Proof that Brooks didn't inflate Horn's stats

blackwidows · 03-24-2005, 04:21 PM

All I know is Horn had 94 receptions. how can you calculate pasess thrown to a certyain wr they don\'y have a stat for receivers attempts just receptions.

GumboBC · 03-24-2005, 04:22 PM

All I know is Horn had 94 receptions. how can you calculate pasess thrown to a certyain wr they don\'y have a stat for receivers attempts just receptions.

But they do have stats for \"pass attempts\" and we posted them on this thread.

4saintspirit · 03-24-2005, 04:26 PM

One thing I find apparent in this forum is that there is no grey areas -- that there is no middle ground -- it has to be one way or the other--- To summarize the arguments

On Gumbos side ==== AB does not throw any more balls to Horn (% wise) than most QBs to their favorite receivers

On the opposing side --- If AB didn\'t get rushed so much (that he had to throw to his running backs) then he would have thrown all of those passes in the same proportion the receivers are in now which would make Horn\'s % be vastly higher than others making the argument for tunnel vision of AB.

Now -- as an impartial participant -- who disagrees with Gumbo more often than not -- I have to say Gumbo seems to have won this one :band2.sml:

Saint_LB · 03-24-2005, 04:31 PM

I think what SW is pointing out is that AB doesn\'t have the ability to check-down to the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th receiver in a given pass play. It appears that he focuses on the primary receiver, and spends all of his allotted time watching that guy as he runs his route. He should be able to determine if that guy is going to be open or not, and check down to his alternatives, which AB has not shown a great ability to do. He has shown the ability to force the ball through a crack with his laser shots, but doesn\'t seem to have the poise to scan the field when the primary guy is doubled, or whatever. By the time he gets around to looking for someone else, it is too late...and I don\'t think the O-line is COMPLETELY responsible for that. You hear people talking all the time about QB\'s needing to have that little alarm clock going in their head so as to know when the time is up. No O-lineman can hold his block forever, thus, the need for the timer.

JKool · 03-24-2005, 04:35 PM

Well, that got pretty heated.

Here is a clarificatory question:

Horn - 94 receptions
Stallworth - 58 receptions
Pathon - 34 receptions
McAllister - 34 receptions
Williams - 33 receptions

What would this distribution look like if Brooks were locked on to Horn? What would it look like if he weren\'t?

Panthers
Muhammad - 93 receptions
Colbert - 47
Proehl - 34
Goings - 45
Mangum - 34

Bucs
Clayton - 80
Galloway - 33
Jurevicious - 27
Pittman - 41
Dilger - 39

Falcons
Price - 45
White - 30
Finneran - 23
Dunn - 29
Crumpler - 48

Aside from the Falc\'s those look pretty much like the same distributions to me. Either only Vick doesn\'t lock on, or only Vick doesn\'t lock on enough.

Here is an interesting point: Brooks doesn\'t throw to McAllister nearly as often as Delhomme or Griese throw to their backs. I guess it runs in the family, since Vick doesn\'t throw it to the back either.

On the whole, this is pretty inconclusive if you ask me. I don\'t think that Brooks locks on to Horn any more than he should given Horn\'s skill vs. the next best WR. However, I don\'t think these stats show one way or the other whether or not Brooks locks in too often.

Stats: http://www.nfl.com

GumboBC · 03-24-2005, 04:36 PM

Saint_LB --

Correct me if I\'m wrong here, but, the topic was Brooks locking on to Joe Horn.

The facts don\'t bear that out. The facts say that Brooks only throws the ball to Joe Horn 28.2% of the time.

Now, your opinion suggests that Brooks doesn\'t have the ability to check-down to the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th receiver in a given pass play.

But, again, the facts say something different. Simply saying that\'s how I feel isn\'t the best way to prove a point. Now, you\'ve got the right to state your opinioin, but let\'s not overlook the facts.

4saintspirit · 03-24-2005, 04:47 PM

I think what SW is pointing out is that AB doesn\'t have the ability to check-down to the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th receiver in a given pass play. It appears that he focuses on the primary receiver, and spends all of his allotted time watching that guy as he runs his route. He has shown the ability to force the ball through a crack with his laser shots, but doesn\'t seem to have the poise to scan the field when the primary guy is doubled, or whatever. By the time he gets around to looking for someone else, it is too late...and I don\'t think the O-line is COMPLETELY responsible for that. You hear people talking all the time about QB\'s needing to have that little alarm clock going in their head so as to know when the time is up. No O-lineman can hold his block forever, thus, the need for the timer.

I agree with these points -- I have always said that AB has a habit of not checking off properly -- but mind you that works against the other receivers as well -- cause not every passing play starts off being a play for Horn.

Saint_LB · 03-24-2005, 04:51 PM

Saint_LB --

Correct me if I\'m wrong here, but, the topic was Brooks locking on to Joe Horn.

