Skill Vs Stats, Choose A Side

bignic26 · 03-23-2005, 09:44 PM

The central theme of todays debates, for me anyway, was stats. Shadowdrinker and I had a rather, how should I put this, well I'll just say it was a one sided discussion about stats and how numbers can supposedly determine who the best players are. Which, as any rational football fan knows, is utter and complete nonsense.

There are two players that guys on here will fight to the death to defend. Joe Horn and Aaron Brooks. Almost every heated discussion on this board in some way stems from one of the two. No matter the topic, they will inevitably be brought up and the arguments ensue. In this case, to make a very complex issue simple, I stated that Horn was not one of the top three receivers in the league. I named a few guys who, IMO of course, are better than Joe. Guys like Moss, T.O., Harrison, etc. You know, guys who are clearly better from a skill standpoint than Joe.

Shadowdrinker tried to refute my statement by claiming that Joe is a top three receiver due to the fact that he has put up as good or better stats than some of the other top WRs in the game. Although to me his posistion on the matter was well he seemed to truly believe that numbers are the Alpha and Omega in regards to comparable analyses of player talent. Simply put, his stance is that if player A has better stats than player B, player A is a better player.

If you think I'm just being arrogant, just check out the thread titled "Attention Horn Bashers" and see for yourself.

I'm sure this topic has been discussed at length before my arrival to B&G, but since I'm the new guy and I don't know how ya'll feel about this topic, I'd really like to hear what you guys have to say on the matter. I think it's an issue worth taking a serious look at because if there are "fans" out there who actually believe that stats should be the sole determining factor used to discern who the best players are, then we need to help these people asap! We need to open their eyes to football reality! They must be saved from these delusions of numbers!

Seriously though I'd like to hear your comments on this topic because I consider most of you to be quite knowledgeable about all things football. I really value and respect your opinions, even if they are wrong :D

For those of you that agree with my stance, let me get some validation here. For those of you that oppose my views, let's hear it, but you better come correct. Be sure not to forget your calculators and pocket protectors! :dunce:

[Edited on 24/3/2005 by bignic26]

This bordered on a personal attack.

[Edited on 24/3/2005 by JOESAM2002]

shadowdrinker · 03-23-2005, 09:48 PM

Hey Kid..if you want to throw insults around, We could always do it in Private messages..

I doubt anyone really cares how you or I feel about stats or whatever..

success IN FOOTBALL IS MEASURED BY PRODUCTION, THE METHOD FOR RECORDING PRODUCTION ?...STATS..

\'\'it was a one sided discussion about stats and how numbers can supposedly determine who the best players are. Which, as any rational football fan knows, is utter and complete nonsense. \'\'

Welcome to the Board of Nonsense then..EVERY SINGLE PERSON on this Board uses Stats to solidify thier point, and to COMPARE PRODUCTION..It\'s just the way of the World...

there are \"fans\" out there who actually believe that stats should be the sole determining factor used to discern who the best players are, then we need to help these people asap! We need to open their eyes to football reality! They must be saved from these delusions of numbers!

hahahahahahahahahahaha...

Trust me ...In the REAL WORLD..Numbers talk...is it the only way to measure talent?..no..and I never said it was...But, It\'s the most accesible, and one of the most accurate ways of telling who plays better than in particular situations..

Coaches from the conception of modern Football use STATS to plan for games..and make up thies playbooks, according to what STATISTCALLY works against whichever team they face that week...

[Edited on 24/3/2005 by shadowdrinker]

[Edited on 24/3/2005 by JOESAM2002]

dberce1 · 03-23-2005, 11:39 PM

so, what kind of skills are you guys talking about??

nunchuck skills??

Tobias-Reiper · 03-23-2005, 11:40 PM

edited to remove original, well thought out post, to go with the cat fight...

..you suck, man !!!!
You are a kid...

BIIIAAAAAATCH!!!!

[Edited on 24/3/2005 by Tobias-Reiper]

bignic26 · 03-23-2005, 11:41 PM

I don\'t wish to engage in a peeing contest with you right now. You have paid your dues here and I haven\'t yet. You are a starter and I\'m a rookie. You have 430+ posts and I have only around 75. Of course you have been here longer so you have more respect among members. People are going to take you more seriously than they take me right now because I\'m just another newbie. I have to prove myself to the rest of the old timers. I have to prove that I know football and that I love the Saints more than myself. I have to show everyone that my posts should be read and taken into consideration. And that\'s exactly what I\'m going to do.

