DJ vs. Finch - a comparison

pakowitz · 04-30-2005, 08:43 PM

i dont believe some of the espn negatives b/c watching film on fincher u can surely see his speed, he has awesome closing speed and he is always around the football, while me might not make every tackle, he is in the area around the ball

saintswhodi · 04-30-2005, 09:28 PM

Is the person Orlando Ruff?

Nope. :P

i dont believe some of the espn negatives b/c watching film on fincher u can surely see his speed, he has awesome closing speed and he is always around the football, while me might not make every tackle, he is in the area around the ball

Well, my take on the pro football weekly bio would be that Derrick Johnson coming from a big school program, and being talked about for the last 4 years, they would have more info on him. Fincher just hit the scene this year and thus would not have the full range of observation. Also, Derrick Johnson is playing against the Adrian Peterson\'s and Quentin Griffin\'s and Chris Brown\'s of college football while Fincher obviously isn\'t. Still, I certainly do hope he is something special for us, but there is a reason few knew his name before we drafted him.

JKool · 04-30-2005, 11:42 PM

Ok, is he bigger than a bread basket?

JKool · 04-30-2005, 11:43 PM

Is it Lawrence Taylor?

Danno · 05-01-2005, 08:11 AM

Tell us what year. Is it this year?

[Edited on 1/5/2005 by Danno]

saintswhodi · 05-01-2005, 08:14 AM

No it\'s not Lawrence Taylor Kool. lol I\'ll narrow down the choices. My point with this guy is his positives are better than Fincher\'s, yet they have yet to translate to the pro game. He didn\'t come from a big time school, although they played some good competition.

And Danno, it\'s not Sed Hodge.

saintswhodi · 05-01-2005, 08:16 AM

Crap, I don\'t remember the year. 2001, 2002 maybe.

GumboBC · 05-01-2005, 11:13 AM

Billy, I was just having some fun with you.

My point was this, though I don\'t see that it has much to do with anything: it is my view that WLB is a playmaking position - that is why many of the greatest LBs of all time have played it. Thus, any suggestion that a player should be moved to or is suited to the WLB, that is NOT a knock against him, but rather it is a compliment.

I seem to have more faith in Watson than you, but I certainly don\'t think he is proven LB yet. I do believe that he is the best LB currently on our roster, though.

I gotcha, JKool.

I\'ve been critical of Watson. Some might be (and probably are) under the impression that I\'m a Watson hater. I\'m not a Watson \"hater\". In any event, I can\'t control what folks think.

My thing with Courtney Watson has always been about his ability to be physical. He just can\'t seem to hold his ground in the middle. He gets pushed around too much. He looks like he\'d rather run around a block than take it on. Sometimes a MLB needs to blow-up the blocking and I don\'t see that physical \"style\" of play out of Watson.

If Watson were on a defense that had defensive tackles who were dominant, I think his style of play would be fine. He\'s a fast guy who can chase plays down, but he just doesn\'t seem to have the type of mentality a MLB needs to have in order to take on the bigger blockers.

You see teams who \"covet\" big defensive tackles who can shield their linebackers - thus allowing their speedy LBs to make plays. But it\'s hard to find those big defensive tackles and when you don\'t have them, you need a MLB who can get physical at the point of attack.

JKool -- In your opinion ...

1. Do we have the defensive tackles who can keep blockers off of our LBs?

2. Is Courtney Watson the \"type\" of LB who can make enough plays behind our DTs?

I really don\'t have to think hard on those questions. I\'ve yet to see Fincher play, but based on his \"style\" of play in college, and on his \"attitude\", I think he is better suited for MLB in our defense.

JKool · 05-01-2005, 11:42 AM

Billy,

(1) I\'ve never taken you to be a Watson hater; we\'ve had this discussion too many times.

(2) My earlier point was Watson sounded just as good or better than Fincher in his scouting report. Now, you can say that what you saw was not what was in the scouting reports, that is why you think Watson is the kind of guy who gets pushed around, but then I suggest that there isn\'t too much reason to be excited that Fincher will be any different.

(3) Still, don\'t get me wrong, I hope that Fincher is the stone-headed, beast we need in the middle. Scouting reports are nice, but as we\'ve shown in this thread, they aren\'t all they\'re cracked up to be.

(4) Notice one of the knocks on Watson is that he needs to \"use his natural leverage\" more to take on blockers. That is a learned behavior, so Watson can still learn it. I also pointed to inconsistency along our DL that could have lead to problems for Watson (just as Urlacher had when Washington left). Further, there is a learning curve at MLB, and second year LBs often bloom into super stars after their first year. Thus, I suggest, that there is as much reason to salivate over Watson at MLB as Fincher - and Watson is faster.

