Re: Brees is done
 

Most of you have probably noticed how often I mention NFL Radio on XM and especially the program Moving the Chains. MtC is hosted by Pat Kirwan, former GM and longtime coach, and Jim Miller, longtime QB and coach. Their radio show is their full-time time job. Unlike almost every other talking head, they spend all of their time watching video and taking copious notes for their daily show. They don't have main gigs such as TV analysts or journalists. This is what they do and love. They interview head coaches regularly and accept a great deal of calls from average fans like us. I have learned more about the NFL over the past ten or more years that I have listened to these guys than from every other source combined over my entire 62 years. They commonly debunk so many misconceptions brought up by the average caller.

One of the most common misconceptions that they address is the supposed statistical correlation of number (or percentage of carries) to the winning of games. They repeatedly point out that the casual fan sees this correlation as the frequency of the running play begets the percentage of wins, yet it is actually quite the opposite. Success in the other facets of the game allows a team to run the ball more often. Blindly running the ball repeatedly into a defense that has the personnel, and scheme, to shut down the run will not lead to success. What it will lead to are repeated three and outs. They explain that this is why teams "abandon the run" at times.

If running the ball 35 times a game or 50% of the plays truly led to winning games then every team would do this every game. But the fact is that this will not and does not work. If the run simply isn't there continuing to attempt to run will not lead to success. Quite the opposite, it will ensure failure.

Honestly, if you have never listened to this show it is well worth the cost of an XM/Sirius subscription. If you like your X's and O's, your one gaps and two gaps, 4-3's and man overs, your 12, 22, and 11 personnel groupings, then you would love it!

Also, check out Pat Kirwan's book, Take Your Eye Off the Ball: How to Watch Football by Knowing Where to Look.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....1ObJ6UtyzL.jpg

Re: Brees is done
 

I listen ,they are not the talking heads. Facts mostly. Love Sirius since day one . I would say more but I would be bragging . Ok I have stock in Sirius from day one, it took awhile , ups and downs but it’s solid .


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Re: Brees is done
 

3-4 seconds is plenty of time to get the ball out, and again, when you see your line getting whooped you should probably adjust things to make sure that you're getting it out in that amount of time. or you know, you could just run the ball and give your o-line a break. you don't have to be a mobile quarterback to step out of the pocket to throw. that's just silly. some of drew's biggest moments are when he's gotten out of the pocket. if he all of a sudden can't move enough to do that then we have bigger problems than losing to atlanta, but i think, like you have done with all of your points, you're embellishing.

they ran the ball 11 times. only 9 times with their actual running backs. atlanta threw in some disguises but they were not stacking the box on every play. they were dropping into zone coverage for most of the game that's why the pass wasn't working. if one were to believe that the falcons just made it impossible for the saints to run, but at the same time also shut down the passing game, then the only conclusion you can draw is that atlanta is a totally dominant team over the saints. or, you could consider that when we run a balanced attack, like we did with our backup QB against much tougher defenses, we had better outcomes.

i'm not abandoning my point that i think sean and drew called/played a terrible game that was way too pass heavy and cost us a shot at the win, and yes i think part of it was that they thought coming into the game atlanta's secondary had their best CB out and generally haven't been good, so it was a great opportunity for brees to have a massive game akin to those of the 5k yard seasons. and it's not worth arguing over because neither of us have insight into what the gameplan was. i'm willing to admit that. but i present what i type here as opinion. you present your opinion as fact. have fun with that.

Re: Brees is done
 

Cool! Then you have heard them talk about this very topic on multiple occasions, right? This topic comes up several times year and they give the exact same take.

Re: Brees is done
 

Atlanta clearly saw that our offensive line had some major issues and they took advantage of those issues. Three to four seconds is not enough time to get the ball out, especially with rush in your face. Did you watch the video of all of those sacks. In only one of those did he have time to actually set his feet. He was being hit before he could even come out of his drop.

Re: Brees is done
 

AG love Pat he’s one of the most educated football gods. He talks sense and his guest talk sense. No jabber I wish all BnG bro’s had the chance to Pipe in. Gil brant can’t get enough of his knowledge


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Re: Brees is done
 

How about "Jumpshot", the Saints fan that calls in all the time? LOL

Re: Brees is done
 

And the backbones of America the truckers that call in they know football


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Re: Brees is done
 

And JB


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Re: Brees is done
 

How is trying to force dumb throws to your best players when a win is mathematically impossible asinine? What does that achieve other than injury or loosing the respect of your team mates? Even if they score the clock runs out.
There is a difference between competitiveness and ego. Payton and Brees showed the latter.

