Single most important factor for the offense

saintz08 · 04-03-2005, 05:46 PM

Here is one for you GumboBC .....

There might not be an offensive tackle worth taking in the first round of the draft, including Florida State\'s Alex Barron. And now, there isn\'t a reason to reach for one, either

NFL teams can pass-block, run-block and win games without premium talent at the offensive line position. The Patriots proved this lesson. They won the Super Bowl with a second-round pick, a fifth-round pick and three scrapheap pickups. The Falcons reinforced it. They led the league in rushing with three seventh-round picks, a fourth-round pick and a 2002 veteran free-agent pickup.

The lesson was driven home by the Chargers, who were third in the NFL in points per game playing two rookies, a journeyman with his fourth team, a guard who had been considered a bust until last year and a 2004 veteran free-agent signee.

Just because Walter Jones and Orlando Pace, the NFL\'s best left tackles, recently signed long-term deals with the Seahawks and Rams is not a reason for teams to panic and overpay free-agent tackles with Frankenstein feet. One of the most questionable signings of the free-agent period was the 49ers\' giving $36 million to Jonas Jennings. The left tackle will make the 49ers better, but they could have used their money more prudently.

Falcons offensive line consultant Alex Gibbs prefers lower-round picks and undrafted free agents because he believes offensive linemen need to be developed and that high-round draft choices aren\'t afforded time or patience for development. It\'s an efficient philosophy on more than one front, enabling teams such as the Falcons to appropriate more salary cap space and cash to skill position players such as quarterback Michael Vick and tight end Alge Crumpler, both of whom recently signed lucrative extensions.

Now, some teams are emphasizing offensive line coaches more than linemen. The Dolphins were happy to recently sign line coach Hudson Houck, who coached the Chargers\' line last season, to a deal worth $850,000 per year.

\"The offensive line might be the position where coaching is more of a significant factor than any position,\" Bills general manager Tom Donahoe says. \"I think you need a premium offensive line coach, the guy who can take down-the-line guys and free agents and develop them into pretty good pros.\"

A superior offensive line coach certainly can improve players\' techniques. But the way he can help his team most is by implementing a blocker-friendly scheme.

\"You can take pressure off the blocker by running the ball, using the play-action pass,\" Falcons general manager Rich McKay says. \"If you are a team that has to throw 65 percent of the time and you\'re a dropback team, you\'re putting a lot of stress on your tackles. You better be able to protect.\"

In part because of how the Patriots\' offense is set up, the team got away with using Brandon Gorin at right tackle this season after Tom Ashworth was injured. It\'s not that difficult to block for the Patriots\' skill position players.

\"Corey Dillon is a back who sees the holes and gets into those holes quickly,\" Patriots line coach Dante Scarnecchia says. \"Tom Brady gets the ball out on rhythm, and we have receivers who can get in a pattern fast. That demands a lot less of your offensive line and makes it easier for them.\"

Continuity and understanding also allow offensive linemen to play more effectively than their skills might suggest. \"The ability of the players to react in a coordinated manner is what makes a good offensive line,\" Browns line coach Jeff Davidson says.

Scarnecchia and the Patriots are able to live with a tough offensive lineman who lacks ideal foot quickness, or one whose arms aren\'t quite long enough, or one who doesn\'t have as solid a base as they\'d prefer.

It is a lesson other teams would be wise to absorb.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/3505276

FireVenturi · 04-04-2005, 12:44 AM

I dont care about any grades!!! we are not even in the top 20 at OL!!!!!

WhoDat · 04-04-2005, 10:04 AM

Let me just say this. Whether you like Brooks or dislike him ... a QB needs time to throw the ball and that\'s the way it\'s always been and will always be.