There will come a day when I\'m an established member of this group. I just have to earn some respect. I have to earn my credibility. I\'m might be the new kid on the block, but I\'m no Kid and I know as much as anyone about football. I love the Saints as much as anyone else. One day everybody here will know that Big Nic knows how to wind his watch and scratch his butt. But until that day comes, I have to respect my elders. I promise I\'ll earn my respect. Remember this, everyone starts out a rookie.

Anyway, back to the issue at hand. Your posistion is fundamentaly flawed. Again Shadow I\'m not saying that stats shouldn\'t be included in comparing players. Of course production is key to saying who\'s good and who\'s not. But when you say that this guy is a better player than this other guy because he put up better numbers, you\'re flat out wrong. Even though I know that nothing I say will matter because I\'m just a nobody in everyone\'s eyes and nobody give a darn about what I have to say, I\'m going to give one example about my point anyway.

I did some extensive research on last years stats for receivers. I applied your twisted number logic to see who the best WR in the NFL was. Let\'s take a look at the data and see what it tells us since numbers are the only thing that means anything.

Well the stats clearly show that Muhsin Muhammad was the best WR in the league last year. Of course I didn\'t take anything else into consideration because numbers talk and BS walks. Muhammad--1405 yds and 16 TDs. T. Owens--1200yds and 14 TDs. Gee, I sure did think that TO was better than Muhammad, golly jeepers I sure was wrong on that one! Let\'s see if some other players I used to think were better than than Moose guy. Joe Horn--1399yds and 11 TDs. Only 11 TDs, wow that\'s nothing compared to 16! M. Harrison--1399 and 15 Tds. Boy was I wrong.

I give up Shadow you\'re right, numbers do tell the story and they don\'t lie. Sir, I once was blind but now I see. If it weren\'t for your almighty stats I might still be thinking that those bums were better than Moose. I feel so ashamed right now.

[Edited on 24/3/2005 by JOESAM2002]

shadowdrinker · 03-23-2005, 11:54 PM

Dude..Your getting a little carried away..

I could care less if you have 1 post or a thousand...

You contradict yourself alot..as many do..including myself..and then you tried to call me out and make me look stupid..and frankly, I felt it unwarranted, and unnecessary...

I mean..you said stats are usless when measuring talent and ability..then you say they are useful tools?...

The fact is..I rely on stats to give me an ESTIMATION of what might happen..and often times..they are very accurate...

It\'s one thing to question validity of stats..but..you went as far as to call me several names, and compare me to a retard...and then start an entire thread dedicated to \'\'rallying the troops\'\' to have a collective bashing of me, not my views...and that\'s weak..

So..keep in mind..your \'\'post number \'\' has little to do with how serious people take you...

And..I\'m hardley a \'\'respected\'\' poster..believe me...

But..I will always say what I feel is true..and..very seldom, I can be turned from my views..but you better have more than a personal opinion and an axe to grind...cuz that isn\'t going to fly...

By the way..I have several hundred more posts under another name..hahahaha

bignic26 · 03-24-2005, 12:01 AM

Shadow, do your stats show heart, will or passion. Do they show drive or determination. 4th and goal at the one, Curtis Martin goes up top, just gives it all he\'s got, put\'s his body on the line for the team, for victory. He\'s not thinking about getting hurt. He\'s not thinking about money. He\'s not thinking about maybe ending his career on this play. He\'s thinking about scoring a TD for the team and he does. He gets up and hands the ball to the ref and runs to the sideline. Your numbers talk but do they tell that story. No, all they show is 1 carry for 1 yard and 1 TD.

shadowdrinker · 03-24-2005, 12:20 AM

You confuse bieng good with bieng great...

Bieng Good comes form performing at a comparable rate to other good players...These comparisons are made thorugh the study of statistics...

Bieng Great stems from performing well in high stress situations..like, playoffs, and Superbowls...

Sometimes. One can overshadow the other...

By your logic...Incentive based deals should be rated on \'\'coolness\'\'and not production.. I hate to burst your Bubble, but Stats are used by every GM in the League to determine those types of contracts..and when and how much said player gets paid for how much HE PRODUCES...