Re: Brees is done
 

Where are you getting this losing the respect of your teammates crap? If any player was ready to quit regardless of the score then they don't deserve to be on the roster. I would expect that every player respected the fact that Payton and Brees refused to quit. And as I pointed out earlier a fact to which you ignored, two of the playoff seeding tiebreakers are total points scored and total number of touchdowns scored. Every scoring opportunity is important.

Re: Brees is done
 

Brady says he can play till 46+. I'm not going to give up Drew.

Re: Brees is done
 

Re: Brees is done
 

Love the show and been listening for what seems like a decade, Best duo for me was Pat & Tim Ryan. Was like football Mass.

Re: Brees is done
 

"very alpha"..? Where does that factor in to the Atlanta game or a Drew Brees discussion? Is ad hominem now part of a new snap location between shotgun and under center?

You may understand the sport but you do not know the game and your elaborate rationalizations speak to that fact.

- They didnt abandon the run, they couldn't run. no blocking = no run.

- "you could just run the ball and give your o-line a break", what..?? This statement tells me you know nothing about the line because pass blocking is much more difficult than run blocking for reasons you are unable to comprehend.

Re: Brees is done
 

I'm going to jump in the middle of your discussion, for a moment.

They "couldn't" run? Bull. They had 11 carries for 52 yards. They DIDN'T run. I made a comment somewhere earlier in this thread that they abandoned the run before the game started.

Just because a team is getting pressure on the quarterback does not mean you can't run. It's all about figuring out where the pressure is coming from and designing runs that take advantage of the gaps that are created by an over aggressive defense. But the Saints, despite having some good runs in the VERY few attempts they had, never gave the ground game a chance to get going, to take the pressure off of Drew. That is basic football. When you are struggling to pass block, you do something, or at least TRY to do something to back the defense off.

And then, suddenly, after snoozing through the first half, the Saints found themselves in a big hole, and the run game was, of course, abandoned entirely with no hope of returning.

You attacked this poster for saying they should have run the ball to give the line a break, and your basis for this is that it is harder to pass block than to run block, and presumed that this was something he could not comprehend. Aside from the fact that you come off as an enormous jerk for making that assumption, you just made his point for him. Because OF COURSE it is harder to pass block than to run block. That's why you run to try to take the pressure of your line and your QB, and see if you can get the defense back off a little.

Did you even think about that? Did you try to put two and two together on that point he was making before you put your foot in your mouth? Good grief, man.

Re: Brees is done
 

one bad game
everything went wrong
o-line collapse
Drew holding the ball too long
no separation
no supporting cast for Thomas
no run game

stop with this Drew is washed up nonsense

his drive alone will right the ship

Re: Brees is done
 

I'll say it one more time...

The entire game was a COACHING FAIL

Hopefully Sean doesn't get engaged to anyone else before Sunday

XLIV CHAMPS

Re: Brees is done
 

Good point. The poster also seems kind of new. And probably doesn't know that you can't argue with Guido. Its impossible. He'll never see anyones side of things if he doesn't originally agree with the point. Lol. I don't even try anymore.

But I sure do enjoy watching everyone else try.

And I do know that you were talking about Oak here. But he's usually more open minded.

Yay!!! Forum fights!!!!

Re: Brees is done
 

It's because I'm always right.

But, back to the discussion. The false premise that some of you are making is that the Saints "abandoned the run". That simply isn't true. They actually appeared to have called several running plays out of which Brees appeared to have audibled to the secondary pass call. Once again, as an offense you call plays depending upon what the defense shows. It makes no sense to try to run the ball on a 2nd and long if the defense is set to stop the run. A smart QB will "kill" the initial call and switch to the secondary pass play. Yes, ideally you would want to run the ball because less bad things can happen as the old saying goes. Yet the defense and circumstances during the flow also dictates when a run is the call. But, let's look at every running play and when they occurred.

1st possession:
1 10 NOR 25 Latavius Murray right guard for 1 yard (tackle by Takkarist McKinley)
2 9 NOR 26 Alvin Kamara left end for 8 yards (tackle by Deion Jones)
3 1 NOR 34 Latavius Murray right tackle for 6 yards (tackle by Deion Jones)
1 5 ATL 5 Latavius Murray right tackle for no gain (tackle by Kemal Ishmael)

The drive stalled after Murray's zero gain and the first sack.

2nd possession:
Drop by Tre'Quan and false start on Warford killed drive.

3rd possession:
2 1 NOR 19 Latavius Murray left tackle for 3 yards (tackle by Vic Beasley)
2 10 NOR 36 Alvin Kamara right guard for 6 yards (tackle by Tyeler Davison)

On 3rd and 4 Brees gets sacked again to kill the drive.

