Unpopular Opinions: Drew Brees is most underrated player ever

The Dude · 10-07-2018, 07:37 PM

He’s alright. No Aaron Brooks but who is?

jeanpierre · 10-07-2018, 11:03 PM

Originally Posted by The Dude

I googled “top ten QBs of all time” and this was the very first thing that popped up.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndica...-time.amp.html

Well, let's see, Google political algorithms/female sports journalist, hyper-active Twitter user, from New Hampshire (New England) - seems legit...

jeanpierre · 10-07-2018, 11:20 PM

Originally Posted by Utah_Saint

I don't know if I would say mediocre.

Payton has the 5th highest winning percentage of active coaches in the league @ .600.

That's good for 35th in the 98 year history of the NFL. And 7 of the coaches ahead of him only coached for 5 years or less.

Of the 4 active coaches with better overall records, only Belichick has a higher playoff winning percentage.

*Min 50 games coached

See this is non-sequitur because you have many unique factors to consider here...

First, the Saints franchise history only had a five year run of league respect during the Dome Patrol years and even then that team hadn't won a playoff game...

Second, Tom Benson's age made the old man less volatile than previously and he had his ring unlike other comparable owners (i.e. Bud Adams, Bill Bidwill)...

Third, the Payton-era team, despite only six winning seasons in eleven years, has an electric offense and subsequent television and stadium draw...

But what ensured Payton's tenure here was when the league tried to tell Benson how to run his franchise (i.e. fire Payton) - that ensured Payton's tenure...

That is why the only comparison I can see that you could find in NFL history was Don Shula, his '72 Dolphins, and riding out another twenty years with mediocre football...

...and that included an unlikely one year tease appearance in the Superbowl with Marino vs a dominant 49ers team and consuming Marino's career with mediocre team effort...

jeanpierre · 10-08-2018, 12:27 AM

If I'm doing a Top Ten List of GOAT Quarterbacks, these are some of the things that I give weight to in my mind when you factor where Brees places on such a list...

First, Brees had an advantage of the Irsay/Colts post-AFC loss meltdown in 2004/2005 of pass defense rules tweaks; while Brees' numbers jumped here, they went stratospheric post-rules changes...

By comparison, somebody like Marino had passing numbers that no one came closed to until the changes in pass defense brought on by the malcontent Irsay...

Second, you gotta consider game winning drives to really be one of the more defining statistics as no other stat shows a better impact by a player; these are both 4Q Comebacks and Kill-shot drives...

Now here you will find that Brees is tied with Favre for third on the list at 43, behind only Peyton Manning (54) and Dan Marino (47)...

Source: Pro Football Reference - Game Winning Drives

Third, one sabremetric I really like that Baseball has and Football needs it WAR(P) Wins Above Replacement (Player)...

Brees has been notably durable in his career, including early years of less QB protective rules, his teams have never had to go more than a game without him...

Whereas, Brady's 2008 Patriots still went 11-5 when he missed 15 games that season; but when Manning missed the 2011 season, the Colts collapsed...

So while, hopefully, we won't get to look at this value till Brees retires, when you look at other franchises without their GOAT candidates, many still did well...

Montana, as awesome as he was, was easily replaced by Young who also won a Superbowl with the Bill Walsh juggernaut 49ers...

A 38yo Marino in '99 was 5-6, the team finished 9-7; the Dolphins however went 11-5 in the following two years...

While many lauded John Elway, the comeback kid, Mr. Clutch his Superbowl collapses were as epic and didn't win a Superbowl until a run-heavy (Terrell Davis) offense...

Then there are the passing numbers, actual documented production, and this is where Brees stands out...

Career Passing Yards - Manning (71,940), Favre (71,838), Brees (71,740), Brady (67,418), Marino (61,361), the next is Eli Manning (52,737)...

Career Passes Completed - Brees (6,344), Favre (6,300), Manning (6,125), Brady (5,750), Marino (4,967), the next is Eli Manning (4,536)...

Career Passing Touchdowns - Manning (539), Favre (508), Brady (500), Brees (496), Marino (420), the next is Rivers (353)...

Career Passing Interceptions - Brady (48th -166), Brees (16th - 228), Manning (9th, 251), Marino (8th, 252), Favre (1st, 336)...

