oakland ups ante for howard

saintswhodi · 04-16-2005, 09:42 PM

Yes, even with Howard\'s 11 sacks we were LAST in the NFL in yardage allowed. I am glad he got 11 sacks, maybe that is a negotiation point that will allow us to get more for him than we normally would have. IF we get pick #38, and it allows us to move up for DJ, AND still have another second, who is gonna be mad at that? Noone. The 2nd round pick is much more than just a value for Howard. It sets the table for us to make more moves in the draft, besides the benefits of having the money to sign our draft picks and extend contracts. There somes a point when we need to stop overvaluing players just cause they wear black and gold. Howard has been injured the past two years. He himself was a 2nd round pick. Teams in this era are placing a premium on draft picks. Better players than Howard are being shopped for less than a first. Howard should not be on this team next year unless we wanna have more headaches than we need. I asked before, is Howard the key for us making the Superbowl? Hell no. Then he can go. And a high second sounds mighty nice. Even if we don\'t use it to trade up for DJ, having a first and two seconds in a deep draft seems like a good idea to me.

zachsaints52 · 04-16-2005, 09:49 PM

I totally agree saintswhodi.

LKelley67 · 04-17-2005, 01:16 AM

from raiders inside slant-

Certainly, the Raiders would prefer to send Woodson not just out of
the AFC West but out of the AFC altogether. They are believed to
covet New Orleans defensive end Darren Howard, who is also being
franchised.

A straight swap of Woodson for Howard would give the Raiders the
pass rush force they desperately are seeking (11 sacks, 4 forced
fumbles in 2004) and by signing Howard long term, a bonus
arrangement would free up cap space. Unfortunately, the truth of the
matter is that the Saints aren\'t really shopping for secondary help
and whether they could reach a deal with the Postons (the stumbling
block on all trade talk) is iffy.

JKool · 04-17-2005, 02:02 AM

I suppose it is possible that a second round pick this year is not worth more than Howard\'s next full year of production for us and then losing him next year with no compensation, but I am skeptical. It strikes me that we need a lot of help on D, and we just aren\'t gaining that much by keeping Howard. Everybody is in love with Bockwoldt, and he was a seventh rounder, I don\'t think that a second is a bad deal for Howard.

I also agree with Whodi. The extra second round pick will give us more options in trades come draft day - but I think Howard does that too.

I\'d take Woodson if we could seriously restructure his contract, but that might well mean not being able to seal some long term deals the same way Howard is right now. I guess, I\'m not sold on dealing for Woodson unless I knew some of the details of his impending contract.

zach, buddy, you\'re very agreeable this evening.

Whodi, I know this is going to sound silly, but \"no one\" is two words, not one (\"noone\"). I wouldn\'t mention it normally, since I find people correcting spelling, etc. on a web board a bit annoying some days, but I read all of your posts (as you know) and I can\'t help but find that one thing distracting.

ssmitty · 04-17-2005, 05:49 AM

while i\'d love to have dj, everything would have to fall in place. the trade would have to take place with a team on the clock and dj still available.........
too much risk factor other than that. even getting a second will leave you with just another pick if you can\'t cut a deal. so, that\'s just an unproven for a polished player. not a good deal when you look at it that way...........smitty

ssmitty · 04-17-2005, 06:04 AM

ricks early mock draft has 2 qbs, 3 rbs, 2 cbs, and 2 wrs, going at the top........while i don\'t look for every team to follow suit to this, realistically dj could be there at 10. now, who say, from 6-10 really needs and would take and rework a long term contract for howard? this is what it really boils down to in order to have a shot of getting up there. smitty

GoldenTomb · 04-17-2005, 11:20 AM

while i\'d love to have dj, everything would have to fall in place. the trade would have to take place with a team on the clock and dj still available.........
too much risk factor other than that. even getting a second will leave you with just another pick if you can\'t cut a deal. so, that\'s just an unproven for a polished player. not a good deal when you look at it that way...........smitty

I still think that people don\'t really grap the fact that Howard WILL NOT be here this season. Maybe it\'s denial.

Howard is more of a liability than he is an asset, due to his $7.8 mil cap figure. That is a lot of money, even in the NFL. We simply can\'t afford to keep him. No ifs, ands, or buts. Would you rather us get an \"unproven\" player, as you say, this year for Howard, or get absolutely squat for him next year? The draft pick will provide many more years of servicable play, while Howard would be around for only 2005.