Well Billy, theoretically you\'re correct. But then, I wasn\'t arguing that point. The argument that a QB SHOULD perform better when he gets more time to throw is a pretty easy one to make. What I\'m suggesting is that the argument you made - essentially, if the line plays better the \"skill players\" will play better only seems to hold water when it comes to Deuce. Horn plays great no matter what. Brooks plays inconsistently no matter what. You can argue if you like, but Horn went to the Pro Bowl last year with a terrible line, and he went 3 and 4 years ago with a very good line. Brooks was inconsistent last year with a bad line and he was inconsistent before with a good line. Therefore, while theoretically speaking, your opinion makes sense, I am suggesting that as it relates to this team, it just hasn\'t been shown to make a difference in practice.

GumboBC · 04-04-2005, 10:13 AM

WhoDat --

I really feel like I shouldn\'t have to explain this to you but ...

You like to make the argement that because Decue rushed for x-amount yards that that is an indication that our offensive line was pretty good.

That couldn\'t be further from the truth and here\'s why:

1. Deuce is good enough that he\'s going to make the line look better than what it is.

2. Run blocking really doesn\'t have anything to do with pass blocking. Some offensive linemen are great at run blocking but lack the foot speed to pass block.

And your arguement that Brooks struggles no matter how the offensive line plays is pretty ridiculous. And here\'s why:

In 2003 our offensive line was terrible at pass blocking. It was pointed out many times by myself and others. Some of you still wanted to suggest that because Deuce rushed for 1600 yards that our offensive line was good. That was hardly the case.

Also, the only good pass blocking line Brooks ever had was when Roaf and Turley was here. Brooks was a young improving QB that was going to make mistakes.

Say what you want, WhoDat. The truth or the matter is Brooks needs more time in the pocket. Whether you THINK Brooks will still make mistakes is really irrelevent.

[Edited on 4/4/2005 by GumboBC]

[Edited on 4/4/2005 by GumboBC]

WhoDat · 04-04-2005, 10:27 AM

Sure Billy. You\'re right. The thing that has kept Brooks from being the All-Pro that you know him to be is our line... er WRs... er coaching/play calling.... er fans. Whatever, it\'s all their fault!!!

Jake Delhomme had a worse line and a better QB rating.
Peyton Manning doesn\'t need as much time as AB - he get the ball out more quickly.

GumboBC · 04-04-2005, 11:46 AM

Sure Billy. You\'re right. The thing that has kept Brooks from being the All-Pro that you know him to be is our line... er WRs... er coaching/play calling.... er fans. Whatever, it\'s all their fault!!!

Jake Delhomme had a worse line and a better QB rating.
Peyton Manning doesn\'t need as much time as AB - he get the ball out more quickly.

The Panthers did not have a worse line than ours. But that\'s just my opinion. And you are entilted to your opinion.

The only game I saw Jake get a lot of pressure was in the last game against us. And Jake really really struggled.

Brooks faced that kind of pressure on almost a weekly basis.

Anyway, I hope we have a much better O-line this year. I honestly believe that is the single most important factor for the offense.

[Edited on 4/4/2005 by GumboBC]

GoldenTomb · 04-04-2005, 12:16 PM

Oh come on now.....I saw numerous times where Brooks was in the pocket for 5+ seconds and just had that Thousand-yard stare going on. I agree that O-line has been a huge problem but if Brooks could read defenses, he could\'ve had a few more completions and a few less INTs and fumbles.

Does the o-line make you throw off your back foot?
Does the o-line make you throw endzone INTs?
Does the o-line deprive you of the ability to hit any of your recievers in stride?
Does the o-line make you throw inverted passes(still don\'t know how he did that)?
Does the o-line make you fumble the ball?

Sacks are the what the o-line is at fault for. Not INTs, fumbles, or completely bone head plays.

Fumbles
2004 - 13
2003 - 14
2002 - 11
2001 - 13

Seems like even when he had the \"superior\" line he was still fumbling.