Career Sacked - Favre (1st -525), Elway (2nd - 516), Roethlisberger (4th - 484), Brady (8th -458), Brees (16th - 384), Manning (47th, 303), Marino (58th, 270)...

So, as you can start to see, before you bring on the Superbowl Rings argument, Brees stacks up favorably statistically in career numbers...

jeanpierre · 10-08-2018, 01:51 AM

I've watched football intensely, following statistics, collecting cards, since I was a very young boy, this would be my Top 10 list based on what I've seen and what I know...

JP's Top 10 All-Time NFL Passers, Quarterbacks

1 - Dan Marino

He put up the the obscene numbers in a not-so-friendly era of passing; passing records are falling ever couple of years the past decade, no one touched Marino's records for over twenty years! Marino's release from snap-to-pass was the quickest ever in the NFL; a read/pass QB competition was even created at the ProBowl to better show how much better he was than his peers; with better talent, he'd easily won five Superbowls; and the only quarteback to shred, shred the '85 Bears defense, most dominant defense ever - and the first bet I ever lost...

2 - Peyton Manning

In the modern era of play-calling coordinators, this throw-back was still calling plays at the line and his defensive reads rarely failed him with the exception of Bill Belichick defenses and a bad read vs Tracy Porter; the Colts don't even have winning records without him; only one on this list to win Superbowls with two different teams; had four (4) of the top 10 QBR seasons era, only one of two QBs with multiple best QBR seasons...

3 - Drew Brees

The most prolific passer on this list, he'd be ranked higher if he'd thown more total career PaTD (even though he also owns record for most-consecutive-games-with-PaTD) and less interceptions; two more Superbowls wouldn't have hurt his cause; and, other than Manning, he's the only other QB on this list with Best QBR Top 10 seasons ever with two (2); will own Career Passing Yards, Career Passing Completions by mid-2018 season; despite five (5) 5000 PaYd seasons, no one else on list close, he's never been a League MVP...

4 - Brett Favre

Favre was the ultimate riverboat gambler who's decision-making was less than impressive; but no one played with more heart (except maybe Brees), grit, toughness, and games started/played than Favre. Knew him as a young teenager on the MS Gulf Coast where I spent my summers. My first draft man crush, friends laughed at me when I wanted the Saints to draft him in 1990; I cited things like only QB to be Auburn and Alabama in the same year and did it six weeks after having 30inches of small intestine removed post-MVA; tough, tough, tough...

5 - Tom Brady

Game Manager often gets a negative connotation as a don't-lose-the-game attachment, but it's hard to ignore Brady's success as a passer when you look at Career PaTD:Int ratio; and then there's the 5-3 SuperBowl Record - that's eight (8) Superbowl appearances; but again, he's been the beneficiary of having Bill Belichick as HC and having 13 Top 10 scoring defenses in 17 of his seasons; and while that comeback vs the Falcons was amazing, it was the Falcons...

6 - Joe Montana

The only pairing of Head Coach:Quarterback better than Payton:Brees was Walsh:Montana. The 80's 49ers were in every single game. You never counted them out (80's/90's Saints fans can attest); and no one was cooler on the big stage than Montana; and Montana was the proto-type of Bill Walsh's innovative West Coast Offense corrected the flaw of the Air Coryell offense (mentioned later) and tamed those innovatiosn back to control the time of possessions, resting the 49ers defense, winning Championships...

7 - John Elway

Used to have a lot of bias against Elway because of the way he, his Father, and agent refused the Colts and insisted playing out west in Denver. As I've gotten older, and as a Father, I can say that bias is no longer there. Elway really altered NFL history changing the careers, fortunes of many good teams, players, coaches - especially the Browns. But the Broncos rarely had divisional challengers and was exposed against better teams in the playoffs, Superbowls; finally had Superbowl success with a dominant running game to support him...

8 - Steve Young

NFL - Not For Long - is usually what happens with these dual-threat, athlete quarterbacks, but no quarterback with the dual-threat package to pass and run was more impressive than Young; would like to have seen what he could've done with Walsh his entire career; he was also pretty awesome in the USFL...

9 - Warren Moon

Even in a world flawed with bias, Warren Moon still had few that could pass his teams to victory as he had. Though he had few years in the Run and Shoot offense where his numbers soared and the team lost a lot games from wore-out defenses, even in the conventional offensive years, Moon was an exceptional passer who played on poor teams; and to the public, he was humble quarterback...

