Optimist vs Pessimist

saintswhodi · 04-08-2005, 07:55 PM

Ya know, that statement was not meant as a direct relation to you, it was a comment on your smoke and mirrors approach. The wizard was a fraud who used smoke and mirrors, and I used in as to how I saw the current approach you are using. You are not a fraud(most times, remember the AB QB challenge thread

), but this smoke and mirrors approach to your argument was IMO. Don\'t take it personal. We are beyond those days.

Second thing, I won\'t even continue with this debate, it shows me clearly why I decided to refrain a month or so back. You don\'t read what is said to you, introduce items from previous arguments that have no bearing on this one, and make the same statements over and over and never discuss their rebuttles. Maybe someone else can have some fun continuing.

GumboBC · 04-08-2005, 08:04 PM

Ya know, that statement was not meant as a direct relation to you, it was a comment on your smoke and mirrors approach. The wizard was a fraud who used smoke and mirrors, and I used in as to how I saw the current approach you are using. You are not a fraud(most times, remember the AB QB challenge thread ), but this smoke and mirrors approach to your argument was IMO. Don\'t take it personal. We are beyond those days.

Second thing, I won\'t even continue with this debate, it shows me clearly why I decided to refrain a month or so back. You don\'t read what is said to you, introduce items from previous arguments that have no bearing on this one, and make the same statements over and over and never discuss their rebuttles. Maybe someone else can have some fun continuing.

Just so I\'m clear, saintwhodi ... I really don\'t take many things personally. What you said REALLY didn\'t bother me at all.

However, its become clear to me that the guys who run this board have a hard time controlling things and I really don\'t want to put them in the middle of it. I think Halo and JoeSam will tell you that I\'ve caused my fair share of problems here at B&G and they\'ve been very fair to me and I just want to treat them with more respect. Not that I won\'t stir the pot at times, though ...

Oh yeah ... I read what you post but you get so far off track and I just bring it back on point. That\'s all I\'m doing.

We can drop this discussion. No hard feelings.

[Edited on 9/4/2005 by GumboBC]

JKool · 04-08-2005, 08:42 PM

(1) Arguments can be made with our making comments about the other posters\' intentions. This is where many things get way off track. If someone is not responding to items put forth in a way you feel is adquate, it suffices to ask them to respond - if they do not, drop it. Furthermore, comments about other posters\' behaviors is almost always irrelevant information wise. Sure lots of us feel like we\'re friends here and have a good time poking fun at each other, but I feel like sometimes it sets a bad example for new posters. So in my role as a moderator, I ask people to please stop trying to figure out why people do things on the main forum (you can always PM them or put it in the everything else board). Just so no one takes this the wrong way: that is for everyone, and I do it only insofar as my job description seems to make it necessary.

(2) Imagine someone gave you the following argument:
1. The Super Bowl can be won by teams that turns the ball over nearly 30 times (and it has happened at least twice)
2. A given team, call it X, turns the ball over 25 times.
Therefore,
3. Team X didn\'t win the SB because of turnovers.
Which entails,
4. Team X didn\'t make the playoffs because of turnovers.

Does that argument sound right?

I think that turnovers do matter, but it isn\'t actually the number of them that matters most. It is the nature of the turnover - that is why there is a stat for points off turnovers. That isn\'t even the most important thing to consider - it seems to me when during the game the turnover occurs, where on the field, the score at the time and so on. Thus, turnovers is an ambiguous stat when evaluating an offense. This is why Whodi\'s red zone turnover stat is more interesting than a general turnover stat.

(3) No one player is responsible for our offensive or defensive rankings. Sure arguments can be made for how much of the responsibility lies on one player, but any argument that points to just one guy in a team game give me reason to pause.

[Edited on 9/4/2005 by JKool]

spkb25 · 04-08-2005, 09:03 PM

hey gumbo is always good to get some post out of people. got to like that. im not even sure he beleives what he says. even if he does were all the better for it

saintswhodi · 04-08-2005, 10:38 PM

Oh yeah ... I read what you post but you get so far off track and I just bring it back on point. That\'s all I\'m doing.