[Edited on 4/4/2005 by GoldenTomb]

saintz08 · 04-04-2005, 12:47 PM

Special WhoDat link .....

http://boards.atlantafalcons.com/lof...hp?t62199.html

And they say were bad ..... :rollinglaugh:

WhoDat · 04-04-2005, 02:27 PM

ROFLMFAO.

08 - That made my day. My favorite post: In response to Brooks\' comments in which he said:

\"I really don\'t have much to say to none of y\'all,\" he said. \"I said after the game that I\'d be laughing at y\'all, the fake experts in the media. All y\'all been talking (expletive) on Aaron Brooks.\"

One poster writes:

\"oh, goodness. bar the doors when they start talking in the third person.

sounds like leon, to me. haven\'t seen delhomme throw a backwards pass to his lineman yet. \"

LMAO. That\'s an ATLANTA FAN talking ish. Hey Billy, they must have some agenda-crazed fans in Atlanta huh? Those guys must want to see AB gone as much as we do, b/c they secretly love Delhomme also, right?

GumboBC · 04-04-2005, 02:59 PM

Lord, Lord ....

I hear the same ol\' things over and over.

Like Brooks \"locks\" on to Joe Horn. Or Brooks turns the ball over more than other QBs. I prove you guys wrong time after time and you still post that stuff on here.

But that\'s fine. If you don\'t want the truth and just want to talk \"smack\" then that\'s your business.

I\'m just not going to waste much time with it.

I don\'t think there\'s one person on here that thinks our offensive line doesn\'t need to improve GREATLY.

Like I said: \"Watch the ball -if you dare- but if the offensive line doesn\'t improve ... this whole thing just got a lot harder.

Not harder for Joe Horn or Decue McAllister necessarily. But getting the ball to the 2nd and 3rd receivers is gonna be a B*ITCH.

Not to mention the busted plays or the bad plays a terrible offensive line causes.

04-03-2005, 05:46 PM	#21
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020	Single most important factor for the offense Here is one for you GumboBC ..... There might not be an offensive tackle worth taking in the first round of the draft, including Florida State\'s Alex Barron. And now, there isn\'t a reason to reach for one, either NFL teams can pass-block, run-block and win games without premium talent at the offensive line position. The Patriots proved this lesson. They won the Super Bowl with a second-round pick, a fifth-round pick and three scrapheap pickups. The Falcons reinforced it. They led the league in rushing with three seventh-round picks, a fourth-round pick and a 2002 veteran free-agent pickup. The lesson was driven home by the Chargers, who were third in the NFL in points per game playing two rookies, a journeyman with his fourth team, a guard who had been considered a bust until last year and a 2004 veteran free-agent signee. Just because Walter Jones and Orlando Pace, the NFL\'s best left tackles, recently signed long-term deals with the Seahawks and Rams is not a reason for teams to panic and overpay free-agent tackles with Frankenstein feet. One of the most questionable signings of the free-agent period was the 49ers\' giving $36 million to Jonas Jennings. The left tackle will make the 49ers better, but they could have used their money more prudently. Falcons offensive line consultant Alex Gibbs prefers lower-round picks and undrafted free agents because he believes offensive linemen need to be developed and that high-round draft choices aren\'t afforded time or patience for development. It\'s an efficient philosophy on more than one front, enabling teams such as the Falcons to appropriate more salary cap space and cash to skill position players such as quarterback Michael Vick and tight end Alge Crumpler, both of whom recently signed lucrative extensions. Now, some teams are emphasizing offensive line coaches more than linemen. The Dolphins were happy to recently sign line coach Hudson Houck, who coached the Chargers\' line last season, to a deal worth $850,000 per year. \"The offensive line might be the position where coaching is more of a significant factor than any position,\" Bills general manager Tom Donahoe says. \"I think you need a premium offensive line coach, the guy who can take down-the-line guys and free agents and develop them into pretty good pros.\" A superior offensive line coach certainly can improve players\' techniques. But the way he can help his team most is by implementing a blocker-friendly scheme. \"You can take pressure off the blocker by running the ball, using the play-action pass,\" Falcons general manager Rich McKay says. \"If you are a team that has to throw 65 percent of the time and you\'re a dropback team, you\'re putting a lot of stress on your tackles. You better be able to protect.\" In part because of how the Patriots\' offense is set up, the team got away with using Brandon Gorin at right tackle this season after Tom Ashworth was injured. It\'s not that difficult to block for the Patriots\' skill position players. \"Corey Dillon is a back who sees the holes and gets into those holes quickly,\" Patriots line coach Dante Scarnecchia says. \"Tom Brady gets the ball out on rhythm, and we have receivers who can get in a pattern fast. That demands a lot less of your offensive line and makes it easier for them.\" Continuity and understanding also allow offensive linemen to play more effectively than their skills might suggest. \"The ability of the players to react in a coordinated manner is what makes a good offensive line,\" Browns line coach Jeff Davidson says. Scarnecchia and the Patriots are able to live with a tough offensive lineman who lacks ideal foot quickness, or one whose arms aren\'t quite long enough, or one who doesn\'t have as solid a base as they\'d prefer. It is a lesson other teams would be wise to absorb. http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/3505276
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020	\"Americans play to win at all times. I wouldn\'t give a hoot in hell for a man who lost and laughed.\" - George S. Patton On another note, I\'ll take a bite of that crow 08. - Saintfan Brooks is a moron!! - Halo