10 - Dan Fouts

As Marino was the predecessor to the Manning-Brees-Brady era, so was Fouts to the Marino-Montana-Moon era; Dan Fouts was the ultimate test pilot of the Air-Coryell offense which is where much of the modern-era forward passing game really took off. Fouts led teams ran up and down the field so much that both his teammates, as well as opposing defense, had to use IVs to keep players not only on the field, but to prevent serious dehydration. Again, a great passer who had no complementary defense...

I'd also mention that Brees and Brady are not done yet, and they'd only climb on my list; if Brees and the Saints win it all, I'd move him ahead of Manning; Brady's ranking is admittedly a tough-sell to biased folks, but he's only had rare instances in the past three years, of taking the team on his shoulders the way many on this list have...

Utah_Saint · 10-08-2018, 03:36 AM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

See this is non-sequitur because you have many unique factors to consider here...

First, the Saints franchise history only had a five year run of league respect during the Dome Patrol years and even then that team hadn't won a playoff game...

Second, Tom Benson's age made the old man less volatile than previously and he had his ring unlike other comparable owners (i.e. Bud Adams, Bill Bidwill)...

Third, the Payton-era team, despite only six winning seasons in eleven years, has an electric offense and subsequent television and stadium draw...

But what ensured Payton's tenure here was when the league tried to tell Benson how to run his franchise (i.e. fire Payton) - that ensured Payton's tenure...

That is why the only comparison I can see that you could find in NFL history was Don Shula, his '72 Dolphins, and riding out another twenty years with mediocre football...

...and that included an unlikely one year tease appearance in the Superbowl with Marino vs a dominant 49ers team and consuming Marino's career with mediocre team effort...

I included the 5 year statement because a coach with 5 years or less would be more likely have the same roster, or at least the same core group of players, for his entire tenure and less likely to go through a "rebuilding" process. For example Red Miller and Barry Switzer have a better winning percentages than Payton but they inherited playoff caliber teams yet the teams got progressively worse each of the four years they were coaching.

But even if you exclude overall historical ranking wouldn't you still consider the 5th best winning percentage of active coaches conclusive evidence of being better than mediocre?

Only 6 winning seasons out of 11, is also only 4 losing seasons out of 11. And of those 4 losing seasons, the Saints have not finished worse than one game below .500.

And if you're saying Payton is riding out years with mediocre football then I have to completely disagree. Payton's record since winning the Superbowl is .603, which again, is still the 5th best winning percentage among active coaches. And in the top 20 in the entire Super Bowl era.

(And not to pick nits, but after winning the Super Bowl in 72, the Dolphins repeated in 73 and went back to the Super Bowl in 82 and 84. And in his 26 years as head coach of the Dolphins, they only had 2 losing seasons, in 76 and 88. Only Bill Belichick has a higher winning percentage in the Super Bowl era, ((again 5 season or more))

SaintGup · 10-08-2018, 06:17 AM

Originally Posted by SaintSproles

I dare someone to find a listing that has Brees in the top 10 best qbs of all time. It doesn't exist.

Is Brees better than Favre? Of course, Brees has a 2.4% interception rate, Favre a gaudy 3.3%. End of discussion.

Is Brees better than Elway? Of course he is. While Elway was a clutch performer late in games, statistically he was not elite even in his generation of Young, Montana and Marino. Not even close in fact.

Is Brees better than Marino? That one is actually a closer call, but the edge still clearly goes to Brees.

There are only 2 qbs clearly ahead of Brees, Brady and Montana and it all has to do with rings.

What Brees will need to do is play another 4 seasons and get to 90,000 yards and 600 TDs and leave no doubt that he belongs in that 3rd spot.

Win another Super Bowl and he immediately moves into the top 5.

Brees has suffered from a lack of support from his teammates, and that sub 60% win rate is weighing him down. Half the seasons not making the playoffs, heavily weighing on his legacy as well. No fault of his own, but it counts against him in the pundits eyes.

It's sad, but it's the way it is.

I personally have him 3rd already.

Destroy all the records and win a second SB and I'd personally have him #1.