Yeah everything would have to fall into place to get DJ but we have to at least put ourselves into a reasonable position to do it, if we are to have a shot at getting him.

JKool · 04-17-2005, 01:21 PM

I\'m with you GT.

A second round pick and 7.8 mil in extra space to rework deals with McKenzie, McAllister, Bentley, and Grant (and sign our rookies too) is of greater value than a third DE, even if it is Howard and his 11 sacks.

I don\'t think the extra second will allow us to move up to get DJ, but he isn\'t the only player who can help us. And, I agree, that the \"unproven guy\" may be a guy who later replaces one of our aging players - extending our window.

Howard is a luxury (as he is a third starting quality DE). We cannot afford luxuries when we cannot stop the run. We need to move him for someone who will start (or will start soon) much more than we need to keep him as a rotational player.

And we cannot afford to keep him and sign our rookies. I\'m not just saying that. We have 1 mil in cap space, and we need about 3.8 mil to sign a decent draft class.

LKelley67 · 04-17-2005, 01:35 PM

succinctly said kool. all you keep howard unless we get a first people do the math.

4 million needed to sign drafted players

current cap room 1 million

-3 million cap deficit

you cannot sign players and go negative on the cap without harsh penalties from the league. howard will have to go before we can even bring those players into camp.

that is not even beginning to address the room needed to negotiate extenstions for deuce, bentley, etc.

if woodson could be negotiated into a reasonable deal we might even get some pick with him. the raiders are at just a few thousand dollars of cap room and cw is gonna cost them 10mil+ tagged. their need to move him is much greater than n.o.

pakowitz · 04-17-2005, 02:19 PM

not only would the cap space be wonderful but there is a lot of talent in this draft....alot of players can fall anywhere from late first to early 3rd so during that part of the draft its just a crap shoot as to where players will end up and an extra 2nd rounder will give us a better chance at getting someone we highly covet in that range

the luxury of having to early 2nd round picks......not only do u get someone who is just as talented as someone who is taken in the late 1st round but he is about 1/3 the cost!!!

04-16-2005, 09:42 PM	#61
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	oakland ups ante for howard Yes, even with Howard\'s 11 sacks we were LAST in the NFL in yardage allowed. I am glad he got 11 sacks, maybe that is a negotiation point that will allow us to get more for him than we normally would have. IF we get pick #38, and it allows us to move up for DJ, AND still have another second, who is gonna be mad at that? Noone. The 2nd round pick is much more than just a value for Howard. It sets the table for us to make more moves in the draft, besides the benefits of having the money to sign our draft picks and extend contracts. There somes a point when we need to stop overvaluing players just cause they wear black and gold. Howard has been injured the past two years. He himself was a 2nd round pick. Teams in this era are placing a premium on draft picks. Better players than Howard are being shopped for less than a first. Howard should not be on this team next year unless we wanna have more headaches than we need. I asked before, is Howard the key for us making the Superbowl? Hell no. Then he can go. And a high second sounds mighty nice. Even if we don\'t use it to trade up for DJ, having a first and two seconds in a deep draft seems like a good idea to me.

04-16-2005, 09:49 PM	#62
zachsaints52 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Abingdon, Virginia Posts: 522	oakland ups ante for howard I totally agree saintswhodi.

04-17-2005, 01:16 AM	#63
LKelley67 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: baton rouge Posts: 2,540	oakland ups ante for howard from raiders inside slant- Certainly, the Raiders would prefer to send Woodson not just out of the AFC West but out of the AFC altogether. They are believed to covet New Orleans defensive end Darren Howard, who is also being franchised. A straight swap of Woodson for Howard would give the Raiders the pass rush force they desperately are seeking (11 sacks, 4 forced fumbles in 2004) and by signing Howard long term, a bonus arrangement would free up cap space. Unfortunately, the truth of the matter is that the Saints aren\'t really shopping for secondary help and whether they could reach a deal with the Postons (the stumbling block on all trade talk) is iffy.

