every year... but that hasn\'t happened yet has it? But fine, let\'s examine the Saints only on what they\'ve done this offseason, and no other time. IMO, they haven\'t improved in significant ways that will affect their record in 2005. Going into the offseason I personally feel that the four biggest areas of need were SLB, OT, WLB, DT. They\'ve failed to sign adequate players at 3 of the 4 top positions of need. Likewise, the one that they did address, Tackle, they filled with a Guard. Is that fair?
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

03-24-2005, 02:46 AM	#38
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Saints and filling needs. Who, I\'m on the record as saying this offseason is/was mediocre, so we agree there. [qutoe]You have to know the history and the context to judge those moves.[/quote:1f3aef38e5] Here, I agree as well. However, context is what is interesting - history is sometimes too much. So, we should look at the last season or so, but there are some people who think that the entire Saints\' history is relevant to every question - they are wrong.

03-24-2005, 12:33 PM	#39
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Saints and filling needs. Looking at something 20 years ago and saying it will affect this season is wrong. I agree. Then again, looking at things that happened beyond last season is not, IMO, a bad idea. If you look back 4 years you see the same FO, same coaches, many of the same players, etc. Suggesting that is totally irrelevant is... well, I disagree with that opinion.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631

03-24-2005, 12:58 PM	#40
shadowdrinker Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 517	Saints and filling needs. I was referring to the websites, not the negative posts. As much as proving a point is important to me, I\'m going to pass on this one. I\'d be bringing others in on something that they had nothing to do with, and they don\'t need nor deserve the headache. So since I can\'t point to a particular website, print out my previous post, and use it for toilet paper, cause that\'s about all it\'s worth. Well, I can...NewOrleansSaints.com used to have a Forum...not too long after I got there, they just flat out shut it down...due to an over abundance of negativity, and bad mouthing of the Organization Go Figure... Not to think it was somehow my fault...I think that place was headed south before I ever got there.. But I think alot of the problems stemmed from people from other teams, coming in and abusing , and cursing, and racial fights, and all that stuff... Luckily..This is a bit more just for us kind of place... It\'s like Cheers...Except noone\'s glad you came...haha [Edited on 24/3/2005 by shadowdrinker]
shadowdrinker Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 517