oakland ups ante for howard

LKelley67 · 04-17-2005, 03:36 PM

see denver trade rumor pak. i think you\'ll like my math there.

ssmitty · 04-17-2005, 03:44 PM

as i said before, i\'d rather have howard play this yr and get squat for him next yr..........at least i know i have a player...smitty

LKelley67 · 04-17-2005, 03:46 PM

smitty, so all contract extensions are put off? somebody will HAVE TO BE cut then to clear some money space for the draft picks. We need 3-4 million lopped off for that. If not Howard, who then?

saintswhodi · 04-17-2005, 04:26 PM

smitty, so all contract extensions are put off? somebody will HAVE TO BE cut then to clear some money space for the draft picks. We need 3-4 million lopped off for that. If not Howard, who then?

Exactly. :casstet:

ssmitty · 04-17-2005, 06:47 PM

look, while in reality howard may be gone, he\'s still here for the time being...........as far as finding money, contracts are reworked all the time..........as long as a player gets what they want and everyone is happy, who cares? is duece unreplaceable? what it gets down to is the same situation as howard, sort of........you do your time, and you want the mucho cash..............bottom line..........guys, girls, i do understand what you\'re saying and while you\'re antsy now, if everything falls apart and howard is here, we will find the money and the way, for this yr. i mean, look at mckenzie, we gave a 2nd for him, did\'nt we? you don\'t think this man will want mucho cash? hell, they all will, those that prove themselves. bottom line again, we have a time frame to build and win (where is new england\'s recipe when you need it) and in that time frame we not only need to lock up the key players, but the key back ups as well for at least a few yrs once everything is in place. are we there? time was i thought we were close, but no, we are not there and as of now, not that close as i thought we were............smitty

JKool · 04-17-2005, 07:40 PM

I don\'t think I understand your point ssmitty. I\'m just being honest here, it isn\'t a criticism.

A bunch of us have pointed out a variety of problems with keeping Howard. The simplest problem is that we will have to rework a number of contracts just to sign Howard along with our draft picks. Secondarily, it is highly likely that we\'ll lose him next offseason anyway and we will get nothing. I just don\'t see why that sounds like a \"we\'ll be fine\" kind of situation - that sounds bad to me.

I\'m not antsy to move Howard. If Howard were asking for 3 mil a year and some signing bonus, then I\'d certainly be all for keeping him. He isn\'t.

He can get us roughly 11 sacks this year or a 2nd round draft pick - which is what he was. So the idea that getting a 2nd rounder is like getting nothing makes no sense to me.

Please tell the Titans how contracts can always be reworked to \"make it happen.\" It is simply not the case that there is always something that can be done.

I\'m not sure why people don\'t buy that the cap is a serious stumbling block. LK\'s math seems flawless to me. It is not like we have a lot of guys with big contracts who will rework so that we can keep Howard, who will be in a 3 man rotation rather than a true starter. I guess people must think, sheesh, when guys like Gandy, Brooks, and Horn hear that they have to \"rework\" their contracts so we can keep Howard and sign our draft picks, they\'ll be overjoyed. That will certainly improve the reputation of our organization and help us retain and attract quality players.

The Titans are the most recent example of what happens when you don\'t play smart with the cap (or you blow your load and don\'t come through).

ssmitty · 04-18-2005, 06:11 AM

jk, i believe only one player needs their contract reworked this yr. if that is the case even a player with 2yrs remaining may not jump to sign an extension offered.......like i said, they all want the big bucks. the titans, we are not.........i never said if we don\'t get a first keep howard. i simply questioned why howard would\'nt be worth at least a first. truth is, besides the rumors, where we ever really offered something concrete? i don\'t recall seeing anything..........and, while we are where we are, i\'d still like to see how smith does this yr. he is very promising but i\'m still not sold.....
as a few have pointed out, we always seem to get rid of the right ones and keep the wrong ones......
why do we always seem to get more project players that go backwards instead of forward? and finally on a different subject i still believe to this day that jake shoulda been our qb. the man\'s a player and we let him go. after that, i thought jt would be next in line, but we let him go too. another player gone.......and so here we are with hot and cold brooks.....a defense that still needs a lot of help and many wishes...smitty

LKelley67 · 04-18-2005, 08:37 AM

--i am not up on the status of every contract but the team has voiced desire to rework deuce, bentley, and mckenzie to longer terms. though being contracted this year, it is prudent for both the team and player to extend. the team identifies the core players needed for a plan of success and then has them tied down for a few years. the terms of an extension usually result in net lower cap impact to the team in the first few years of the contract. (most nfl contracts are fantasy fluff on the backend these days, money that player will never see. ie wr muhammed carolina this winter). the player attains longer security.
i think enough case has been made on other threads if not this one about the market value of howard. somewher between randy moss (1st & a player) and gerard warren (4th). seldom do you see the negotiating and the offers made unless it has reached an impasse like arizona n buffalo in the shelton for henry deal. jerry jones said the teams couldn\'t agree on compensation. so, some kinda offer was made.
i\'m not trying to be contentious either smitty, but you did say you would rather have howard this season and get squat next year. that could happen but you never offered any suggestions to what other players would be cut to create salary cap room in that case. your preference may be to put off negotiations with deuce, bentley, and mckenzie and let them hit the free market. even if it is though, i think the fo has made it clear they want to make these happen before the coming season begins. that reality must be addressed as well as the draft picks salaries/bonuses somehow.
as far as this current administrations abilities i have sang the blues about that too much for some here already. i hope to no end for the team\'s success. i may not have a lot of faith this group can do it but i ain\'t gonna give up now after 38 years.