04-04-2005, 12:44 AM	#22
FireVenturi Cold as Ice! Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Da Big Easy Posts: 2,978	Single most important factor for the offense I dont care about any grades!!! we are not even in the top 20 at OL!!!!!

04-04-2005, 10:04 AM	#23
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Single most important factor for the offense Let me just say this. Whether you like Brooks or dislike him ... a QB needs time to throw the ball and that\'s the way it\'s always been and will always be. Well Billy, theoretically you\'re correct. But then, I wasn\'t arguing that point. The argument that a QB SHOULD perform better when he gets more time to throw is a pretty easy one to make. What I\'m suggesting is that the argument you made - essentially, if the line plays better the \"skill players\" will play better only seems to hold water when it comes to Deuce. Horn plays great no matter what. Brooks plays inconsistently no matter what. You can argue if you like, but Horn went to the Pro Bowl last year with a terrible line, and he went 3 and 4 years ago with a very good line. Brooks was inconsistent last year with a bad line and he was inconsistent before with a good line. Therefore, while theoretically speaking, your opinion makes sense, I am suggesting that as it relates to this team, it just hasn\'t been shown to make a difference in practice.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

04-04-2005, 10:13 AM	#24
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Single most important factor for the offense WhoDat -- I really feel like I shouldn\'t have to explain this to you but ... You like to make the argement that because Decue rushed for x-amount yards that that is an indication that our offensive line was pretty good. That couldn\'t be further from the truth and here\'s why: 1. Deuce is good enough that he\'s going to make the line look better than what it is. 2. Run blocking really doesn\'t have anything to do with pass blocking. Some offensive linemen are great at run blocking but lack the foot speed to pass block. And your arguement that Brooks struggles no matter how the offensive line plays is pretty ridiculous. And here\'s why: In 2003 our offensive line was terrible at pass blocking. It was pointed out many times by myself and others. Some of you still wanted to suggest that because Deuce rushed for 1600 yards that our offensive line was good. That was hardly the case. Also, the only good pass blocking line Brooks ever had was when Roaf and Turley was here. Brooks was a young improving QB that was going to make mistakes. Say what you want, WhoDat. The truth or the matter is Brooks needs more time in the pocket. Whether you THINK Brooks will still make mistakes is really irrelevent. [Edited on 4/4/2005 by GumboBC] [Edited on 4/4/2005 by GumboBC]
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

