Passing Improvements...

saintz08 · 06-22-2005, 11:48 AM

Consider the following WhoDat , " The Catch " 49ers game . Montana threw the ball to a position or a spot ??? " The Spot " being a single fixed location with the ending origin known , would have been called like this :

Yo Joe hit the fat dude 8 rows up and 15 seats over from the center isle , right between the eyes and hope Dwight Clark can catch it or at least the clock will stop .

OR

Joe throw the ball high and outside to Clark in the back of the end zone and if he misses it the clock will stop .

You did not answer the question WhoDat ......

Euphoria · 06-22-2005, 01:05 PM

I thought I was playing to much madden 2005

WhoDat · 06-22-2005, 03:14 PM

I'm confused 08. You're now trying to differentiate between a "spot" versus a "position?" Ultimately, they have essentially the same meaning to me, but I'll humor you because I can't wait to see where this is going...

By your definition, I take a "spot" to be some exactly point or coordinates in space and time. A "position" is a set of coordinates relative to the player - is that correct?

Given those definitions, Montana threw to a "position," which I take to be illustrated in your second example. Now what?

Euphoria · 06-22-2005, 03:17 PM

You say potato... I say tomato

saintz08 · 06-22-2005, 05:40 PM

Great QBs understand the game such that on any given play against any given defense, they know which WR is most likely to be open, and even the point when he is most likely to come open. They often anticipate and "throw to a spot" b/c the WR hasn't broken yet, but they know when he does he will be open. The next issue is more physical than mental - and that's putting the ball in a place where the WR can not only catch it, but do something with it. Warner excelled in St. Louis at putting the ball 6 inches to a foot in front of his WR's leading shoulder - allowing his wideouts to catch balls in-stride and often leading them away from hits than into them.

Rough guess is that in a typical power west coast offense of today , 25 % of the passes are spot passes . The quarterback throws to a spot where the receiver is going to be and the route is timed based upon a clean break .

Thought on the Rams comment from earlier , have you taken into consideration the routes the receivers are running in St. Louis . The Rams offense dictates that receivers are never out of the play , they run longer routes and continue to hold the routes until the whistle .

WhoDat · 06-23-2005, 10:26 AM

Dude, 08, I'm missing your point here. Why not lay it out for me real simple-like?

I said I thought AB lacked ability in two key areas in which great QBs normally excel. The first is mental, and deals with reading a defense, anticipating a break, knowing which route will work best, etc. The second being totally physical and relating to his inability to throw a touch pass or put a ball in a spot where his WRs can do something with it. I've always thought that you agreed with that. So what are you trying to say here?

Euphoria · 06-23-2005, 10:34 AM

I am more anxious to see how Brooks reacts to a new system. I see at sometimes during the past couple of seasons it could have been the system...

FrenzyFan · 06-23-2005, 10:51 AM

When I watch Brooks play, what I see is someone "frantic" and I don't expect that to change.

He never appears comfortable on any play that is not a hand-off to DM. On almost every passing play, he appears pinicked even before the pressure becomes a problem. It appears to me that he fires most passes with much greater force than is necessary to make the play, and usually with almost no effort to "set" before he throws. It almost looks like he doesn't know what to expect from a play, even when he is the one calling it to the others, and has to try and "react" rather than "act". He looks jerky in his execution, which probably accounts for this reported accuracy in camp and his seeming inaccuracy in games.

At the speed of the NFL game, "reacting" almost always carries that 50-50 success/fail rate. I think Brooks' natural athleticism, coupled with the talent of his receiving corps and their foreknowlege of how the play is "supposed" to go - account for Brooks, in my opinion, inflated statistics. There are other factors (such as playing from behind, etc).

Most of the above is the mental part of the game, in my opinion. From what I see, it leads me to these possible conclusions:

1 - Brooks never understood the offense, or the offensive game plan.
2 - Brooks is not a quick thinker, who can predict on-field outcomes - even after all these years as the starter.

Nothing has convinced me our Saints will be any different as long as Brooks is our QB. Our coaching staff can attempt to compensate for this by simplifying the playbook and adopting a more power running game, but I don't think we will ever transition to a championship team with Brooks at the helm.

This is, of course, just my opinion based on what I see when I watch Brooks practice and play.

06-22-2005, 11:48 AM	#11
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020	RE: Passing Improvements... Consider the following WhoDat , " The Catch " 49ers game . Montana threw the ball to a position or a spot ??? " The Spot " being a single fixed location with the ending origin known , would have been called like this : Yo Joe hit the fat dude 8 rows up and 15 seats over from the center isle , right between the eyes and hope Dwight Clark can catch it or at least the clock will stop . OR Joe throw the ball high and outside to Clark in the back of the end zone and if he misses it the clock will stop . You did not answer the question WhoDat ......
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020

06-22-2005, 01:05 PM	#12
Euphoria 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 7,601 Blog Entries: 5	RE: Passing Improvements... I thought I was playing to much madden 2005

06-22-2005, 03:14 PM	#13
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	RE: Passing Improvements... I'm confused 08. You're now trying to differentiate between a "spot" versus a "position?" Ultimately, they have essentially the same meaning to me, but I'll humor you because I can't wait to see where this is going... By your definition, I take a "spot" to be some exactly point or coordinates in space and time. A "position" is a set of coordinates relative to the player - is that correct? Given those definitions, Montana threw to a "position," which I take to be illustrated in your second example. Now what?
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631

06-22-2005, 03:17 PM	#14
Euphoria 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 7,601 Blog Entries: 5	RE: Passing Improvements... You say potato... I say tomato

06-22-2005, 05:40 PM	#15
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020	RE: Passing Improvements... Great QBs understand the game such that on any given play against any given defense, they know which WR is most likely to be open, and even the point when he is most likely to come open. They often anticipate and "throw to a spot" b/c the WR hasn't broken yet, but they know when he does he will be open. The next issue is more physical than mental - and that's putting the ball in a place where the WR can not only catch it, but do something with it. Warner excelled in St. Louis at putting the ball 6 inches to a foot in front of his WR's leading shoulder - allowing his wideouts to catch balls in-stride and often leading them away from hits than into them. Rough guess is that in a typical power west coast offense of today , 25 % of the passes are spot passes . The quarterback throws to a spot where the receiver is going to be and the route is timed based upon a clean break . Thought on the Rams comment from earlier , have you taken into consideration the routes the receivers are running in St. Louis . The Rams offense dictates that receivers are never out of the play , they run longer routes and continue to hold the routes until the whistle .
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020

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06-23-2005, 10:26 AM	#16
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	RE: Passing Improvements... Dude, 08, I'm missing your point here. Why not lay it out for me real simple-like? I said I thought AB lacked ability in two key areas in which great QBs normally excel. The first is mental, and deals with reading a defense, anticipating a break, knowing which route will work best, etc. The second being totally physical and relating to his inability to throw a touch pass or put a ball in a spot where his WRs can do something with it. I've always thought that you agreed with that. So what are you trying to say here?
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06-23-2005, 10:34 AM	#17
Euphoria 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 7,601 Blog Entries: 5	RE: Passing Improvements... I am more anxious to see how Brooks reacts to a new system. I see at sometimes during the past couple of seasons it could have been the system...

06-23-2005, 10:51 AM	#18
FrenzyFan 100th Post Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 406	When I watch Brooks play, what I see is someone "frantic" and I don't expect that to change. He never appears comfortable on any play that is not a hand-off to DM. On almost every passing play, he appears pinicked even before the pressure becomes a problem. It appears to me that he fires most passes with much greater force than is necessary to make the play, and usually with almost no effort to "set" before he throws. It almost looks like he doesn't know what to expect from a play, even when he is the one calling it to the others, and has to try and "react" rather than "act". He looks jerky in his execution, which probably accounts for this reported accuracy in camp and his seeming inaccuracy in games. At the speed of the NFL game, "reacting" almost always carries that 50-50 success/fail rate. I think Brooks' natural athleticism, coupled with the talent of his receiving corps and their foreknowlege of how the play is "supposed" to go - account for Brooks, in my opinion, inflated statistics. There are other factors (such as playing from behind, etc). Most of the above is the mental part of the game, in my opinion. From what I see, it leads me to these possible conclusions: 1 - Brooks never understood the offense, or the offensive game plan. 2 - Brooks is not a quick thinker, who can predict on-field outcomes - even after all these years as the starter. Nothing has convinced me our Saints will be any different as long as Brooks is our QB. Our coaching staff can attempt to compensate for this by simplifying the playbook and adopting a more power running game, but I don't think we will ever transition to a championship team with Brooks at the helm. This is, of course, just my opinion based on what I see when I watch Brooks practice and play.
FrenzyFan 100th Post Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 406