The Saints then got the ball back with 1:31 left on the clock in the first half and ran all pass plays which would be expected to save clock and reach field goal range.

Second half now.

1st possession:
2 6 NOR 29 Taysom Hill right end for 11 yards (tackle by Ricardo Allen and Damontae Kazee)
1 10 NOR 40 Alvin Kamara right tackle for 4 yards (tackle by Takkarist McKinley)

Stalled after a drop by Ginn.

2nd possession down 13-6:
1 10 ATL 38 Latavius Murray right guard for 2 yards (tackle by Foyesade Oluokun)

Another drop by Ginn.
2 2 ATL 15 Ted Ginn left end for 5 yards (tackle by Ricardo Allen)

At this point with 6:09 left in the 3rd period the Saints settled for a FG, yet they still had not "abandoned the run".

3rd possession now down 20-9:
1 10 NOR 46 Alvin Kamara left guard for 6 yards (tackle by Vic Beasley) <-- run again on 1st down in the 4th quarter

The next play was a completed 12 yard pass to Kamara, but Armstead held and it was 2nd and long. Cook drops the pass next play. forced to punt.

4th possession down 23-9 now:
Two sacks on Brees and another incompletion to Cook.

5th possession down 26-9 now:
You can now say they abandoned the run if you wish with 4:05 left in the game.

The run was a part of the game into the 4th quarter. Down and distance and the defense indicated a pass was the logical play in most instances, but dropped balls, sacks and penalties in the limited number of possessions gave the Saints little chance to even attempt to run after that point.

Looking back you have to notice that two of those most successful running plays were in fact trick plays to our Swiss army knife and stone hands Ginn.

Re: Brees is done
 

Quinn told Payton he was tanking at the engagement party. Payton was drunk Quinn weren’t there


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Re: Brees is done
 

First off, your entire position is flawed in that you presume to know what play was called before an audible was made. None of us know what those plays would have been.

But considering the Saints inability to pass protect, there should have been an emphasis on running the ball, regardless of whatever Drew thought he saw. You just can't continue to be so predictable when you are already not pass protecting well.

And your attempt at showing down and distance dictating the lack of runs was just wrong. Again, they ran ELEVEN freaking times, Guido. We all know they got behind the chains with sacks. That's why you run on first down. That's why you call plays to maybe roll Drew out of the pocket and set up some screens. There are lots of innovative things a coach can do to, again, at least TRY to offset the pressure. Those things were NOT attempted. Certainly not to a degree that registers as being relevant, at the very least.

You pointed out instances were there was a run for a minimal or no gain, as if to say "aha! so much for your run the ball theory!". I'll repeat... 11 runs. Kamara had 4 carries for 24 yards. Why did he only have 4 carries? You confoundingly stated that the run was a part of the game until the 4th quarter. It wasn't 26-9 in the first half. 11 carries, Guido. Why did they keep going back to what WASN'T working? They abandoned the run... Period. It doesn't matter if you are willing to accept that. The facts speaks for themselves, very loudly.

Re: Brees is done
 

All of his statements when he knows he is wrong are the equivalent of a 5 year old saying “I know you are but what am I” when another kid says something they don’t have a comeback for. Those posts of his are a perfect example.

Re: Brees is done
 

The Narcissism is real here lol

"It's because I'm always right" :rolleyes:

Re: Brees is done
 

They did run on first down. FIVE TIMES in the first seven possessions for gains of 1, 0, 4, 2 and finally 6 in the 4th quarter. They ran as often as not on those first seven possessions before going down 20-9. The run would have been able to remain more a part of the game if Ginn and Cook hadn't dropped four balls between them in those first seven possessions and if Armstead hadn't false started. 26 of the pass plays came either in the last 1:31 of the first half when the run really wasn't an option or in the 4th quarter after going down by two scores.

What wasn't working was the run. And then the opportunity was past. People would have been *****ing about them running the ball on 2nd and 8 for two yard gains.

Re: Brees is done
 

Oh, and it is most commonly a pass or run combination that is sent into the QB. If the play is "killed" and the result is a pass it is usually a run that had been "killed". That is common knowledge. I've heard that mentioned on multiple occasions on Moving the Chains, as well, when callers ask what is happening when the QB "kills" a play.

If a straight out pass is called there are usually variations that can be run based upon defensive alignment that do not require "killing" of the play.

Re: Brees is done
 

The full play by play log can be found here.