It doesn\'t state things like..\'\'well..if you can look cool 3 times this year..we\'ll give you an extra bonus of said amount..\'\'

Furthermore..How do YOU know what goes on in a receiver\'s mind when He\'s giong up for the Ball?...You can SPECULATE..but it hardley makes a point...

\'\'people who don\'t agree with me aren\'t ignorant, just wrong.\'\' -- bignic26

\'\'I feel as though the points I made on the subject were a wave and his were a sand castle that was washed out to sea. If you think I\'m just being arrogant, just check out the thread titled \"Attention Horn Bashers\" and see for yourself.\'\' -- bignic26

You ...arrogant? perish the thought...

\'\'Shadow, do your stats show heart, will or passion\'\' -- bignic26

Since when are they MY stats? ...You thought you were going to come in here...razzle and dazzle people..and have yourself look like some Football Guru..and have all fall and worship...I got news ....NOONE CARES...and people on this board are extremely well informed, and STATS are used by ALL HERE...this isn\'t a new concept ...It\'s(like I said before) A GLOBAL CONCEPT.

If you still feel the need to go and make another thread trying to get people to follow suit , and bash me because you were wrong...please try...I promise you..it won\'t happen for too long...

Have a nice Day!

Absolutely right,this crap stops NOW!

[Edited on 24/3/2005 by JOESAM2002]

shadowdrinker · 03-24-2005, 12:23 AM

I was waiting for a proper sig to come along...

My wait has rewarded me...

RockyMountainSaint · 03-24-2005, 12:38 AM

Great stuff guys!

Could this be the beginning of a rivalry on par with
Billy vs Who ???????

God I love this site!

[Edited on 24/3/2005 by RockyMountainSaint]

03-23-2005, 09:44 PM	#1
bignic26 100th Post Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 122	Skill Vs Stats, Choose A Side The central theme of todays debates, for me anyway, was stats. Shadowdrinker and I had a rather, how should I put this, well I'll just say it was a one sided discussion about stats and how numbers can supposedly determine who the best players are. Which, as any rational football fan knows, is utter and complete nonsense. There are two players that guys on here will fight to the death to defend. Joe Horn and Aaron Brooks. Almost every heated discussion on this board in some way stems from one of the two. No matter the topic, they will inevitably be brought up and the arguments ensue. In this case, to make a very complex issue simple, I stated that Horn was not one of the top three receivers in the league. I named a few guys who, IMO of course, are better than Joe. Guys like Moss, T.O., Harrison, etc. You know, guys who are clearly better from a skill standpoint than Joe. Shadowdrinker tried to refute my statement by claiming that Joe is a top three receiver due to the fact that he has put up as good or better stats than some of the other top WRs in the game. Although to me his posistion on the matter was well he seemed to truly believe that numbers are the Alpha and Omega in regards to comparable analyses of player talent. Simply put, his stance is that if player A has better stats than player B, player A is a better player. If you think I'm just being arrogant, just check out the thread titled "Attention Horn Bashers" and see for yourself. I'm sure this topic has been discussed at length before my arrival to B&G, but since I'm the new guy and I don't know how ya'll feel about this topic, I'd really like to hear what you guys have to say on the matter. I think it's an issue worth taking a serious look at because if there are "fans" out there who actually believe that stats should be the sole determining factor used to discern who the best players are, then we need to help these people asap! We need to open their eyes to football reality! They must be saved from these delusions of numbers! Seriously though I'd like to hear your comments on this topic because I consider most of you to be quite knowledgeable about all things football. I really value and respect your opinions, even if they are wrong :D For those of you that agree with my stance, let me get some validation here. For those of you that oppose my views, let's hear it, but you better come correct. Be sure not to forget your calculators and pocket protectors! :dunce: [Edited on 24/3/2005 by bignic26] This bordered on a personal attack. [Edited on 24/3/2005 by JOESAM2002]
bignic26 100th Post Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 122

