And so it begins...

SaintFanInATLHELL · 07-25-2019, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by lee909

Reports in Michael Thomas not turned up and holding out till he gets a new deal.

Don't get how you sign a contract for x years then decide you want a new deal now and won't honour the deal you signed. Poor form

Not in the NFL. The NFL as a league has 3 hallmarks: contracts are not guaranteed, injuries are guaranteed, and performance is king.

MT goes out on the practice field like Dez did and ruptures his Achilles. It's game over.

MT has historic production over the first 3 seasons of his career. NFL records. He's outplayed his contract. So he needs to secure his financial future before he steps out on the field again.

BTW it works the other way too. A team will restructure a contract or cut a player in a hot minute if their production doesn't match the dollars they are being paid. After the guaranteed money, a contract isn't worth the paper it's written on.

One also needs to understand how NFL contracts are structured. Because guaranteed money is spread across the cap, the tendency is to have extensions of long length to lower the cap hit. The problem is that the market moves in the meantime and players often outplay their extensions. A contract is pretty much over once the guaranteed money runs out. So early signing extensions are the players' way of restructuring contracts for their benefit.

Just advocating for Thomas. He's a 2nd round pick that is playing like a Hall of Famer. He should get his money. And honestly I don't believe the Saints have a problem giving it to him. It's just a matter of crossing t's and dotting i's. I also believe there's a game of chicken going on between the Saints, Atlanta, Thomas, and Julio Jones, who is also trying to get his contract refreshed. Jones cannot sign any new deal before tomorrow (Friday) because the Clowns threw extra money at him last year and a deal has to hold for a calendar year before it can be amended. So whomever jumps last will probably get the best deal.

SFIAH

The Dude · 07-25-2019, 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by lee909

Reports in Michael Thomas not turned up and holding out till he gets a new deal.

Don't get how you sign a contract for x years then decide you want a new deal now and won't honour the deal you signed. Poor form

No it’s not. BOTH sides have said since the offseason began that they wanted to go ahead and get the contract done this year.
Alternatively the Saints could let him play out his contract and wind up in a bidding war with some team that decides they want to pay him 25 mil a year and build their offense around him.
Right now the contract to beat is OBJ. Next year it could be someone else’s contract at a higher number.

voodooido · 07-26-2019, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by lee909

Reports in Michael Thomas not turned up and holding out till he gets a new deal.

Don't get how you sign a contract for x years then decide you want a new deal now and won't honour the deal you signed. Poor form

The guy is a beast but he is not worth being the highest paid wr. Trade him now and let brees turn these other wr’s into studs. Do I want to keep MT? Absolutely, but he is not worth 20 mil a year

jeanpierre · 07-26-2019, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by voodooido

The guy is a beast but he (Mike Thomas) is not worth being the highest paid wr. Trade him now and let brees turn these other wr’s into studs. Do I want to keep MT? Absolutely, but he is not worth 20 mil a year

I'm nervous about committing so much salary cap to one player, but @CantGuardMike was the among the best WRs in the league last season...

He ranked thusly among WRs:

REC (1st)

ReYD (6th)

ReTD (10th)

Re% (1st)

ReYd/Gm (8th)

Should he be paid as the best WR in the game, , it's not conclusive, but there's strong evidence (e.g. Receptions, Hands) that he is...

CHA_CHING · 07-26-2019, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

I'm nervous about committing so much salary cap to one player, but @CantGuardMike was the among the best WRs in the league last season...

He ranked thusly among WRs:

REC (1st)

ReYD (6th)

ReTD (10th)

Re% (1st)

ReYd/Gm (8th)

Should he be paid as the best WR in the game, , it's not conclusive, but there's strong evidence (e.g. Receptions, Hands) that he is...

If we go by PFR's rankings, MT was the best receiver last year with an AV ranking of 18. Also tied with Drew for the highest AV ranking on our team.

He was hands down the best receiver in the league last year and he caught around 60% of Brees' passes.

jeanpierre · 07-26-2019, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by CHA_CHING

If we go by PFR's rankings, MT was the best receiver last year with an AV ranking of 18. Also tied with Drew for the highest AV ranking on our team.

He was hands down the best receiver in the league last year and he caught around 60% of Brees' passes.

Per Pro Football Reference, it was 83%...83%...