(5) I\'m all about putting Watson at WLB. I think he has all the tools to be great there. I just thought you were the one who thought a MLB had to be better than a WLB - I am not of that view at all - and so I was confused when you wanted to put a less athletic guy at MLB.

(6) Yes, our DTs are the kind of guys who can keep OLinemen off our LBs, but that would require a change of scheme. I think if we stick with our current DT game plans, then no they are not capable of keeping guys off our LBs.

(7) You keep wanting to say that Watson is one type of LB and, I suppose, Fincher is another. I don\'t buy that. Sure, Watson wasn\'t as physical as you\'d have liked last year, but it was his rookie season - the type of LB he was was \"rookie\". We\'ll see after a year of NFL conditioning, two training camps, and some growing up, what \"type\" of LB he is - I\'m not going to pidgeon hole him after one rookie campaign.

Whodi,

(1) This guy\'s positives do seem better, but his negatives seem worse. One thing I like about Fincher is this: while no one seems particularly excited about his \"potential\", people seem excited about what he can already do.

(2) Is it Mike Croel\'s little brother? How about Torrance Marshall?

GumboBC · 05-01-2005, 11:53 AM

(5) I\'m all about putting Watson at WLB. I think he has all the tools to be great there. I just thought you were the one who thought a MLB had to be better than a WLB - I am not of that view at all - and so I was confused when you wanted to put a less athletic guy at MLB.

I do think MLB is HARDER to play than WLB. Look in all of those \"scouting\" reports on linebackers.

If you notice, you see all kind of remarks on MLB who could shift over and play WLB. You EVER see a comment on a WLB who would be better suited to play MLB? NOPE!!

You never see some scout suggest that a WLB would be better suited to play MLB. Why? Because they don\'t possess the tools that a proto-typical MLB needs.

Note: I\'m sure you can find some player who played WLB in college whom scouts thought would be a better MLB. But, my point still stands ... It\'s usually the other way around.

PS -- I\'m not saying Watson can\'t improve at MLB. But I am suggesting, for his \"style\" of play, that he has much more \"upside\" as a WLB.

And I\'m also suggesting that Fincher has much more \"upside\" at MLB than Courtney Watson.

[Edited on 1/5/2005 by GumboBC]

04-30-2005, 08:43 PM	#21
pakowitz The Dark Overlord Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,450	DJ vs. Finch - a comparison i dont believe some of the espn negatives b/c watching film on fincher u can surely see his speed, he has awesome closing speed and he is always around the football, while me might not make every tackle, he is in the area around the ball

04-30-2005, 09:28 PM	#22
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	DJ vs. Finch - a comparison Is the person Orlando Ruff? Nope. :P i dont believe some of the espn negatives b/c watching film on fincher u can surely see his speed, he has awesome closing speed and he is always around the football, while me might not make every tackle, he is in the area around the ball Well, my take on the pro football weekly bio would be that Derrick Johnson coming from a big school program, and being talked about for the last 4 years, they would have more info on him. Fincher just hit the scene this year and thus would not have the full range of observation. Also, Derrick Johnson is playing against the Adrian Peterson\'s and Quentin Griffin\'s and Chris Brown\'s of college football while Fincher obviously isn\'t. Still, I certainly do hope he is something special for us, but there is a reason few knew his name before we drafted him.

04-30-2005, 11:42 PM	#23
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	DJ vs. Finch - a comparison Ok, is he bigger than a bread basket?

04-30-2005, 11:43 PM	#24
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	DJ vs. Finch - a comparison Is it Lawrence Taylor?

05-01-2005, 08:11 AM	#25
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,713	DJ vs. Finch - a comparison Tell us what year. Is it this year? [Edited on 1/5/2005 by Danno]

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05-01-2005, 08:14 AM	#26
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	DJ vs. Finch - a comparison No it\'s not Lawrence Taylor Kool. lol I\'ll narrow down the choices. My point with this guy is his positives are better than Fincher\'s, yet they have yet to translate to the pro game. He didn\'t come from a big time school, although they played some good competition. And Danno, it\'s not Sed Hodge.

05-01-2005, 08:16 AM	#27
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	DJ vs. Finch - a comparison Crap, I don\'t remember the year. 2001, 2002 maybe.