ssmitty · 04-18-2005, 02:59 PM

well, we kinda screwed ourselves with tebucky, did\'nt we? what does sullivan count against it? how about bouman? and deals are supposed to be in the works for thomas, boo, and maybe more........and just for arguements sake, what is brooks counting against it? if it\'s more than 100 dollars i say rework it immediately...........i think they will find a way either way, really.........don\'t you? smitty

JKool · 04-18-2005, 03:08 PM

I don\'t actually think there is a way, without serious juggling and possibly hurting the team more.

Our best bet would be Gandy, who is due something like 5 mil this season, and clearly not 5 mil good.

T-buck did screw us. If we\'d kept him, we could have restructured rather than taking an additional 1 mil loss - that might have saved us almost 2-3 mil in cap space (if restructured). Instead we cut him, in what I take to be one of our more bone headed moves of this offseason.

Bouman\'s contract and Thomas\', if memory serves me, are in the 1-1.5 mil range. Restructuring them won\'t help too much if I\'m right about that. Also, I\'m a bit unclear on the rules for restructuring and the initial signing bonuses, so that may shake things up a bit.

Brooks will be in the 5-6 mil range too, again if my memory serves. Getting him to restructure would be a good start, but I don\'t think you\'ll talk him down to 2 mil (the amount we\'d have to get him to to sign our rookies).

At least we thinking about a serious plan now.

Sullivan is acutally shockingly low - he\'s in the 0.5 mil range (though if we cut him, his pro-rated signing bonus would hurt us badly).

I still don\'t think it is possible to swing a deal that will keep Howard here without seriously jeapordizing our current players and who we can retain come next year.

04-17-2005, 03:36 PM	#71
LKelley67 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: baton rouge Posts: 2,540	oakland ups ante for howard see denver trade rumor pak. i think you\'ll like my math there.

04-17-2005, 03:44 PM	#72
ssmitty 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,879	oakland ups ante for howard as i said before, i\'d rather have howard play this yr and get squat for him next yr..........at least i know i have a player...smitty
ssmitty 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,879

04-17-2005, 03:46 PM	#73
LKelley67 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: baton rouge Posts: 2,540	oakland ups ante for howard smitty, so all contract extensions are put off? somebody will HAVE TO BE cut then to clear some money space for the draft picks. We need 3-4 million lopped off for that. If not Howard, who then?

04-17-2005, 04:26 PM	#74
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	oakland ups ante for howard smitty, so all contract extensions are put off? somebody will HAVE TO BE cut then to clear some money space for the draft picks. We need 3-4 million lopped off for that. If not Howard, who then? Exactly. :casstet:

04-17-2005, 06:47 PM	#75
ssmitty 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,879	oakland ups ante for howard look, while in reality howard may be gone, he\'s still here for the time being...........as far as finding money, contracts are reworked all the time..........as long as a player gets what they want and everyone is happy, who cares? is duece unreplaceable? what it gets down to is the same situation as howard, sort of........you do your time, and you want the mucho cash..............bottom line..........guys, girls, i do understand what you\'re saying and while you\'re antsy now, if everything falls apart and howard is here, we will find the money and the way, for this yr. i mean, look at mckenzie, we gave a 2nd for him, did\'nt we? you don\'t think this man will want mucho cash? hell, they all will, those that prove themselves. bottom line again, we have a time frame to build and win (where is new england\'s recipe when you need it) and in that time frame we not only need to lock up the key players, but the key back ups as well for at least a few yrs once everything is in place. are we there? time was i thought we were close, but no, we are not there and as of now, not that close as i thought we were............smitty
ssmitty 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,879