K Major · 07-26-2019, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by voodooido

The guy is a beast but he is not worth being the highest paid wr. Trade him now and let brees turn these other wr’s into studs. Do I want to keep MT? Absolutely, but he is not worth 20 mil a year

Complete

.

Anyone that believes Michael Thomas is a product of Brees hasn't watched games closely enough or understand football. Easily a top 3 WR in the league as a route runner and creating separation.

Those "let Brees turn these other WR"s into studs" days are long gone (see week 13 of 2018 and beyond).

Originally the number was 22M & the Saints brass offer was 18M. 20M is fair in today's market.

AsylumGuido · 07-26-2019, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by K Major

Complete .

Anyone that believes Michael Thomas is a product of Brees hasn't watched games closely enough or understand football. Easily a top 3 WR in the league as a route runner and creating separation.

Those "let Brees turn these other WR"s into studs" days are long gone (see week 13 of 2018 and beyond).

Originally the number was 22M & the Saints brass offer was 18M. 20M is fair in today's market.

Agreed. But more importantly, the average amount per year is meaningless. What is important is the guaranteed amount and how soon it is realized. The Saints can give him a four year $100M deal with $40M guaranteed in the first two years that is actually worth less than a four year $80M deal with $50M guaranteed over the first three years.

SaintFanInATLHELL · 07-27-2019, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by voodooido

The guy is a beast but he is not worth being the highest paid wr. Trade him now and let brees turn these other wr’s into studs. Do I want to keep MT? Absolutely, but he is not worth 20 mil a year

This same argument is trotted out each and every time a contract comes up for an elite player asking for market value. I finally figured out this thought comes from the combination of the fact that it's never happened before as the market keeps growing, and that many simply do not pay attention to the salary cap. In the 9 years since the last CBA was agreed to the salary cap has grown nearly 60% from $120 million to a current $188 million. CBA rules dictate that both a certain percentage of revenues for the NFL be paid to the players via the cap, and that a certain percentage of the cap (89% average over a 4 year period) has to be spent on the players for each team. Also notice that the number of players has not changed over that period. Each team still carries a 53 man squad.

So the consequence is that salaries are going to go up. And keep going up. So just because no receiver has had a $20 million salary before doesn't mean that a $20 million salary for a receiver in 2019 is out of line. It's the same reason we have $35 million QBs, which never happened before, or $20+ million defensive ends, which never happened before, or $14 million running backs, which never happened before. The money has to be spent.

I put it into the form of a question: MT has done in the last 3 years what no receiver, not Jerry Rice, not Randy Moss, not OBJ, not Jones, not Antonio Brown, not Calvin Johnson, not anyone ever has done in the first 3 years of their receiving career. So exactly why is a $20 million salary for a receiver, which of course has never happened yet, not be worth it?

I think we're going to have to stop looking at salaries in terms of dollars and looking at them as salary cap percentages. Just a quick example. In 2011 the top receiver salary cap hit was Larry Fitzgerald with a $16.25M cap hit. With a $120M cap that represents a 13.5% total of the cap that year. A $20M cap hit, which BTW Thomas would not create in 2019 even if his overall salary is in the $20M range, represents a 10.6% total of the cap. It's the same in the QB market too. Stafford's $29.5M cap hit this year is 15.6% of the total. In 2011 the highest percentage was 14.4% (Mark Sanchez! OUCH!) even though the difference in cap salary between the two is $12M.

I hope my point is clear. Don't just look at the number and say "that's too much". Look at the number in the context of the salary cap the number is in then decide its value. Getting MT locked up for 4 to 5 years will be worth every penny spent.

SFIAH

AsylumGuido · 07-27-2019, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

This same argument is trotted out each and every time a contract comes up for an elite player asking for market value. I finally figured out this thought comes from the combination of the fact that it's never happened before as the market keeps growing, and that many simply do not pay attention to the salary cap. In the 9 years since the last CBA was agreed to the salary cap has grown nearly 60% from $120 million to a current $188 million. CBA rules dictate that both a certain percentage of revenues for the NFL be paid to the players via the cap, and that a certain percentage of the cap (89% average over a 4 year period) has to be spent on the players for each team. Also notice that the number of players has not changed over that period. Each team still carries a 53 man squad.

So the consequence is that salaries are going to go up. And keep going up. So just because no receiver has had a $20 million salary before doesn't mean that a $20 million salary for a receiver in 2019 is out of line. It's the same reason we have $35 million QBs, which never happened before, or $20+ million defensive ends, which never happened before, or $14 million running backs, which never happened before. The money has to be spent.