Like I said, smoke and mirrors. But let me show you why

Question one, did Jake or AB lead the league in LOST FUMBLES? AB. Was Jake a first year starter, or 3rd year like AB? First. Jake had 22 total turnovers, AB had 19, yeah huge difference. Nice call. How did the Panthers make the Superbowl? A LOT of good fortune, and a QB with a heart and half a brain.

Question 2, because we had Deuce and Joe Horn, and an awesome rookie season from Donte for the time he played. Little to do with a twenty turnover 53.6% cpmpletion percentage QB. Your turn.

I directly answered both questions in response to this from you Gum

Nice try. But ... I\'m not going to let you turn the table on me. NO SIR.

As soon as you answer my questions then we can move on to your little stat analysis.

which not only didn\'t happen, but went off onto a tangent. Like I said, smoke and mirrors. It\'s all good bro. No hard feelings. I know you gotta do your thing to keep it hopping around here, and defending some of the points you make doesn\'t do that so there\'s other little tricks to use. IT\'s all good. We have plenty more times to disagree about our boy. Have a good one.

FireVenturi · 04-09-2005, 01:04 AM

Question one, did Jake or AB lead the league in LOST FUMBLES? AB. Was Jake a first year starter, or 3rd year like AB? First. Jake had 22 total turnovers, AB had 19, yeah huge difference. Nice call. How did the Panthers make the Superbowl? A LOT of good fortune, and a QB with a heart and half a brain.

Question 2, because we had Deuce and Joe Horn, and an awesome rookie season from Donte for the time he played. Little to do with a twenty turnover 53.6% cpmpletion percentage QB. Your turn.

Actually whodi they made the SB because of a top rated D!!! That did make a little difference!

LKelley67 · 04-09-2005, 01:54 AM

how come realists get labeled pessimists?
LOL
ya know it happens in most things beyond the saints world as well.

Danno · 04-09-2005, 08:02 AM

how come realists get labeled pessimists?
LOL
ya know it happens in most things beyond the saints world as well.

I\'d venture to say that most pessimists just feel they\'re being realists.
Some people just focus on whats wrong. (Pessimists)
Some people just focus on whats right. (Optimists)
I think both sides think they\'re realists and feel the other side are idiots.

mutineer10 · 04-09-2005, 09:44 AM

I think that turnovers do matter, but it isn\'t actually the number of them that matters most. It is the nature of the turnover - that is why there is a stat for points off turnovers. That isn\'t even the most important thing to consider - it seems to me when during the game the turnover occurs, where on the field, the score at the time and so on. Thus, turnovers is an ambiguous stat when evaluating an offense. This is why Whodi\'s red zone turnover stat is more interesting than a general turnover stat.

To continue in that vein, it\'s also important to consider the turnover ratio of the entire team. I\'ve not looked up the stats officially, but I remeber the \'03 Panthers pretty well, and I\'d venture to say they had a pretty good overall turnover ratio in spite of how many times JD turned the ball over.

I\'ve never been shy in my criicisms of AB, but I\'ll not go so far as to say I think he\'s the only thing keeping us back. Football is a team game, and unique in the fact that offenses and defenses are seperate units with different players entirely. It takes a strong effort on both sides of the ball to win the big one.

WhoDat · 04-09-2005, 10:04 AM

I\'d venture to say that most pessimists just feel they\'re being realists.
Some people just focus on whats wrong. (Pessimists)
Some people just focus on whats right. (Optimists)
I think both sides think they\'re realists and feel the other side are idiots.

You\'re probably right, but then how could you feel you\'re realistic when you\'ve consistently predicted that the Saints would be 11-5, 12-4, or 13-3, would go to the playoffs, would have a top 10 defense, and would have a top 5 offense behind a pro bowl QB????

Zero right, but \"some fans\" still know what\'s really going on around here. LMAO.

04-08-2005, 07:55 PM	#21
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Optimist vs Pessimist Ya know, that statement was not meant as a direct relation to you, it was a comment on your smoke and mirrors approach. The wizard was a fraud who used smoke and mirrors, and I used in as to how I saw the current approach you are using. You are not a fraud(most times, remember the AB QB challenge thread ), but this smoke and mirrors approach to your argument was IMO. Don\'t take it personal. We are beyond those days. Second thing, I won\'t even continue with this debate, it shows me clearly why I decided to refrain a month or so back. You don\'t read what is said to you, introduce items from previous arguments that have no bearing on this one, and make the same statements over and over and never discuss their rebuttles. Maybe someone else can have some fun continuing.

04-08-2005, 08:04 PM	#22
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Optimist vs Pessimist Ya know, that statement was not meant as a direct relation to you, it was a comment on your smoke and mirrors approach. The wizard was a fraud who used smoke and mirrors, and I used in as to how I saw the current approach you are using. You are not a fraud(most times, remember the AB QB challenge thread ), but this smoke and mirrors approach to your argument was IMO. Don\'t take it personal. We are beyond those days. Second thing, I won\'t even continue with this debate, it shows me clearly why I decided to refrain a month or so back. You don\'t read what is said to you, introduce items from previous arguments that have no bearing on this one, and make the same statements over and over and never discuss their rebuttles. Maybe someone else can have some fun continuing. Just so I\'m clear, saintwhodi ... I really don\'t take many things personally. What you said REALLY didn\'t bother me at all. However, its become clear to me that the guys who run this board have a hard time controlling things and I really don\'t want to put them in the middle of it. I think Halo and JoeSam will tell you that I\'ve caused my fair share of problems here at B&G and they\'ve been very fair to me and I just want to treat them with more respect. Not that I won\'t stir the pot at times, though ... Oh yeah ... I read what you post but you get so far off track and I just bring it back on point. That\'s all I\'m doing. We can drop this discussion. No hard feelings. [Edited on 9/4/2005 by GumboBC]
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

04-08-2005, 08:42 PM	#23
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Optimist vs Pessimist (1) Arguments can be made with our making comments about the other posters\' intentions. This is where many things get way off track. If someone is not responding to items put forth in a way you feel is adquate, it suffices to ask them to respond - if they do not, drop it. Furthermore, comments about other posters\' behaviors is almost always irrelevant information wise. Sure lots of us feel like we\'re friends here and have a good time poking fun at each other, but I feel like sometimes it sets a bad example for new posters. So in my role as a moderator, I ask people to please stop trying to figure out why people do things on the main forum (you can always PM them or put it in the everything else board). Just so no one takes this the wrong way: that is for everyone, and I do it only insofar as my job description seems to make it necessary. (2) Imagine someone gave you the following argument: 1. The Super Bowl can be won by teams that turns the ball over nearly 30 times (and it has happened at least twice) 2. A given team, call it X, turns the ball over 25 times. Therefore, 3. Team X didn\'t win the SB because of turnovers. Which entails, 4. Team X didn\'t make the playoffs because of turnovers. Does that argument sound right? I think that turnovers do matter, but it isn\'t actually the number of them that matters most. It is the nature of the turnover - that is why there is a stat for points off turnovers. That isn\'t even the most important thing to consider - it seems to me when during the game the turnover occurs, where on the field, the score at the time and so on. Thus, turnovers is an ambiguous stat when evaluating an offense. This is why Whodi\'s red zone turnover stat is more interesting than a general turnover stat. (3) No one player is responsible for our offensive or defensive rankings. Sure arguments can be made for how much of the responsibility lies on one player, but any argument that points to just one guy in a team game give me reason to pause. [Edited on 9/4/2005 by JKool]
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

04-08-2005, 09:03 PM	#24
spkb25 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 13,097	Optimist vs Pessimist hey gumbo is always good to get some post out of people. got to like that. im not even sure he beleives what he says. even if he does were all the better for it

04-08-2005, 10:38 PM	#25
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Optimist vs Pessimist Oh yeah ... I read what you post but you get so far off track and I just bring it back on point. That\'s all I\'m doing. Like I said, smoke and mirrors. But let me show you why Question one, did Jake or AB lead the league in LOST FUMBLES? AB. Was Jake a first year starter, or 3rd year like AB? First. Jake had 22 total turnovers, AB had 19, yeah huge difference. Nice call. How did the Panthers make the Superbowl? A LOT of good fortune, and a QB with a heart and half a brain. Question 2, because we had Deuce and Joe Horn, and an awesome rookie season from Donte for the time he played. Little to do with a twenty turnover 53.6% cpmpletion percentage QB. Your turn. I directly answered both questions in response to this from you Gum Nice try. But ... I\'m not going to let you turn the table on me. NO SIR. As soon as you answer my questions then we can move on to your little stat analysis. which not only didn\'t happen, but went off onto a tangent. Like I said, smoke and mirrors. It\'s all good bro. No hard feelings. I know you gotta do your thing to keep it hopping around here, and defending some of the points you make doesn\'t do that so there\'s other little tricks to use. IT\'s all good. We have plenty more times to disagree about our boy. Have a good one.

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04-09-2005, 01:04 AM	#26
FireVenturi Cold as Ice! Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Da Big Easy Posts: 2,978	Optimist vs Pessimist Question one, did Jake or AB lead the league in LOST FUMBLES? AB. Was Jake a first year starter, or 3rd year like AB? First. Jake had 22 total turnovers, AB had 19, yeah huge difference. Nice call. How did the Panthers make the Superbowl? A LOT of good fortune, and a QB with a heart and half a brain. Question 2, because we had Deuce and Joe Horn, and an awesome rookie season from Donte for the time he played. Little to do with a twenty turnover 53.6% cpmpletion percentage QB. Your turn. Actually whodi they made the SB because of a top rated D!!! That did make a little difference!

04-09-2005, 01:54 AM	#27
LKelley67 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: baton rouge Posts: 2,540	Optimist vs Pessimist how come realists get labeled pessimists? LOL ya know it happens in most things beyond the saints world as well.

04-09-2005, 08:02 AM	#28
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,720	Optimist vs Pessimist how come realists get labeled pessimists? LOL ya know it happens in most things beyond the saints world as well. I\'d venture to say that most pessimists just feel they\'re being realists. Some people just focus on whats wrong. (Pessimists) Some people just focus on whats right. (Optimists) I think both sides think they\'re realists and feel the other side are idiots.

04-09-2005, 09:44 AM	#29
mutineer10 Site Donor Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baton Rouge, LA Posts: 1,739	Optimist vs Pessimist I think that turnovers do matter, but it isn\'t actually the number of them that matters most. It is the nature of the turnover - that is why there is a stat for points off turnovers. That isn\'t even the most important thing to consider - it seems to me when during the game the turnover occurs, where on the field, the score at the time and so on. Thus, turnovers is an ambiguous stat when evaluating an offense. This is why Whodi\'s red zone turnover stat is more interesting than a general turnover stat. To continue in that vein, it\'s also important to consider the turnover ratio of the entire team. I\'ve not looked up the stats officially, but I remeber the \'03 Panthers pretty well, and I\'d venture to say they had a pretty good overall turnover ratio in spite of how many times JD turned the ball over. I\'ve never been shy in my criicisms of AB, but I\'ll not go so far as to say I think he\'s the only thing keeping us back. Football is a team game, and unique in the fact that offenses and defenses are seperate units with different players entirely. It takes a strong effort on both sides of the ball to win the big one.

04-09-2005, 10:04 AM	#30
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Optimist vs Pessimist I\'d venture to say that most pessimists just feel they\'re being realists. Some people just focus on whats wrong. (Pessimists) Some people just focus on whats right. (Optimists) I think both sides think they\'re realists and feel the other side are idiots. You\'re probably right, but then how could you feel you\'re realistic when you\'ve consistently predicted that the Saints would be 11-5, 12-4, or 13-3, would go to the playoffs, would have a top 10 defense, and would have a top 5 offense behind a pro bowl QB???? Zero right, but \"some fans\" still know what\'s really going on around here. LMAO.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631