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04-17-2005, 07:40 PM	#76
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	oakland ups ante for howard I don\'t think I understand your point ssmitty. I\'m just being honest here, it isn\'t a criticism. A bunch of us have pointed out a variety of problems with keeping Howard. The simplest problem is that we will have to rework a number of contracts just to sign Howard along with our draft picks. Secondarily, it is highly likely that we\'ll lose him next offseason anyway and we will get nothing. I just don\'t see why that sounds like a \"we\'ll be fine\" kind of situation - that sounds bad to me. I\'m not antsy to move Howard. If Howard were asking for 3 mil a year and some signing bonus, then I\'d certainly be all for keeping him. He isn\'t. He can get us roughly 11 sacks this year or a 2nd round draft pick - which is what he was. So the idea that getting a 2nd rounder is like getting nothing makes no sense to me. Please tell the Titans how contracts can always be reworked to \"make it happen.\" It is simply not the case that there is always something that can be done. I\'m not sure why people don\'t buy that the cap is a serious stumbling block. LK\'s math seems flawless to me. It is not like we have a lot of guys with big contracts who will rework so that we can keep Howard, who will be in a 3 man rotation rather than a true starter. I guess people must think, sheesh, when guys like Gandy, Brooks, and Horn hear that they have to \"rework\" their contracts so we can keep Howard and sign our draft picks, they\'ll be overjoyed. That will certainly improve the reputation of our organization and help us retain and attract quality players. The Titans are the most recent example of what happens when you don\'t play smart with the cap (or you blow your load and don\'t come through).
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

04-18-2005, 06:11 AM	#77
ssmitty 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,879	oakland ups ante for howard jk, i believe only one player needs their contract reworked this yr. if that is the case even a player with 2yrs remaining may not jump to sign an extension offered.......like i said, they all want the big bucks. the titans, we are not.........i never said if we don\'t get a first keep howard. i simply questioned why howard would\'nt be worth at least a first. truth is, besides the rumors, where we ever really offered something concrete? i don\'t recall seeing anything..........and, while we are where we are, i\'d still like to see how smith does this yr. he is very promising but i\'m still not sold..... as a few have pointed out, we always seem to get rid of the right ones and keep the wrong ones...... why do we always seem to get more project players that go backwards instead of forward? and finally on a different subject i still believe to this day that jake shoulda been our qb. the man\'s a player and we let him go. after that, i thought jt would be next in line, but we let him go too. another player gone.......and so here we are with hot and cold brooks.....a defense that still needs a lot of help and many wishes...smitty
ssmitty 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,879

04-18-2005, 08:37 AM	#78
LKelley67 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: baton rouge Posts: 2,540	oakland ups ante for howard --i am not up on the status of every contract but the team has voiced desire to rework deuce, bentley, and mckenzie to longer terms. though being contracted this year, it is prudent for both the team and player to extend. the team identifies the core players needed for a plan of success and then has them tied down for a few years. the terms of an extension usually result in net lower cap impact to the team in the first few years of the contract. (most nfl contracts are fantasy fluff on the backend these days, money that player will never see. ie wr muhammed carolina this winter). the player attains longer security. i think enough case has been made on other threads if not this one about the market value of howard. somewher between randy moss (1st & a player) and gerard warren (4th). seldom do you see the negotiating and the offers made unless it has reached an impasse like arizona n buffalo in the shelton for henry deal. jerry jones said the teams couldn\'t agree on compensation. so, some kinda offer was made. i\'m not trying to be contentious either smitty, but you did say you would rather have howard this season and get squat next year. that could happen but you never offered any suggestions to what other players would be cut to create salary cap room in that case. your preference may be to put off negotiations with deuce, bentley, and mckenzie and let them hit the free market. even if it is though, i think the fo has made it clear they want to make these happen before the coming season begins. that reality must be addressed as well as the draft picks salaries/bonuses somehow. as far as this current administrations abilities i have sang the blues about that too much for some here already. i hope to no end for the team\'s success. i may not have a lot of faith this group can do it but i ain\'t gonna give up now after 38 years.

04-18-2005, 02:59 PM	#79
ssmitty 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,879	oakland ups ante for howard well, we kinda screwed ourselves with tebucky, did\'nt we? what does sullivan count against it? how about bouman? and deals are supposed to be in the works for thomas, boo, and maybe more........and just for arguements sake, what is brooks counting against it? if it\'s more than 100 dollars i say rework it immediately...........i think they will find a way either way, really.........don\'t you? smitty
ssmitty 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,879

04-18-2005, 03:08 PM	#80
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	oakland ups ante for howard I don\'t actually think there is a way, without serious juggling and possibly hurting the team more. Our best bet would be Gandy, who is due something like 5 mil this season, and clearly not 5 mil good. T-buck did screw us. If we\'d kept him, we could have restructured rather than taking an additional 1 mil loss - that might have saved us almost 2-3 mil in cap space (if restructured). Instead we cut him, in what I take to be one of our more bone headed moves of this offseason. Bouman\'s contract and Thomas\', if memory serves me, are in the 1-1.5 mil range. Restructuring them won\'t help too much if I\'m right about that. Also, I\'m a bit unclear on the rules for restructuring and the initial signing bonuses, so that may shake things up a bit. Brooks will be in the 5-6 mil range too, again if my memory serves. Getting him to restructure would be a good start, but I don\'t think you\'ll talk him down to 2 mil (the amount we\'d have to get him to to sign our rookies). At least we thinking about a serious plan now. Sullivan is acutally shockingly low - he\'s in the 0.5 mil range (though if we cut him, his pro-rated signing bonus would hurt us badly). I still don\'t think it is possible to swing a deal that will keep Howard here without seriously jeapordizing our current players and who we can retain come next year.
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks