Passing Improvements...

tiggerpolice · 06-20-2005, 12:06 PM

89862. Passing Improvements...
by YeaSaintsWin, 6/20/05 11:49 ET
This weekend, I noticed this kid trying to cool himself slurping from an Icee cup half his size and was reminded of my younger days. I remember when I would stand in the corner and envision being Larry Bird as I launched the perfect shot towards the basket. After many shots missed the mark and only a few found a kind rim-assisted score, I thought maybe I should switch court heroes and pattern my game after guys who played closer to the basket.
It was easier in the game of football. With the score tied 70-70, we always needed a TD pass from Roger "The Dodger" Staubach to win the game. No one ran the ball and with meer minutes remaining before Moms would start calling us off the playground, each score was crucial. So, with that much pressure, I would only throw to guys who would make the catch.

Fast forward in life through my entry level jobs and to the positions that required employee supervision. When I had a project that needed to get done, I would go to that over-worked and under-paid staff person who I could trust to get the job done. Why? If you have been there, you don't ask that question. If you have no clue, then you wouldn't understand the explanation.

The Saints reconstruction of the WR corps can be viewed from a number of perspectives. And the coaches saw the need and have responded with moves that have drawn the attention from many fans, but why should they?

Jerome "Pathetic" Pathon was over-paid and underperforming. In 3 years, for $2.5 million per year, Pathon caught 111 passes. Pathon was often injured and he was making $2.5 million per year (oh, I said that). To upgrade the slot WR position, the Saints offered WR Troy Brown $1.2 million per year because $2 million is to much to pay for your 3rd WR. And while Pathetic caught some balls he was a poor slot WR.

The upgrade of the slot WR was necessary for the Saints. When looking for first downs, your passing game needs a pair of reliable hands in the middle of the field. Talman Gardner was the Saints future in the middle but now that job seems up for Poole, Hakim or Henderson to claim. And, as a person who knows how to chose substance over style, I don't blame the coaches.

Will the Saints miss Pathon? No. Devery Henderson or Micheal Lewis can have a 30-catch campaign. I think the Saints want more production from the position and have added veterans to accomplish that.

Do I think that WRs are doomed to fail in New Orleans because of the QB? No. Because QBs are taught to throw to a spot away from the defense and WRs are taught to catch the ball. If Michael Clayton can catch 80 balls as a slot WR, why should Saints fans settle for 30 catches from their slot WR?

And before someone posts a stat that Pathon only dropping a few passes, ask yourself if the dropped ball had been catches, could there have been an opportunity to catch more? Success breeds success.

GO Saints...

http://www.nola.com/forums/saints/

WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK???????

LordOfEntropy · 06-20-2005, 12:48 PM

I'll agree that Pathon was overpaid. However, bringing in Hakim as a replacement just doesn't seem like much of an improvement to me. Isn't the article above saying that sure hands are the requirement for a slot receiver?

The only thing I'm 'sure' about with Hakim is that his hands are NOT 'sure'.

Euphoria · 06-20-2005, 01:37 PM

I think the Saints offense is going to be more productive but I don't know if that means the numbers will improve in the passing game. The o-line improvement will help the running game considerable and with that even more runs. More play action and quicker check offs. I don't know if our slot needs to get 80 passes a season, if he does than something went wrong... terribley wrong.

mayoj · 06-20-2005, 02:11 PM

Basically, all this article does is bash Pathon. I agree on his being overpaid but not on what he brought to the team. I think he did the job they asked him to do and that he was actually pretty clutch. We had to let him go due to money, but don't take away from what he gave to us. I think at that spot, unless Henderson really steps up, we should be content with equal production.

saintz08 · 06-20-2005, 08:41 PM

Do I think that WRs are doomed to fail in New Orleans because of the QB? No. Because QBs are taught to throw to a spot away from the defense and WRs are taught to catch the ball.

This makes me wonder if he has ever seen a Saints game ...

Quarterbacks are taught to lead receivers into the open area with the ball . Brooks would be better suited with a circus staff for the receiving core . Midgets to catch those shoe lace passes and the tall guys to catch the air balls .

I wonder if those questioning Pathon , take into consideration how many times Brooks fixates on one receiver on any certain play .

Euphoria · 06-21-2005, 11:00 AM

In Junior High or High School they are taught to lead... but in Pros you have to throw where the only peron can possible catch the ball is your WR. You are taught to throw the ball to a spot on the field where the WR is suppose to end up there if he runs the right route.

saintz08 · 06-21-2005, 12:12 PM

You are taught to throw the ball to a spot on the field where the WR is suppose to end up there if he runs the right route.

Not all passes are timing route passes . Standard R-11 and L-1 routes are really not fixed position routes . Quarterbacks have to adjust all the time based upon bump coverage .The first option is to put the ball in a position to advance or lead the receiver in his route .Option two is to just get the player the ball in a position to make a catch and the third option is to put the ball in a position in which he might be able to make a play .

Only the DB coach teaches the quarterback to throw into the defense .

WhoDat · 06-21-2005, 12:13 PM

If you ever watch any of the many shows on TV that claim to be "analytical," then you've heard by now the things that the analysts claim really differentiates QBs is often manifested in where they "place the ball." Think about what the talking heads said about Warner when he was with the Rams, or what they say about Peyton now.

Great QBs understand the game such that on any given play against any given defense, they know which WR is most likely to be open, and even the point when he is most likely to come open. They often anticipate and "throw to a spot" b/c the WR hasn't broken yet, but they know when he does he will be open. The next issue is more physical than mental - and that's putting the ball in a place where the WR can not only catch it, but do something with it. Warner excelled in St. Louis at putting the ball 6 inches to a foot in front of his WR's leading shoulder - allowing his wideouts to catch balls in-stride and often leading them away from hits than into them.

If you believe what I just said, and there's no reason you shouldn't b/c if you've watched ESPN, FOX, CBS, HBO, etc you've probably heard the same thing, then two major concerns about AB should now be present.

The first is his ability to fully comprehend what the offensive coordinator is trying to do with a play. From there he must be able to read the defense and recognize which part of the play, or which variation of it, is most likely to work. Third, he has to read the defense as the play progresses without telegraphing his intentions, and then anticipate the WR's break. These are all cerebral issues, and I don't feel AB excels at any of them. I wonder about his ability to understand what the offensive strategy is. I've seen him lock on to WRs so I know he doesn't disguise plays well. Finally, he often has to see the the WR is open before he throws the ball. He doesn't seem to be able to anticipate a break very well.

The other issue is the physical part of it. We all know AB is athletic and has a cannon arm, but he lacks touch. What good does that cannon do for yo in squeezing balls into tight places, if they are uncatchable or require your WR to sellout and get creamed to catch them? Brooks rarely, IMO, delivers the ball on-target and in-stride. Most commonly his WRs are stopping, sliding, ducking-and-covering, skying, or diving to catch his passes - and often times they are stationary even before he throws the ball. This leads me to believe that even if AB had the mental components necessary, he would still lack the touch needed to execute accordingly. The guy has enough raw athleticism to be moderately successful in this league, but I don't see him having a QB Rating in the 90's all that often, and rarely, if ever, over 95. Most of the good to great QBs these days have ratings in the upper 90s to low 100s.

saintz08 · 06-22-2005, 12:33 AM

Great QBs understand the game such that on any given play against any given defense, they know which WR is most likely to be open, and even the point when he is most likely to come open. They often anticipate and "throw to a spot" b/c the WR hasn't broken yet, but they know when he does he will be open.

Does anyone miss the Bold feature but me ????

Who Dat you never told me you were watching the beer drinkers football anaysis , I love the Sean Salisbury analysis , he is rather repetitive and redundant I think he will be the future John Madden .

Consider the following WhoDat , " The Catch " 49ers game . Montana threw the ball to a position or a spot ??? " The Spot " being a single fixed location with the ending origin known , would have been called like this :

Yo Joe hit the fat dude 8 rows up and 15 seats over from the center isle , right between the eyes and hope Dwight Clark can catch it or at least the clock will stop .

OR

Joe throw the ball high and outside to Clark in the back of the end zone and if he misses it the clock will stop .

When the quarterback scrambles out of the pocket on a busted play and is signaling the receiver is he

a. Sending a new set of highly sophisticated coordinates to a fixed position spot .

b. Sending a delivery signal to ball position , like finger straight , get ready here comes the laser or finger down , hope you have a shovel cause here comes a turfie .

By the way , most quarterbacks have a pretty good idea of where the ball is going when they hit the line and read the defense . I know that is confusing when you are a Saints fan because Brooks cannot read defenses ( Direct quote Safety Cleveland Browns ).

WhoDat · 06-22-2005, 09:32 AM

What are you trying to say with that post 08? I'm not sure what your point is.

06-20-2005, 12:06 PM	#1
tiggerpolice 500th Post Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: new orleans Posts: 584	Passing Improvements... 89862. Passing Improvements... by YeaSaintsWin, 6/20/05 11:49 ET This weekend, I noticed this kid trying to cool himself slurping from an Icee cup half his size and was reminded of my younger days. I remember when I would stand in the corner and envision being Larry Bird as I launched the perfect shot towards the basket. After many shots missed the mark and only a few found a kind rim-assisted score, I thought maybe I should switch court heroes and pattern my game after guys who played closer to the basket. It was easier in the game of football. With the score tied 70-70, we always needed a TD pass from Roger "The Dodger" Staubach to win the game. No one ran the ball and with meer minutes remaining before Moms would start calling us off the playground, each score was crucial. So, with that much pressure, I would only throw to guys who would make the catch. Fast forward in life through my entry level jobs and to the positions that required employee supervision. When I had a project that needed to get done, I would go to that over-worked and under-paid staff person who I could trust to get the job done. Why? If you have been there, you don't ask that question. If you have no clue, then you wouldn't understand the explanation. The Saints reconstruction of the WR corps can be viewed from a number of perspectives. And the coaches saw the need and have responded with moves that have drawn the attention from many fans, but why should they? Jerome "Pathetic" Pathon was over-paid and underperforming. In 3 years, for $2.5 million per year, Pathon caught 111 passes. Pathon was often injured and he was making $2.5 million per year (oh, I said that). To upgrade the slot WR position, the Saints offered WR Troy Brown $1.2 million per year because $2 million is to much to pay for your 3rd WR. And while Pathetic caught some balls he was a poor slot WR. The upgrade of the slot WR was necessary for the Saints. When looking for first downs, your passing game needs a pair of reliable hands in the middle of the field. Talman Gardner was the Saints future in the middle but now that job seems up for Poole, Hakim or Henderson to claim. And, as a person who knows how to chose substance over style, I don't blame the coaches. Will the Saints miss Pathon? No. Devery Henderson or Micheal Lewis can have a 30-catch campaign. I think the Saints want more production from the position and have added veterans to accomplish that. Do I think that WRs are doomed to fail in New Orleans because of the QB? No. Because QBs are taught to throw to a spot away from the defense and WRs are taught to catch the ball. If Michael Clayton can catch 80 balls as a slot WR, why should Saints fans settle for 30 catches from their slot WR? And before someone posts a stat that Pathon only dropping a few passes, ask yourself if the dropped ball had been catches, could there have been an opportunity to catch more? Success breeds success. GO Saints... http://www.nola.com/forums/saints/ WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK???????

06-20-2005, 12:48 PM	#2
LordOfEntropy 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Cary, NC Posts: 1,838	RE: Passing Improvements... I'll agree that Pathon was overpaid. However, bringing in Hakim as a replacement just doesn't seem like much of an improvement to me. Isn't the article above saying that sure hands are the requirement for a slot receiver? The only thing I'm 'sure' about with Hakim is that his hands are NOT 'sure'.

06-20-2005, 01:37 PM	#3
Euphoria 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 7,601 Blog Entries: 5	RE: Passing Improvements... I think the Saints offense is going to be more productive but I don't know if that means the numbers will improve in the passing game. The o-line improvement will help the running game considerable and with that even more runs. More play action and quicker check offs. I don't know if our slot needs to get 80 passes a season, if he does than something went wrong... terribley wrong.

06-20-2005, 02:11 PM	#4
mayoj 100th Post Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Charleston, SC Posts: 109	RE: Passing Improvements... Basically, all this article does is bash Pathon. I agree on his being overpaid but not on what he brought to the team. I think he did the job they asked him to do and that he was actually pretty clutch. We had to let him go due to money, but don't take away from what he gave to us. I think at that spot, unless Henderson really steps up, we should be content with equal production.

06-20-2005, 08:41 PM	#5
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020	RE: Passing Improvements... Do I think that WRs are doomed to fail in New Orleans because of the QB? No. Because QBs are taught to throw to a spot away from the defense and WRs are taught to catch the ball. This makes me wonder if he has ever seen a Saints game ... Quarterbacks are taught to lead receivers into the open area with the ball . Brooks would be better suited with a circus staff for the receiving core . Midgets to catch those shoe lace passes and the tall guys to catch the air balls . I wonder if those questioning Pathon , take into consideration how many times Brooks fixates on one receiver on any certain play .
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020

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06-21-2005, 11:00 AM	#6
Euphoria 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 7,601 Blog Entries: 5	RE: Passing Improvements... In Junior High or High School they are taught to lead... but in Pros you have to throw where the only peron can possible catch the ball is your WR. You are taught to throw the ball to a spot on the field where the WR is suppose to end up there if he runs the right route.

06-21-2005, 12:12 PM	#7
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020	RE: Passing Improvements... You are taught to throw the ball to a spot on the field where the WR is suppose to end up there if he runs the right route. Not all passes are timing route passes . Standard R-11 and L-1 routes are really not fixed position routes . Quarterbacks have to adjust all the time based upon bump coverage .The first option is to put the ball in a position to advance or lead the receiver in his route .Option two is to just get the player the ball in a position to make a catch and the third option is to put the ball in a position in which he might be able to make a play . Only the DB coach teaches the quarterback to throw into the defense .
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020

06-21-2005, 12:13 PM	#8
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	RE: Passing Improvements... If you ever watch any of the many shows on TV that claim to be "analytical," then you've heard by now the things that the analysts claim really differentiates QBs is often manifested in where they "place the ball." Think about what the talking heads said about Warner when he was with the Rams, or what they say about Peyton now. Great QBs understand the game such that on any given play against any given defense, they know which WR is most likely to be open, and even the point when he is most likely to come open. They often anticipate and "throw to a spot" b/c the WR hasn't broken yet, but they know when he does he will be open. The next issue is more physical than mental - and that's putting the ball in a place where the WR can not only catch it, but do something with it. Warner excelled in St. Louis at putting the ball 6 inches to a foot in front of his WR's leading shoulder - allowing his wideouts to catch balls in-stride and often leading them away from hits than into them. If you believe what I just said, and there's no reason you shouldn't b/c if you've watched ESPN, FOX, CBS, HBO, etc you've probably heard the same thing, then two major concerns about AB should now be present. The first is his ability to fully comprehend what the offensive coordinator is trying to do with a play. From there he must be able to read the defense and recognize which part of the play, or which variation of it, is most likely to work. Third, he has to read the defense as the play progresses without telegraphing his intentions, and then anticipate the WR's break. These are all cerebral issues, and I don't feel AB excels at any of them. I wonder about his ability to understand what the offensive strategy is. I've seen him lock on to WRs so I know he doesn't disguise plays well. Finally, he often has to see the the WR is open before he throws the ball. He doesn't seem to be able to anticipate a break very well. The other issue is the physical part of it. We all know AB is athletic and has a cannon arm, but he lacks touch. What good does that cannon do for yo in squeezing balls into tight places, if they are uncatchable or require your WR to sellout and get creamed to catch them? Brooks rarely, IMO, delivers the ball on-target and in-stride. Most commonly his WRs are stopping, sliding, ducking-and-covering, skying, or diving to catch his passes - and often times they are stationary even before he throws the ball. This leads me to believe that even if AB had the mental components necessary, he would still lack the touch needed to execute accordingly. The guy has enough raw athleticism to be moderately successful in this league, but I don't see him having a QB Rating in the 90's all that often, and rarely, if ever, over 95. Most of the good to great QBs these days have ratings in the upper 90s to low 100s.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

06-22-2005, 12:33 AM	#9
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020	RE: Passing Improvements... Great QBs understand the game such that on any given play against any given defense, they know which WR is most likely to be open, and even the point when he is most likely to come open. They often anticipate and "throw to a spot" b/c the WR hasn't broken yet, but they know when he does he will be open. Does anyone miss the Bold feature but me ???? Who Dat you never told me you were watching the beer drinkers football anaysis , I love the Sean Salisbury analysis , he is rather repetitive and redundant I think he will be the future John Madden . Consider the following WhoDat , " The Catch " 49ers game . Montana threw the ball to a position or a spot ??? " The Spot " being a single fixed location with the ending origin known , would have been called like this : Yo Joe hit the fat dude 8 rows up and 15 seats over from the center isle , right between the eyes and hope Dwight Clark can catch it or at least the clock will stop . OR Joe throw the ball high and outside to Clark in the back of the end zone and if he misses it the clock will stop . When the quarterback scrambles out of the pocket on a busted play and is signaling the receiver is he a. Sending a new set of highly sophisticated coordinates to a fixed position spot . b. Sending a delivery signal to ball position , like finger straight , get ready here comes the laser or finger down , hope you have a shovel cause here comes a turfie . By the way , most quarterbacks have a pretty good idea of where the ball is going when they hit the line and read the defense . I know that is confusing when you are a Saints fan because Brooks cannot read defenses ( Direct quote Safety Cleveland Browns ).
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020

06-22-2005, 09:32 AM	#10
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	RE: Passing Improvements... What are you trying to say with that post 08? I'm not sure what your point is.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631