I put it into the form of a question: MT has done in the last 3 years what no receiver, not Jerry Rice, not Randy Moss, not OBJ, not Jones, not Antonio Brown, not Calvin Johnson, not anyone ever has done in the first 3 years of their receiving career. So exactly why is a $20 million salary for a receiver, which of course has never happened yet, not be worth it?

I think we're going to have to stop looking at salaries in terms of dollars and looking at them as salary cap percentages. Just a quick example. In 2011 the top receiver salary cap hit was Larry Fitzgerald with a $16.25M cap hit. With a $120M cap that represents a 13.5% total of the cap that year. A $20M cap hit, which BTW Thomas would not create in 2019 even if his overall salary is in the $20M range, represents a 10.6% total of the cap. It's the same in the QB market too. Stafford's $29.5M cap hit this year is 15.6% of the total. In 2011 the highest percentage was 14.4% (Mark Sanchez! OUCH!) even though the difference in cap salary between the two is $12M.

I hope my point is clear. Don't just look at the number and say "that's too much". Look at the number in the context of the salary cap the number is in then decide its value. Getting MT locked up for 4 to 5 years will be worth every penny spent.

SFIAH

Very well put, SFIAH! The very point I have tried to get across for years. Ever since the salary cap came into existence fans have been having an issue understanding this very simple concept. The same fans blowing a gasket over new salary levels in the NFL would have been having a baby over having to pay today's price (you know what it is) for gas thirty years ago ($1.00 per gallon).

07-25-2019, 12:53 PM	#1
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,783	Re: And so it begins... Originally Posted by lee909 Reports in Michael Thomas not turned up and holding out till he gets a new deal. Don't get how you sign a contract for x years then decide you want a new deal now and won't honour the deal you signed. Poor form Not in the NFL. The NFL as a league has 3 hallmarks: contracts are not guaranteed, injuries are guaranteed, and performance is king. MT goes out on the practice field like Dez did and ruptures his Achilles. It's game over. MT has historic production over the first 3 seasons of his career. NFL records. He's outplayed his contract. So he needs to secure his financial future before he steps out on the field again. BTW it works the other way too. A team will restructure a contract or cut a player in a hot minute if their production doesn't match the dollars they are being paid. After the guaranteed money, a contract isn't worth the paper it's written on. One also needs to understand how NFL contracts are structured. Because guaranteed money is spread across the cap, the tendency is to have extensions of long length to lower the cap hit. The problem is that the market moves in the meantime and players often outplay their extensions. A contract is pretty much over once the guaranteed money runs out. So early signing extensions are the players' way of restructuring contracts for their benefit. Just advocating for Thomas. He's a 2nd round pick that is playing like a Hall of Famer. He should get his money. And honestly I don't believe the Saints have a problem giving it to him. It's just a matter of crossing t's and dotting i's. I also believe there's a game of chicken going on between the Saints, Atlanta, Thomas, and Julio Jones, who is also trying to get his contract refreshed. Jones cannot sign any new deal before tomorrow (Friday) because the Clowns threw extra money at him last year and a deal has to hold for a calendar year before it can be amended. So whomever jumps last will probably get the best deal. SFIAH Crusader, Barry from MS, Budsdrinker and 10 others like this.
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.

07-25-2019, 07:25 PM	#2
The Dude 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 9,055	Re: And so it begins... Originally Posted by lee909 Reports in Michael Thomas not turned up and holding out till he gets a new deal. Don't get how you sign a contract for x years then decide you want a new deal now and won't honour the deal you signed. Poor form No it’s not. BOTH sides have said since the offseason began that they wanted to go ahead and get the contract done this year. Alternatively the Saints could let him play out his contract and wind up in a bidding war with some team that decides they want to pay him 25 mil a year and build their offense around him. Right now the contract to beat is OBJ. Next year it could be someone else’s contract at a higher number. darksoul35 likes this.
The Dude 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 9,055

07-26-2019, 10:42 AM	#3
voodooido 1000 Posts + Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 2,834	Re: And so it begins... Originally Posted by lee909 Reports in Michael Thomas not turned up and holding out till he gets a new deal. Don't get how you sign a contract for x years then decide you want a new deal now and won't honour the deal you signed. Poor form The guy is a beast but he is not worth being the highest paid wr. Trade him now and let brees turn these other wr’s into studs. Do I want to keep MT? Absolutely, but he is not worth 20 mil a year
voodooido 1000 Posts + Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 2,834