The facts don\'t bear that out. The facts say that Brooks only throws the ball to Joe Horn 28.2% of the time.

Now, your opinion suggests that Brooks doesn\'t have the ability to check-down to the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th receiver in a given pass play.

But, again, the facts say something different. Simply saying that\'s how I feel isn\'t the best way to prove a point. Now, you\'ve got the right to state your opinioin, but let\'s not overlook the facts.

I am not trying to prove a point at all. I usually just make observations and state my opinion. I don\'t feel the need to try to change anyone\'s mind, and know that it would be impossible to do that anyway.

GumboBC · 03-24-2005, 04:58 PM

Saint_LB --

Okay ... I understand. But, I think anyone who posts their opinion on a message board is trying to make someone see it like them. Or at least hope someone agrees with them. If not, then why post it in the first place?

And I don\'t think Brooks is the best at reading defenses and I sure wouldn\'t put him in the eltie class of QBs when it comes down to it.

But, I do know that it\'s been proven that Brooks does NOT lock on to Joe Horn anymore than Bulger, Delhomme, or Haselbeck lock on to their number one receiver.

And to be honest, I can\'t read NFL defenses enough to know how any of those QBs progress through their reads. I aslo know that without the \"coaches\" tape, that you just can\'t see enough on the TV every Sunday to be accurate.

duece4pres · 03-24-2005, 05:00 PM

You still don\'t get it do you. I can\'t believe you wasted our time with another thread. The passing is not in relation to how much AB throws to Joe as opposed to others throwing to their number ones, it\'s in relation to how much AB throws to Joe, then Donte, then Jerome as compared to how much other QBs throw to their 1s, 2s and 3s. Jeez man, you never cease to amaze me. This has gone from bad to worse. I will give you an easy one, Get the precentage for Peyton\'s passes to Harrison, then Wayne then Stokley, and compare it to AB throwing to Joe, then Donte, then Jerome. I mean after all, I already gave you the right stats to look up.

Every team has to have a #1 WR

03-24-2005, 04:21 PM	#51
blackwidows 100th Post Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 245	Proof that Brooks didn't inflate Horn's stats All I know is Horn had 94 receptions. how can you calculate pasess thrown to a certyain wr they don\'y have a stat for receivers attempts just receptions.
blackwidows 100th Post Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 245

03-24-2005, 04:22 PM	#52
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Proof that Brooks didn't inflate Horn's stats All I know is Horn had 94 receptions. how can you calculate pasess thrown to a certyain wr they don\'y have a stat for receivers attempts just receptions. But they do have stats for \"pass attempts\" and we posted them on this thread.
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

03-24-2005, 04:26 PM	#53
4saintspirit 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 690	Proof that Brooks didn't inflate Horn's stats One thing I find apparent in this forum is that there is no grey areas -- that there is no middle ground -- it has to be one way or the other--- To summarize the arguments On Gumbos side ==== AB does not throw any more balls to Horn (% wise) than most QBs to their favorite receivers On the opposing side --- If AB didn\'t get rushed so much (that he had to throw to his running backs) then he would have thrown all of those passes in the same proportion the receivers are in now which would make Horn\'s % be vastly higher than others making the argument for tunnel vision of AB. Now -- as an impartial participant -- who disagrees with Gumbo more often than not -- I have to say Gumbo seems to have won this one :band2.sml:
4saintspirit 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 690	\"I have a photographic memory -- I just don\'t have any film.\"

03-24-2005, 04:31 PM	#54
Saint_LB Deuce Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 2,894	Proof that Brooks didn't inflate Horn's stats I think what SW is pointing out is that AB doesn\'t have the ability to check-down to the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th receiver in a given pass play. It appears that he focuses on the primary receiver, and spends all of his allotted time watching that guy as he runs his route. He should be able to determine if that guy is going to be open or not, and check down to his alternatives, which AB has not shown a great ability to do. He has shown the ability to force the ball through a crack with his laser shots, but doesn\'t seem to have the poise to scan the field when the primary guy is doubled, or whatever. By the time he gets around to looking for someone else, it is too late...and I don\'t think the O-line is COMPLETELY responsible for that. You hear people talking all the time about QB\'s needing to have that little alarm clock going in their head so as to know when the time is up. No O-lineman can hold his block forever, thus, the need for the timer.
Saint_LB Deuce Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 2,894	Whether you think you can or think you can't...you're right!