04-17-2005, 02:02 AM	#64
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	oakland ups ante for howard I suppose it is possible that a second round pick this year is not worth more than Howard\'s next full year of production for us and then losing him next year with no compensation, but I am skeptical. It strikes me that we need a lot of help on D, and we just aren\'t gaining that much by keeping Howard. Everybody is in love with Bockwoldt, and he was a seventh rounder, I don\'t think that a second is a bad deal for Howard. I also agree with Whodi. The extra second round pick will give us more options in trades come draft day - but I think Howard does that too. I\'d take Woodson if we could seriously restructure his contract, but that might well mean not being able to seal some long term deals the same way Howard is right now. I guess, I\'m not sold on dealing for Woodson unless I knew some of the details of his impending contract. zach, buddy, you\'re very agreeable this evening. Whodi, I know this is going to sound silly, but \"no one\" is two words, not one (\"noone\"). I wouldn\'t mention it normally, since I find people correcting spelling, etc. on a web board a bit annoying some days, but I read all of your posts (as you know) and I can\'t help but find that one thing distracting.
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

04-17-2005, 05:49 AM	#65
ssmitty 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,879	oakland ups ante for howard while i\'d love to have dj, everything would have to fall in place. the trade would have to take place with a team on the clock and dj still available......... too much risk factor other than that. even getting a second will leave you with just another pick if you can\'t cut a deal. so, that\'s just an unproven for a polished player. not a good deal when you look at it that way...........smitty
ssmitty 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,879

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04-17-2005, 06:04 AM	#66
ssmitty 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,879	oakland ups ante for howard ricks early mock draft has 2 qbs, 3 rbs, 2 cbs, and 2 wrs, going at the top........while i don\'t look for every team to follow suit to this, realistically dj could be there at 10. now, who say, from 6-10 really needs and would take and rework a long term contract for howard? this is what it really boils down to in order to have a shot of getting up there. smitty
ssmitty 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,879

04-17-2005, 11:20 AM	#67
GoldenTomb 500th Post Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 591	oakland ups ante for howard while i\'d love to have dj, everything would have to fall in place. the trade would have to take place with a team on the clock and dj still available......... too much risk factor other than that. even getting a second will leave you with just another pick if you can\'t cut a deal. so, that\'s just an unproven for a polished player. not a good deal when you look at it that way...........smitty I still think that people don\'t really grap the fact that Howard WILL NOT be here this season. Maybe it\'s denial. Howard is more of a liability than he is an asset, due to his $7.8 mil cap figure. That is a lot of money, even in the NFL. We simply can\'t afford to keep him. No ifs, ands, or buts. Would you rather us get an \"unproven\" player, as you say, this year for Howard, or get absolutely squat for him next year? The draft pick will provide many more years of servicable play, while Howard would be around for only 2005. Yeah everything would have to fall into place to get DJ but we have to at least put ourselves into a reasonable position to do it, if we are to have a shot at getting him.
GoldenTomb 500th Post Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 591

04-17-2005, 01:21 PM	#68
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	oakland ups ante for howard I\'m with you GT. A second round pick and 7.8 mil in extra space to rework deals with McKenzie, McAllister, Bentley, and Grant (and sign our rookies too) is of greater value than a third DE, even if it is Howard and his 11 sacks. I don\'t think the extra second will allow us to move up to get DJ, but he isn\'t the only player who can help us. And, I agree, that the \"unproven guy\" may be a guy who later replaces one of our aging players - extending our window. Howard is a luxury (as he is a third starting quality DE). We cannot afford luxuries when we cannot stop the run. We need to move him for someone who will start (or will start soon) much more than we need to keep him as a rotational player. And we cannot afford to keep him and sign our rookies. I\'m not just saying that. We have 1 mil in cap space, and we need about 3.8 mil to sign a decent draft class.
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

04-17-2005, 01:35 PM	#69
LKelley67 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: baton rouge Posts: 2,540	oakland ups ante for howard succinctly said kool. all you keep howard unless we get a first people do the math. 4 million needed to sign drafted players current cap room 1 million -3 million cap deficit you cannot sign players and go negative on the cap without harsh penalties from the league. howard will have to go before we can even bring those players into camp. that is not even beginning to address the room needed to negotiate extenstions for deuce, bentley, etc. if woodson could be negotiated into a reasonable deal we might even get some pick with him. the raiders are at just a few thousand dollars of cap room and cw is gonna cost them 10mil+ tagged. their need to move him is much greater than n.o.

04-17-2005, 02:19 PM	#70
pakowitz The Dark Overlord Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,450	oakland ups ante for howard not only would the cap space be wonderful but there is a lot of talent in this draft....alot of players can fall anywhere from late first to early 3rd so during that part of the draft its just a crap shoot as to where players will end up and an extra 2nd rounder will give us a better chance at getting someone we highly covet in that range the luxury of having to early 2nd round picks......not only do u get someone who is just as talented as someone who is taken in the late 1st round but he is about 1/3 the cost!!!
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