I tend not to go by rings as that would mean Eli Manning is better and Trent Dilfer on a par. Look at pure Quarterback stats, forget what the team has achieved, and you will find that Brees outstrips them all.

jeanpierre · 10-08-2018, 10:24 AM

Not counting Payton's suspended season (which was still his staff, his players), he was still 4 winning seasons: 3 losing seasons, since...

And my point was to emphasize what Payton, not only the HC, but de facto general manager hadn't done since winning the Superbowl...

The other point of emphasis was that unlike other coaches, markets, Payton has been able to enjoy an unusually long tenure because of the Saints prior historical futility...

Even Tom Coughlin, winning Two (2) Superbowls still found being called for dismissal by NYG media, fans and even players alike...

Whereas, Payton was going no where because of the Superbowl success AND because the league tried to tell Benson how to run his team by firing Payton...

jeanpierre · 10-09-2018, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by SaintGup

I tend not to go by rings as that would mean Eli Manning is better and Trent Dilfer on a par. Look at pure Quarterback stats, forget what the team has achieved, and you will find that Brees outstrips them all.

I'd say Eli is better than many, especially G'nats fans and media, judge him to be but certainly not better than Drew nor Peyton...

SaintSproles · 10-09-2018, 09:38 PM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

I'd say Eli is better than many, especially G'nats fans and media, judge him to be but certainly not better than Drew nor Peyton...

Eli Manning is totally cow dung.

Do you know that his career QB rating is worse than the NFL average during that time span?

You know what that makes him? Slightly less than mediocre.

The stats say he's mediocre, the eye test certainly says he's at best mediocre.

He should not sniff the HOF. I will be totally disgusted if he makes it.

10-07-2018, 07:37 PM	#21
The Dude 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 9,006	Re: Unpopular Opinions: Drew Brees is most underrated player ever He’s alright. No Aaron Brooks but who is?
The Dude 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 9,006

10-07-2018, 11:03 PM	#22
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: Unpopular Opinions: Drew Brees is most underrated player ever Originally Posted by The Dude I googled “top ten QBs of all time” and this was the very first thing that popped up. https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndica...-time.amp.html Well, let's see, Google political algorithms/female sports journalist, hyper-active Twitter user, from New Hampshire (New England) - seems legit... foreverfan likes this.

10-07-2018, 11:20 PM	#23
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: Unpopular Opinions: Drew Brees is most underrated player ever Originally Posted by Utah_Saint I don't know if I would say mediocre. Payton has the 5th highest winning percentage of active coaches in the league @ .600. That's good for 35th in the 98 year history of the NFL. And 7 of the coaches ahead of him only coached for 5 years or less. Of the 4 active coaches with better overall records, only Belichick has a higher playoff winning percentage. *Min 50 games coached See this is non-sequitur because you have many unique factors to consider here... First, the Saints franchise history only had a five year run of league respect during the Dome Patrol years and even then that team hadn't won a playoff game... Second, Tom Benson's age made the old man less volatile than previously and he had his ring unlike other comparable owners (i.e. Bud Adams, Bill Bidwill)... Third, the Payton-era team, despite only six winning seasons in eleven years, has an electric offense and subsequent television and stadium draw... But what ensured Payton's tenure here was when the league tried to tell Benson how to run his franchise (i.e. fire Payton) - that ensured Payton's tenure... That is why the only comparison I can see that you could find in NFL history was Don Shula, his '72 Dolphins, and riding out another twenty years with mediocre football... ...and that included an unlikely one year tease appearance in the Superbowl with Marino vs a dominant 49ers team and consuming Marino's career with mediocre team effort...
	It's not that my way is the right way, I just make the right way my way...

10-08-2018, 12:27 AM	#24
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: Unpopular Opinions: Drew Brees is most underrated player ever If I'm doing a Top Ten List of GOAT Quarterbacks, these are some of the things that I give weight to in my mind when you factor where Brees places on such a list... First, Brees had an advantage of the Irsay/Colts post-AFC loss meltdown in 2004/2005 of pass defense rules tweaks; while Brees' numbers jumped here, they went stratospheric post-rules changes... By comparison, somebody like Marino had passing numbers that no one came closed to until the changes in pass defense brought on by the malcontent Irsay... Second, you gotta consider game winning drives to really be one of the more defining statistics as no other stat shows a better impact by a player; these are both 4Q Comebacks and Kill-shot drives... Now here you will find that Brees is tied with Favre for third on the list at 43, behind only Peyton Manning (54) and Dan Marino (47)... Source: Pro Football Reference - Game Winning Drives Third, one sabremetric I really like that Baseball has and Football needs it WAR(P) Wins Above Replacement (Player)... Brees has been notably durable in his career, including early years of less QB protective rules, his teams have never had to go more than a game without him... Whereas, Brady's 2008 Patriots still went 11-5 when he missed 15 games that season; but when Manning missed the 2011 season, the Colts collapsed... So while, hopefully, we won't get to look at this value till Brees retires, when you look at other franchises without their GOAT candidates, many still did well... Montana, as awesome as he was, was easily replaced by Young who also won a Superbowl with the Bill Walsh juggernaut 49ers... A 38yo Marino in '99 was 5-6, the team finished 9-7; the Dolphins however went 11-5 in the following two years... While many lauded John Elway, the comeback kid, Mr. Clutch his Superbowl collapses were as epic and didn't win a Superbowl until a run-heavy (Terrell Davis) offense... Then there are the passing numbers, actual documented production, and this is where Brees stands out... Career Passing Yards - Manning (71,940), Favre (71,838), Brees (71,740), Brady (67,418), Marino (61,361), the next is Eli Manning (52,737)... Career Passes Completed - Brees (6,344), Favre (6,300), Manning (6,125), Brady (5,750), Marino (4,967), the next is Eli Manning (4,536)... Career Passing Touchdowns - Manning (539), Favre (508), Brady (500), Brees (496), Marino (420), the next is Rivers (353)... Career Passing Interceptions - Brady (48th -166), Brees (16th - 228), Manning (9th, 251), Marino (8th, 252), Favre (1st, 336)... Career Sacked - Favre (1st -525), Elway (2nd - 516), Roethlisberger (4th - 484), Brady (8th -458), Brees (16th - 384), Manning (47th, 303), Marino (58th, 270)... So, as you can start to see, before you bring on the Superbowl Rings argument, Brees stacks up favorably statistically in career numbers...
	It's not that my way is the right way, I just make the right way my way... Last edited by jeanpierre; 10-08-2018 at 02:56 AM..