03-24-2005, 04:35 PM	#55
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Proof that Brooks didn't inflate Horn's stats Well, that got pretty heated. Here is a clarificatory question: Horn - 94 receptions Stallworth - 58 receptions Pathon - 34 receptions McAllister - 34 receptions Williams - 33 receptions What would this distribution look like if Brooks were locked on to Horn? What would it look like if he weren\'t? Panthers Muhammad - 93 receptions Colbert - 47 Proehl - 34 Goings - 45 Mangum - 34 Bucs Clayton - 80 Galloway - 33 Jurevicious - 27 Pittman - 41 Dilger - 39 Falcons Price - 45 White - 30 Finneran - 23 Dunn - 29 Crumpler - 48 Aside from the Falc\'s those look pretty much like the same distributions to me. Either only Vick doesn\'t lock on, or only Vick doesn\'t lock on enough. Here is an interesting point: Brooks doesn\'t throw to McAllister nearly as often as Delhomme or Griese throw to their backs. I guess it runs in the family, since Vick doesn\'t throw it to the back either. On the whole, this is pretty inconclusive if you ask me. I don\'t think that Brooks locks on to Horn any more than he should given Horn\'s skill vs. the next best WR. However, I don\'t think these stats show one way or the other whether or not Brooks locks in too often. Stats: http://www.nfl.com
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

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03-24-2005, 04:36 PM	#56
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Proof that Brooks didn't inflate Horn's stats Saint_LB -- Correct me if I\'m wrong here, but, the topic was Brooks locking on to Joe Horn. The facts don\'t bear that out. The facts say that Brooks only throws the ball to Joe Horn 28.2% of the time. Now, your opinion suggests that Brooks doesn\'t have the ability to check-down to the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th receiver in a given pass play. But, again, the facts say something different. Simply saying that\'s how I feel isn\'t the best way to prove a point. Now, you\'ve got the right to state your opinioin, but let\'s not overlook the facts.
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

03-24-2005, 04:47 PM	#57
4saintspirit 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 690	Proof that Brooks didn't inflate Horn's stats I think what SW is pointing out is that AB doesn\'t have the ability to check-down to the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th receiver in a given pass play. It appears that he focuses on the primary receiver, and spends all of his allotted time watching that guy as he runs his route. He has shown the ability to force the ball through a crack with his laser shots, but doesn\'t seem to have the poise to scan the field when the primary guy is doubled, or whatever. By the time he gets around to looking for someone else, it is too late...and I don\'t think the O-line is COMPLETELY responsible for that. You hear people talking all the time about QB\'s needing to have that little alarm clock going in their head so as to know when the time is up. No O-lineman can hold his block forever, thus, the need for the timer. I agree with these points -- I have always said that AB has a habit of not checking off properly -- but mind you that works against the other receivers as well -- cause not every passing play starts off being a play for Horn.
4saintspirit 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 690

03-24-2005, 04:51 PM	#58
Saint_LB Deuce Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 2,894	Proof that Brooks didn't inflate Horn's stats Saint_LB -- Correct me if I\'m wrong here, but, the topic was Brooks locking on to Joe Horn. The facts don\'t bear that out. The facts say that Brooks only throws the ball to Joe Horn 28.2% of the time. Now, your opinion suggests that Brooks doesn\'t have the ability to check-down to the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th receiver in a given pass play. But, again, the facts say something different. Simply saying that\'s how I feel isn\'t the best way to prove a point. Now, you\'ve got the right to state your opinioin, but let\'s not overlook the facts. I am not trying to prove a point at all. I usually just make observations and state my opinion. I don\'t feel the need to try to change anyone\'s mind, and know that it would be impossible to do that anyway.
Saint_LB Deuce Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 2,894

03-24-2005, 04:58 PM	#59
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Proof that Brooks didn't inflate Horn's stats Saint_LB -- Okay ... I understand. But, I think anyone who posts their opinion on a message board is trying to make someone see it like them. Or at least hope someone agrees with them. If not, then why post it in the first place? And I don\'t think Brooks is the best at reading defenses and I sure wouldn\'t put him in the eltie class of QBs when it comes down to it. But, I do know that it\'s been proven that Brooks does NOT lock on to Joe Horn anymore than Bulger, Delhomme, or Haselbeck lock on to their number one receiver. And to be honest, I can\'t read NFL defenses enough to know how any of those QBs progress through their reads. I aslo know that without the \"coaches\" tape, that you just can\'t see enough on the TV every Sunday to be accurate.
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

03-24-2005, 05:00 PM	#60
duece4pres Biloxi Bandit Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: biloxi, ms Posts: 293	Proof that Brooks didn't inflate Horn's stats You still don\'t get it do you. I can\'t believe you wasted our time with another thread. The passing is not in relation to how much AB throws to Joe as opposed to others throwing to their number ones, it\'s in relation to how much AB throws to Joe, then Donte, then Jerome as compared to how much other QBs throw to their 1s, 2s and 3s. Jeez man, you never cease to amaze me. This has gone from bad to worse. I will give you an easy one, Get the precentage for Peyton\'s passes to Harrison, then Wayne then Stokley, and compare it to AB throwing to Joe, then Donte, then Jerome. I mean after all, I already gave you the right stats to look up. Every team has to have a #1 WR