05-01-2005, 11:13 AM	#28
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	DJ vs. Finch - a comparison Billy, I was just having some fun with you. My point was this, though I don\'t see that it has much to do with anything: it is my view that WLB is a playmaking position - that is why many of the greatest LBs of all time have played it. Thus, any suggestion that a player should be moved to or is suited to the WLB, that is NOT a knock against him, but rather it is a compliment. I seem to have more faith in Watson than you, but I certainly don\'t think he is proven LB yet. I do believe that he is the best LB currently on our roster, though. I gotcha, JKool. I\'ve been critical of Watson. Some might be (and probably are) under the impression that I\'m a Watson hater. I\'m not a Watson \"hater\". In any event, I can\'t control what folks think. My thing with Courtney Watson has always been about his ability to be physical. He just can\'t seem to hold his ground in the middle. He gets pushed around too much. He looks like he\'d rather run around a block than take it on. Sometimes a MLB needs to blow-up the blocking and I don\'t see that physical \"style\" of play out of Watson. If Watson were on a defense that had defensive tackles who were dominant, I think his style of play would be fine. He\'s a fast guy who can chase plays down, but he just doesn\'t seem to have the type of mentality a MLB needs to have in order to take on the bigger blockers. You see teams who \"covet\" big defensive tackles who can shield their linebackers - thus allowing their speedy LBs to make plays. But it\'s hard to find those big defensive tackles and when you don\'t have them, you need a MLB who can get physical at the point of attack. JKool -- In your opinion ... 1. Do we have the defensive tackles who can keep blockers off of our LBs? 2. Is Courtney Watson the \"type\" of LB who can make enough plays behind our DTs? I really don\'t have to think hard on those questions. I\'ve yet to see Fincher play, but based on his \"style\" of play in college, and on his \"attitude\", I think he is better suited for MLB in our defense.
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

05-01-2005, 11:42 AM	#29
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	DJ vs. Finch - a comparison Billy, (1) I\'ve never taken you to be a Watson hater; we\'ve had this discussion too many times. (2) My earlier point was Watson sounded just as good or better than Fincher in his scouting report. Now, you can say that what you saw was not what was in the scouting reports, that is why you think Watson is the kind of guy who gets pushed around, but then I suggest that there isn\'t too much reason to be excited that Fincher will be any different. (3) Still, don\'t get me wrong, I hope that Fincher is the stone-headed, beast we need in the middle. Scouting reports are nice, but as we\'ve shown in this thread, they aren\'t all they\'re cracked up to be. (4) Notice one of the knocks on Watson is that he needs to \"use his natural leverage\" more to take on blockers. That is a learned behavior, so Watson can still learn it. I also pointed to inconsistency along our DL that could have lead to problems for Watson (just as Urlacher had when Washington left). Further, there is a learning curve at MLB, and second year LBs often bloom into super stars after their first year. Thus, I suggest, that there is as much reason to salivate over Watson at MLB as Fincher - and Watson is faster. (5) I\'m all about putting Watson at WLB. I think he has all the tools to be great there. I just thought you were the one who thought a MLB had to be better than a WLB - I am not of that view at all - and so I was confused when you wanted to put a less athletic guy at MLB. (6) Yes, our DTs are the kind of guys who can keep OLinemen off our LBs, but that would require a change of scheme. I think if we stick with our current DT game plans, then no they are not capable of keeping guys off our LBs. (7) You keep wanting to say that Watson is one type of LB and, I suppose, Fincher is another. I don\'t buy that. Sure, Watson wasn\'t as physical as you\'d have liked last year, but it was his rookie season - the type of LB he was was \"rookie\". We\'ll see after a year of NFL conditioning, two training camps, and some growing up, what \"type\" of LB he is - I\'m not going to pidgeon hole him after one rookie campaign. Whodi, (1) This guy\'s positives do seem better, but his negatives seem worse. One thing I like about Fincher is this: while no one seems particularly excited about his \"potential\", people seem excited about what he can already do. (2) Is it Mike Croel\'s little brother? How about Torrance Marshall?
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

05-01-2005, 11:53 AM	#30
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	DJ vs. Finch - a comparison (5) I\'m all about putting Watson at WLB. I think he has all the tools to be great there. I just thought you were the one who thought a MLB had to be better than a WLB - I am not of that view at all - and so I was confused when you wanted to put a less athletic guy at MLB. I do think MLB is HARDER to play than WLB. Look in all of those \"scouting\" reports on linebackers. If you notice, you see all kind of remarks on MLB who could shift over and play WLB. You EVER see a comment on a WLB who would be better suited to play MLB? NOPE!! You never see some scout suggest that a WLB would be better suited to play MLB. Why? Because they don\'t possess the tools that a proto-typical MLB needs. Note: I\'m sure you can find some player who played WLB in college whom scouts thought would be a better MLB. But, my point still stands ... It\'s usually the other way around. PS -- I\'m not saying Watson can\'t improve at MLB. But I am suggesting, for his \"style\" of play, that he has much more \"upside\" as a WLB. And I\'m also suggesting that Fincher has much more \"upside\" at MLB than Courtney Watson. [Edited on 1/5/2005 by GumboBC]
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616