10-08-2018, 01:51 AM	#25
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: Unpopular Opinions: Drew Brees is most underrated player ever I've watched football intensely, following statistics, collecting cards, since I was a very young boy, this would be my Top 10 list based on what I've seen and what I know... JP's Top 10 All-Time NFL Passers, Quarterbacks 1 - Dan Marino He put up the the obscene numbers in a not-so-friendly era of passing; passing records are falling ever couple of years the past decade, no one touched Marino's records for over twenty years! Marino's release from snap-to-pass was the quickest ever in the NFL; a read/pass QB competition was even created at the ProBowl to better show how much better he was than his peers; with better talent, he'd easily won five Superbowls; and the only quarteback to shred, shred the '85 Bears defense, most dominant defense ever - and the first bet I ever lost... 2 - Peyton Manning In the modern era of play-calling coordinators, this throw-back was still calling plays at the line and his defensive reads rarely failed him with the exception of Bill Belichick defenses and a bad read vs Tracy Porter; the Colts don't even have winning records without him; only one on this list to win Superbowls with two different teams; had four (4) of the top 10 QBR seasons era, only one of two QBs with multiple best QBR seasons... 3 - Drew Brees The most prolific passer on this list, he'd be ranked higher if he'd thown more total career PaTD (even though he also owns record for most-consecutive-games-with-PaTD) and less interceptions; two more Superbowls wouldn't have hurt his cause; and, other than Manning, he's the only other QB on this list with Best QBR Top 10 seasons ever with two (2); will own Career Passing Yards, Career Passing Completions by mid-2018 season; despite five (5) 5000 PaYd seasons, no one else on list close, he's never been a League MVP... 4 - Brett Favre Favre was the ultimate riverboat gambler who's decision-making was less than impressive; but no one played with more heart (except maybe Brees), grit, toughness, and games started/played than Favre. Knew him as a young teenager on the MS Gulf Coast where I spent my summers. My first draft man crush, friends laughed at me when I wanted the Saints to draft him in 1990; I cited things like only QB to be Auburn and Alabama in the same year and did it six weeks after having 30inches of small intestine removed post-MVA; tough, tough, tough... 5 - Tom Brady Game Manager often gets a negative connotation as a don't-lose-the-game attachment, but it's hard to ignore Brady's success as a passer when you look at Career PaTD:Int ratio; and then there's the 5-3 SuperBowl Record - that's eight (8) Superbowl appearances; but again, he's been the beneficiary of having Bill Belichick as HC and having 13 Top 10 scoring defenses in 17 of his seasons; and while that comeback vs the Falcons was amazing, it was the Falcons... 6 - Joe Montana The only pairing of Head Coach:Quarterback better than Payton:Brees was Walsh:Montana. The 80's 49ers were in every single game. You never counted them out (80's/90's Saints fans can attest); and no one was cooler on the big stage than Montana; and Montana was the proto-type of Bill Walsh's innovative West Coast Offense corrected the flaw of the Air Coryell offense (mentioned later) and tamed those innovatiosn back to control the time of possessions, resting the 49ers defense, winning Championships... 7 - John Elway Used to have a lot of bias against Elway because of the way he, his Father, and agent refused the Colts and insisted playing out west in Denver. As I've gotten older, and as a Father, I can say that bias is no longer there. Elway really altered NFL history changing the careers, fortunes of many good teams, players, coaches - especially the Browns. But the Broncos rarely had divisional challengers and was exposed against better teams in the playoffs, Superbowls; finally had Superbowl success with a dominant running game to support him... 8 - Steve Young NFL - Not For Long - is usually what happens with these dual-threat, athlete quarterbacks, but no quarterback with the dual-threat package to pass and run was more impressive than Young; would like to have seen what he could've done with Walsh his entire career; he was also pretty awesome in the USFL... 9 - Warren Moon Even in a world flawed with bias, Warren Moon still had few that could pass his teams to victory as he had. Though he had few years in the Run and Shoot offense where his numbers soared and the team lost a lot games from wore-out defenses, even in the conventional offensive years, Moon was an exceptional passer who played on poor teams; and to the public, he was humble quarterback... 10 - Dan Fouts As Marino was the predecessor to the Manning-Brees-Brady era, so was Fouts to the Marino-Montana-Moon era; Dan Fouts was the ultimate test pilot of the Air-Coryell offense which is where much of the modern-era forward passing game really took off. Fouts led teams ran up and down the field so much that both his teammates, as well as opposing defense, had to use IVs to keep players not only on the field, but to prevent serious dehydration. Again, a great passer who had no complementary defense... I'd also mention that Brees and Brady are not done yet, and they'd only climb on my list; if Brees and the Saints win it all, I'd move him ahead of Manning; Brady's ranking is admittedly a tough-sell to biased folks, but he's only had rare instances in the past three years, of taking the team on his shoulders the way many on this list have... foreverfan and K Major like this.
	It's not that my way is the right way, I just make the right way my way... Last edited by jeanpierre; 10-08-2018 at 05:52 PM..

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10-08-2018, 03:36 AM	#26
Utah_Saint Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah Posts: 3,521	Re: Unpopular Opinions: Drew Brees is most underrated player ever Originally Posted by jeanpierre See this is non-sequitur because you have many unique factors to consider here... First, the Saints franchise history only had a five year run of league respect during the Dome Patrol years and even then that team hadn't won a playoff game... Second, Tom Benson's age made the old man less volatile than previously and he had his ring unlike other comparable owners (i.e. Bud Adams, Bill Bidwill)... Third, the Payton-era team, despite only six winning seasons in eleven years, has an electric offense and subsequent television and stadium draw... But what ensured Payton's tenure here was when the league tried to tell Benson how to run his franchise (i.e. fire Payton) - that ensured Payton's tenure... That is why the only comparison I can see that you could find in NFL history was Don Shula, his '72 Dolphins, and riding out another twenty years with mediocre football... ...and that included an unlikely one year tease appearance in the Superbowl with Marino vs a dominant 49ers team and consuming Marino's career with mediocre team effort... I included the 5 year statement because a coach with 5 years or less would be more likely have the same roster, or at least the same core group of players, for his entire tenure and less likely to go through a "rebuilding" process. For example Red Miller and Barry Switzer have a better winning percentages than Payton but they inherited playoff caliber teams yet the teams got progressively worse each of the four years they were coaching. But even if you exclude overall historical ranking wouldn't you still consider the 5th best winning percentage of active coaches conclusive evidence of being better than mediocre? Only 6 winning seasons out of 11, is also only 4 losing seasons out of 11. And of those 4 losing seasons, the Saints have not finished worse than one game below .500. And if you're saying Payton is riding out years with mediocre football then I have to completely disagree. Payton's record since winning the Superbowl is .603, which again, is still the 5th best winning percentage among active coaches. And in the top 20 in the entire Super Bowl era. (And not to pick nits, but after winning the Super Bowl in 72, the Dolphins repeated in 73 and went back to the Super Bowl in 82 and 84. And in his 26 years as head coach of the Dolphins, they only had 2 losing seasons, in 76 and 88. Only Bill Belichick has a higher winning percentage in the Super Bowl era, ((again 5 season or more))