07-26-2019, 10:54 AM	#4
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: And so it begins... Originally Posted by voodooido The guy is a beast but he (Mike Thomas) is not worth being the highest paid wr. Trade him now and let brees turn these other wr’s into studs. Do I want to keep MT? Absolutely, but he is not worth 20 mil a year I'm nervous about committing so much salary cap to one player, but @CantGuardMike was the among the best WRs in the league last season... He ranked thusly among WRs: REC (1st) ReYD (6th) ReTD (10th) Re% (1st) ReYd/Gm (8th) Should he be paid as the best WR in the game, , it's not conclusive, but there's strong evidence (e.g. Receptions, Hands) that he is... SmashMouth and CHA_CHING like this.

07-26-2019, 01:50 PM	#5
CHA_CHING 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jan 2019 Location: Mobile, AL Posts: 1,159	Re: And so it begins... Originally Posted by jeanpierre I'm nervous about committing so much salary cap to one player, but @CantGuardMike was the among the best WRs in the league last season... He ranked thusly among WRs: REC (1st) ReYD (6th) ReTD (10th) Re% (1st) ReYd/Gm (8th) Should he be paid as the best WR in the game, , it's not conclusive, but there's strong evidence (e.g. Receptions, Hands) that he is... If we go by PFR's rankings, MT was the best receiver last year with an AV ranking of 18. Also tied with Drew for the highest AV ranking on our team. He was hands down the best receiver in the league last year and he caught around 60% of Brees' passes.

07-26-2019, 04:09 PM	#6
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: And so it begins... Originally Posted by CHA_CHING If we go by PFR's rankings, MT was the best receiver last year with an AV ranking of 18. Also tied with Drew for the highest AV ranking on our team. He was hands down the best receiver in the league last year and he caught around 60% of Brees' passes. Per Pro Football Reference, it was 83%...83%...

07-26-2019, 11:07 AM	#7
K Major Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Bedford, TX Posts: 24,799 Blog Entries: 3	Re: And so it begins... Originally Posted by voodooido The guy is a beast but he is not worth being the highest paid wr. Trade him now and let brees turn these other wr’s into studs. Do I want to keep MT? Absolutely, but he is not worth 20 mil a year Complete . Anyone that believes Michael Thomas is a product of Brees hasn't watched games closely enough or understand football. Easily a top 3 WR in the league as a route runner and creating separation. Those "let Brees turn these other WR"s into studs" days are long gone (see week 13 of 2018 and beyond). Originally the number was 22M & the Saints brass offer was 18M. 20M is fair in today's market. AsylumGuido likes this.

07-26-2019, 11:58 AM	#8
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,574	Re: And so it begins... Originally Posted by K Major Complete . Anyone that believes Michael Thomas is a product of Brees hasn't watched games closely enough or understand football. Easily a top 3 WR in the league as a route runner and creating separation. Those "let Brees turn these other WR"s into studs" days are long gone (see week 13 of 2018 and beyond). Originally the number was 22M & the Saints brass offer was 18M. 20M is fair in today's market. Agreed. But more importantly, the average amount per year is meaningless. What is important is the guaranteed amount and how soon it is realized. The Saints can give him a four year $100M deal with $40M guaranteed in the first two years that is actually worth less than a four year $80M deal with $50M guaranteed over the first three years.

07-27-2019, 09:46 AM	#9
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,783	Re: And so it begins... Originally Posted by voodooido The guy is a beast but he is not worth being the highest paid wr. Trade him now and let brees turn these other wr’s into studs. Do I want to keep MT? Absolutely, but he is not worth 20 mil a year This same argument is trotted out each and every time a contract comes up for an elite player asking for market value. I finally figured out this thought comes from the combination of the fact that it's never happened before as the market keeps growing, and that many simply do not pay attention to the salary cap. In the 9 years since the last CBA was agreed to the salary cap has grown nearly 60% from $120 million to a current $188 million. CBA rules dictate that both a certain percentage of revenues for the NFL be paid to the players via the cap, and that a certain percentage of the cap (89% average over a 4 year period) has to be spent on the players for each team. Also notice that the number of players has not changed over that period. Each team still carries a 53 man squad. So the consequence is that salaries are going to go up. And keep going up. So just because no receiver has had a $20 million salary before doesn't mean that a $20 million salary for a receiver in 2019 is out of line. It's the same reason we have $35 million QBs, which never happened before, or $20+ million defensive ends, which never happened before, or $14 million running backs, which never happened before. The money has to be spent. I put it into the form of a question: MT has done in the last 3 years what no receiver, not Jerry Rice, not Randy Moss, not OBJ, not Jones, not Antonio Brown, not Calvin Johnson, not anyone ever has done in the first 3 years of their receiving career. So exactly why is a $20 million salary for a receiver, which of course has never happened yet, not be worth it? I think we're going to have to stop looking at salaries in terms of dollars and looking at them as salary cap percentages. Just a quick example. In 2011 the top receiver salary cap hit was Larry Fitzgerald with a $16.25M cap hit. With a $120M cap that represents a 13.5% total of the cap that year. A $20M cap hit, which BTW Thomas would not create in 2019 even if his overall salary is in the $20M range, represents a 10.6% total of the cap. It's the same in the QB market too. Stafford's $29.5M cap hit this year is 15.6% of the total. In 2011 the highest percentage was 14.4% (Mark Sanchez! OUCH!) even though the difference in cap salary between the two is $12M. I hope my point is clear. Don't just look at the number and say "that's too much". Look at the number in the context of the salary cap the number is in then decide its value. Getting MT locked up for 4 to 5 years will be worth every penny spent. SFIAH AsylumGuido and K Major like this.
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.

07-27-2019, 11:27 AM	#10
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,574	Re: And so it begins... Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL This same argument is trotted out each and every time a contract comes up for an elite player asking for market value. I finally figured out this thought comes from the combination of the fact that it's never happened before as the market keeps growing, and that many simply do not pay attention to the salary cap. In the 9 years since the last CBA was agreed to the salary cap has grown nearly 60% from $120 million to a current $188 million. CBA rules dictate that both a certain percentage of revenues for the NFL be paid to the players via the cap, and that a certain percentage of the cap (89% average over a 4 year period) has to be spent on the players for each team. Also notice that the number of players has not changed over that period. Each team still carries a 53 man squad. So the consequence is that salaries are going to go up. And keep going up. So just because no receiver has had a $20 million salary before doesn't mean that a $20 million salary for a receiver in 2019 is out of line. It's the same reason we have $35 million QBs, which never happened before, or $20+ million defensive ends, which never happened before, or $14 million running backs, which never happened before. The money has to be spent. I put it into the form of a question: MT has done in the last 3 years what no receiver, not Jerry Rice, not Randy Moss, not OBJ, not Jones, not Antonio Brown, not Calvin Johnson, not anyone ever has done in the first 3 years of their receiving career. So exactly why is a $20 million salary for a receiver, which of course has never happened yet, not be worth it? I think we're going to have to stop looking at salaries in terms of dollars and looking at them as salary cap percentages. Just a quick example. In 2011 the top receiver salary cap hit was Larry Fitzgerald with a $16.25M cap hit. With a $120M cap that represents a 13.5% total of the cap that year. A $20M cap hit, which BTW Thomas would not create in 2019 even if his overall salary is in the $20M range, represents a 10.6% total of the cap. It's the same in the QB market too. Stafford's $29.5M cap hit this year is 15.6% of the total. In 2011 the highest percentage was 14.4% (Mark Sanchez! OUCH!) even though the difference in cap salary between the two is $12M. I hope my point is clear. Don't just look at the number and say "that's too much". Look at the number in the context of the salary cap the number is in then decide its value. Getting MT locked up for 4 to 5 years will be worth every penny spent. SFIAH Very well put, SFIAH! The very point I have tried to get across for years. Ever since the salary cap came into existence fans have been having an issue understanding this very simple concept. The same fans blowing a gasket over new salary levels in the NFL would have been having a baby over having to pay today's price (you know what it is) for gas thirty years ago ($1.00 per gallon). SaintFanInATLHELL likes this.

LinkBacks (?) LinkBack to this Thread: https://blackandgold.com/saints/94293-so-begins.html
Posted By	For	Type	Date	Hits
And so it begins...	This thread	Refback	07-25-2019 10:28 AM	4