04-04-2005, 10:27 AM	#25
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Single most important factor for the offense Sure Billy. You\'re right. The thing that has kept Brooks from being the All-Pro that you know him to be is our line... er WRs... er coaching/play calling.... er fans. Whatever, it\'s all their fault!!! Jake Delhomme had a worse line and a better QB rating. Peyton Manning doesn\'t need as much time as AB - he get the ball out more quickly.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631

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04-04-2005, 11:46 AM	#26
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Single most important factor for the offense Sure Billy. You\'re right. The thing that has kept Brooks from being the All-Pro that you know him to be is our line... er WRs... er coaching/play calling.... er fans. Whatever, it\'s all their fault!!! Jake Delhomme had a worse line and a better QB rating. Peyton Manning doesn\'t need as much time as AB - he get the ball out more quickly. The Panthers did not have a worse line than ours. But that\'s just my opinion. And you are entilted to your opinion. The only game I saw Jake get a lot of pressure was in the last game against us. And Jake really really struggled. Brooks faced that kind of pressure on almost a weekly basis. Anyway, I hope we have a much better O-line this year. I honestly believe that is the single most important factor for the offense. [Edited on 4/4/2005 by GumboBC]
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

04-04-2005, 12:16 PM	#27
GoldenTomb 500th Post Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 591	Single most important factor for the offense Oh come on now.....I saw numerous times where Brooks was in the pocket for 5+ seconds and just had that Thousand-yard stare going on. I agree that O-line has been a huge problem but if Brooks could read defenses, he could\'ve had a few more completions and a few less INTs and fumbles. Does the o-line make you throw off your back foot? Does the o-line make you throw endzone INTs? Does the o-line deprive you of the ability to hit any of your recievers in stride? Does the o-line make you throw inverted passes(still don\'t know how he did that)? Does the o-line make you fumble the ball? Sacks are the what the o-line is at fault for. Not INTs, fumbles, or completely bone head plays. Fumbles 2004 - 13 2003 - 14 2002 - 11 2001 - 13 Seems like even when he had the \"superior\" line he was still fumbling. [Edited on 4/4/2005 by GoldenTomb]
GoldenTomb 500th Post Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 591

04-04-2005, 12:47 PM	#28
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020	Single most important factor for the offense Special WhoDat link ..... http://boards.atlantafalcons.com/lof...hp?t62199.html And they say were bad ..... :rollinglaugh:
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020

04-04-2005, 02:27 PM	#29
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Single most important factor for the offense ROFLMFAO. 08 - That made my day. My favorite post: In response to Brooks\' comments in which he said: \"I really don\'t have much to say to none of y\'all,\" he said. \"I said after the game that I\'d be laughing at y\'all, the fake experts in the media. All y\'all been talking (expletive) on Aaron Brooks.\" One poster writes: \"oh, goodness. bar the doors when they start talking in the third person. sounds like leon, to me. haven\'t seen delhomme throw a backwards pass to his lineman yet. \" LMAO. That\'s an ATLANTA FAN talking ish. Hey Billy, they must have some agenda-crazed fans in Atlanta huh? Those guys must want to see AB gone as much as we do, b/c they secretly love Delhomme also, right?
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

04-04-2005, 02:59 PM	#30
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Single most important factor for the offense Lord, Lord .... I hear the same ol\' things over and over. Like Brooks \"locks\" on to Joe Horn. Or Brooks turns the ball over more than other QBs. I prove you guys wrong time after time and you still post that stuff on here. But that\'s fine. If you don\'t want the truth and just want to talk \"smack\" then that\'s your business. I\'m just not going to waste much time with it. I don\'t think there\'s one person on here that thinks our offensive line doesn\'t need to improve GREATLY. Like I said: \"Watch the ball -if you dare- but if the offensive line doesn\'t improve ... this whole thing just got a lot harder. Not harder for Joe Horn or Decue McAllister necessarily. But getting the ball to the 2nd and 3rd receivers is gonna be a B*ITCH. Not to mention the busted plays or the bad plays a terrible offensive line causes.
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616