10-08-2018, 06:17 AM	#27
SaintGup 500th Post Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: London, England Posts: 580	Re: Unpopular Opinions: Drew Brees is most underrated player ever Originally Posted by SaintSproles I dare someone to find a listing that has Brees in the top 10 best qbs of all time. It doesn't exist. Is Brees better than Favre? Of course, Brees has a 2.4% interception rate, Favre a gaudy 3.3%. End of discussion. Is Brees better than Elway? Of course he is. While Elway was a clutch performer late in games, statistically he was not elite even in his generation of Young, Montana and Marino. Not even close in fact. Is Brees better than Marino? That one is actually a closer call, but the edge still clearly goes to Brees. There are only 2 qbs clearly ahead of Brees, Brady and Montana and it all has to do with rings. What Brees will need to do is play another 4 seasons and get to 90,000 yards and 600 TDs and leave no doubt that he belongs in that 3rd spot. Win another Super Bowl and he immediately moves into the top 5. Brees has suffered from a lack of support from his teammates, and that sub 60% win rate is weighing him down. Half the seasons not making the playoffs, heavily weighing on his legacy as well. No fault of his own, but it counts against him in the pundits eyes. It's sad, but it's the way it is. I personally have him 3rd already. Destroy all the records and win a second SB and I'd personally have him #1. I tend not to go by rings as that would mean Eli Manning is better and Trent Dilfer on a par. Look at pure Quarterback stats, forget what the team has achieved, and you will find that Brees outstrips them all.

10-08-2018, 10:24 AM	#28
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: Unpopular Opinions: Drew Brees is most underrated player ever Not counting Payton's suspended season (which was still his staff, his players), he was still 4 winning seasons: 3 losing seasons, since... And my point was to emphasize what Payton, not only the HC, but de facto general manager hadn't done since winning the Superbowl... The other point of emphasis was that unlike other coaches, markets, Payton has been able to enjoy an unusually long tenure because of the Saints prior historical futility... Even Tom Coughlin, winning Two (2) Superbowls still found being called for dismissal by NYG media, fans and even players alike... Whereas, Payton was going no where because of the Superbowl success AND because the league tried to tell Benson how to run his team by firing Payton...
	It's not that my way is the right way, I just make the right way my way...

10-09-2018, 06:46 PM	#29
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: Unpopular Opinions: Drew Brees is most underrated player ever Originally Posted by SaintGup I tend not to go by rings as that would mean Eli Manning is better and Trent Dilfer on a par. Look at pure Quarterback stats, forget what the team has achieved, and you will find that Brees outstrips them all. I'd say Eli is better than many, especially G'nats fans and media, judge him to be but certainly not better than Drew nor Peyton...

10-09-2018, 09:38 PM	#30
SaintSproles Site Donor Drew Brees GOAT Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 342 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Unpopular Opinions: Drew Brees is most underrated player ever Originally Posted by jeanpierre I'd say Eli is better than many, especially G'nats fans and media, judge him to be but certainly not better than Drew nor Peyton... Eli Manning is totally cow dung. Do you know that his career QB rating is worse than the NFL average during that time span? You know what that makes him? Slightly less than mediocre. The stats say he's mediocre, the eye test certainly says he's at best mediocre. He should not sniff the HOF. I will be totally disgusted if he makes it. jnormand likes this.

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