03-23-2005, 09:48 PM	#2
shadowdrinker Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 517	Skill Vs Stats, Choose A Side Hey Kid..if you want to throw insults around, We could always do it in Private messages.. I doubt anyone really cares how you or I feel about stats or whatever.. success IN FOOTBALL IS MEASURED BY PRODUCTION, THE METHOD FOR RECORDING PRODUCTION ?...STATS.. \'\'it was a one sided discussion about stats and how numbers can supposedly determine who the best players are. Which, as any rational football fan knows, is utter and complete nonsense. \'\' Welcome to the Board of Nonsense then..EVERY SINGLE PERSON on this Board uses Stats to solidify thier point, and to COMPARE PRODUCTION..It\'s just the way of the World... there are \"fans\" out there who actually believe that stats should be the sole determining factor used to discern who the best players are, then we need to help these people asap! We need to open their eyes to football reality! They must be saved from these delusions of numbers! hahahahahahahahahahaha... Trust me ...In the REAL WORLD..Numbers talk...is it the only way to measure talent?..no..and I never said it was...But, It\'s the most accesible, and one of the most accurate ways of telling who plays better than in particular situations.. Coaches from the conception of modern Football use STATS to plan for games..and make up thies playbooks, according to what STATISTCALLY works against whichever team they face that week... [Edited on 24/3/2005 by shadowdrinker] [Edited on 24/3/2005 by JOESAM2002]
shadowdrinker Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 517

03-23-2005, 11:39 PM	#3
dberce1 Chuck Liddells Right Hand Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Prairieville, Louisiana Posts: 1,227	Skill Vs Stats, Choose A Side so, what kind of skills are you guys talking about?? nunchuck skills??

03-23-2005, 11:40 PM	#4
Tobias-Reiper Merces Letifer Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 4,161	Skill Vs Stats, Choose A Side edited to remove original, well thought out post, to go with the cat fight... ..you suck, man !!!! You are a kid... BIIIAAAAAATCH!!!! [Edited on 24/3/2005 by Tobias-Reiper]

03-23-2005, 11:41 PM	#5
bignic26 100th Post Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 122	Skill Vs Stats, Choose A Side I don\'t wish to engage in a peeing contest with you right now. You have paid your dues here and I haven\'t yet. You are a starter and I\'m a rookie. You have 430+ posts and I have only around 75. Of course you have been here longer so you have more respect among members. People are going to take you more seriously than they take me right now because I\'m just another newbie. I have to prove myself to the rest of the old timers. I have to prove that I know football and that I love the Saints more than myself. I have to show everyone that my posts should be read and taken into consideration. And that\'s exactly what I\'m going to do. There will come a day when I\'m an established member of this group. I just have to earn some respect. I have to earn my credibility. I\'m might be the new kid on the block, but I\'m no Kid and I know as much as anyone about football. I love the Saints as much as anyone else. One day everybody here will know that Big Nic knows how to wind his watch and scratch his butt. But until that day comes, I have to respect my elders. I promise I\'ll earn my respect. Remember this, everyone starts out a rookie. Anyway, back to the issue at hand. Your posistion is fundamentaly flawed. Again Shadow I\'m not saying that stats shouldn\'t be included in comparing players. Of course production is key to saying who\'s good and who\'s not. But when you say that this guy is a better player than this other guy because he put up better numbers, you\'re flat out wrong. Even though I know that nothing I say will matter because I\'m just a nobody in everyone\'s eyes and nobody give a darn about what I have to say, I\'m going to give one example about my point anyway. I did some extensive research on last years stats for receivers. I applied your twisted number logic to see who the best WR in the NFL was. Let\'s take a look at the data and see what it tells us since numbers are the only thing that means anything. Well the stats clearly show that Muhsin Muhammad was the best WR in the league last year. Of course I didn\'t take anything else into consideration because numbers talk and BS walks. Muhammad--1405 yds and 16 TDs. T. Owens--1200yds and 14 TDs. Gee, I sure did think that TO was better than Muhammad, golly jeepers I sure was wrong on that one! Let\'s see if some other players I used to think were better than than Moose guy. Joe Horn--1399yds and 11 TDs. Only 11 TDs, wow that\'s nothing compared to 16! M. Harrison--1399 and 15 Tds. Boy was I wrong. I give up Shadow you\'re right, numbers do tell the story and they don\'t lie. Sir, I once was blind but now I see. If it weren\'t for your almighty stats I might still be thinking that those bums were better than Moose. I feel so ashamed right now. [Edited on 24/3/2005 by JOESAM2002]
bignic26 100th Post Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 122	We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams

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03-23-2005, 11:54 PM	#6
shadowdrinker Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 517	Skill Vs Stats, Choose A Side Dude..Your getting a little carried away.. I could care less if you have 1 post or a thousand... You contradict yourself alot..as many do..including myself..and then you tried to call me out and make me look stupid..and frankly, I felt it unwarranted, and unnecessary... I mean..you said stats are usless when measuring talent and ability..then you say they are useful tools?... The fact is..I rely on stats to give me an ESTIMATION of what might happen..and often times..they are very accurate... It\'s one thing to question validity of stats..but..you went as far as to call me several names, and compare me to a retard...and then start an entire thread dedicated to \'\'rallying the troops\'\' to have a collective bashing of me, not my views...and that\'s weak.. So..keep in mind..your \'\'post number \'\' has little to do with how serious people take you... And..I\'m hardley a \'\'respected\'\' poster..believe me... But..I will always say what I feel is true..and..very seldom, I can be turned from my views..but you better have more than a personal opinion and an axe to grind...cuz that isn\'t going to fly... By the way..I have several hundred more posts under another name..hahahaha
shadowdrinker Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 517

03-24-2005, 12:01 AM	#7
bignic26 100th Post Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 122	Skill Vs Stats, Choose A Side Shadow, do your stats show heart, will or passion. Do they show drive or determination. 4th and goal at the one, Curtis Martin goes up top, just gives it all he\'s got, put\'s his body on the line for the team, for victory. He\'s not thinking about getting hurt. He\'s not thinking about money. He\'s not thinking about maybe ending his career on this play. He\'s thinking about scoring a TD for the team and he does. He gets up and hands the ball to the ref and runs to the sideline. Your numbers talk but do they tell that story. No, all they show is 1 carry for 1 yard and 1 TD.
bignic26 100th Post Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 122	We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams

03-24-2005, 12:20 AM	#8
shadowdrinker Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 517	Skill Vs Stats, Choose A Side You confuse bieng good with bieng great... Bieng Good comes form performing at a comparable rate to other good players...These comparisons are made thorugh the study of statistics... Bieng Great stems from performing well in high stress situations..like, playoffs, and Superbowls... Sometimes. One can overshadow the other... By your logic...Incentive based deals should be rated on \'\'coolness\'\'and not production.. I hate to burst your Bubble, but Stats are used by every GM in the League to determine those types of contracts..and when and how much said player gets paid for how much HE PRODUCES... It doesn\'t state things like..\'\'well..if you can look cool 3 times this year..we\'ll give you an extra bonus of said amount..\'\' Furthermore..How do YOU know what goes on in a receiver\'s mind when He\'s giong up for the Ball?...You can SPECULATE..but it hardley makes a point... \'\'people who don\'t agree with me aren\'t ignorant, just wrong.\'\' -- bignic26 \'\'I feel as though the points I made on the subject were a wave and his were a sand castle that was washed out to sea. If you think I\'m just being arrogant, just check out the thread titled \"Attention Horn Bashers\" and see for yourself.\'\' -- bignic26 You ...arrogant? perish the thought... \'\'Shadow, do your stats show heart, will or passion\'\' -- bignic26 Since when are they MY stats? ...You thought you were going to come in here...razzle and dazzle people..and have yourself look like some Football Guru..and have all fall and worship...I got news ....NOONE CARES...and people on this board are extremely well informed, and STATS are used by ALL HERE...this isn\'t a new concept ...It\'s(like I said before) A GLOBAL CONCEPT. If you still feel the need to go and make another thread trying to get people to follow suit , and bash me because you were wrong...please try...I promise you..it won\'t happen for too long... Have a nice Day! Absolutely right,this crap stops NOW! [Edited on 24/3/2005 by JOESAM2002]
shadowdrinker Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 517

03-24-2005, 12:23 AM	#9
shadowdrinker Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 517	Skill Vs Stats, Choose A Side I was waiting for a proper sig to come along... My wait has rewarded me...
shadowdrinker Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 517

03-24-2005, 12:38 AM	#10
RockyMountainSaint Mmm That Smell! Join Date: Oct 1998 Location: Metairie Terrace Posts: 3,073	Skill Vs Stats, Choose A Side Great stuff guys! Could this be the beginning of a rivalry on par with Billy vs Who ??????? God I love this site! [Edited on 24/3/2005 by RockyMountainSaint]