Tell me which plays they should have used a running play and why. Don't forget, running on every single first down is asking for failure especially when it hasn't worked very successfully to that point and the defense is expecting it. Mixing in passes should open up the running game ... IF the receiver doesn't keep dropping the ball. When that happens you are basically forced to throw it again.

Re: Brees is done
 

They are still teeing up tomorrow at 12 noon in Tampa men.

Let's geaux.

Re: Brees is done
 

The saints are 0-42 when running the ball less than 15 times in a game... Enough said..

Re: Brees is done
 

I can't wait until we kill the Bucs. That way we have something else to talk about other than that awful performance last weekend.

Re: Brees is done
 

This is true, but there is no direct correlation that running the ball less than 15 times was the reason for the loss. Did they lose those 42 games because they didn't run the ball more than 15 times or did they run the ball less than 15 times because they couldn't sustain drives and thus lost the game?

That's exactly the false narrative that I was talking about earlier. According to Pat Kirwan and Jim Miller on NFL Radio, as I pointed previously, it isn't a lack of attempts to run the ball that leads to a loss, it is the inability to run the ball successfully and to extend drives that limits the chances to run the ball.

The Saints have lost 395 games when they DID run the ball 15 or more times. Let that sink in.

Re: Brees is done
 

Follow the link above to the play by play log and tell me on exactly which downs where the pass was the choice, either initially called or switched to at the line, that running the ball was absolutely the best option.

Re: Brees is done
 

That is a stat, nothing more or less with zero causation. I will assume that you are assuming two things from that stat..
1. The Saints chose to run less than 15 times in a game?
2. Their choice is causing them to lose?

Here is another stat or two and how I interpret them:
1. Drew Brees is presently tied for second with Tom Brade in all time 4th Qtr come backs at 35 (Payton Manning has 43 and Johnny Unitas has 34).
2. Drew Brees is second only to Payton Manning for game winning drives @49 (Payton Manning is 54 and Dan Marino is 47)

Seems our crappy defenses under Spagnuolo, Ryan, and a few Allen years left the man playing catch up because our wet paper towel Defense couldn't stop a drip. What Fing team runs when behind? Okay, the Jets...

What no one has been able to answer yet is why in the hell didnt we abandon the run against the Cardinals??? Anyone please explain why... take a shot at it with your logic.

Re: Brees is done
 

The 0-42 stat doesn't provide causation, but it does provide correlation between loses.

Winning teams can do 2 things in the NFL, run the ball and play defense. If you can't do those things your success will be short lived.

I know you all understand that and are arguing that our running game was ineffective so they had to move away from it, however as AG drove into the play by play, you could see our running game was effective but it was abandoned. You don't need 6 yards a carry, 3 yards on first or second down is better than a incomplete pass or sack. We could have been setting up 3rd and short with an aggressive run game, but instead we were behind th chains because we chose to pass and create negative plays (incomplete/sacks/penalties).

If the saints right the ship, it'll be due to establishing the run again.

Re: Brees is done
 

I said at the tail end of the Bridgewater-starting era that it’s possible we don’t win all of those games with Brees at QB. I didn’t mean it as an insult to Brees in any way, but that unthinkable loss to the Falcons bears that out. We get away from the basics and fundamentals sometimes and the play calling just gets questionable at times with Brees. It’s not Drew’s fault, it’s just symptomatic of the “We have Brees so we’ll be fine” mindset.

Re: Brees is done
 

Brother, absolutely no one that I have seen has argued against the run game being vital. But it wasn't there against Atlanta it was never effective and no one was getting 3 YPC and the Penalties were killing the run game as well often leaving us with more than 10 yards for a 1st down. Do do remember the penalties and have factored them into your 3YPC run game?

6 offensive penalties on 10 drives.... You cant establish a run game on that Sir...

Murry ave 2.6 YPC ill bet you a months salary that if Payton would have run Kamara in place of Murry people would be b1tching about over use...

People are arguing that our QB was killing run plays just to pad stats and that's asinine to say the least. We have some smart members that say stupid sh1t.

Atlanta came in to kill our run game, they were successful because our O-Line was flat. Our passing game was unsuccessful because we dont have more than one receiver and she same line was flat.

Re: Brees is done
 

^^^^^^

All of this. But, Oak, it's like talking to a blank wall. They don't understand football as much as they think. Logic means nothing to them. Might as well give up. Forty-two times in the 52 year history of the Saints they did not carry the ball at least 15 times. Outlier, forced by flow of game and defensive scheme.

:rolleyes:

Re: Brees is done
 

Age is definitely catching up with Brees - the 15-20 yard comebacks are just floating on him. Lucky he wasnt picked.

Re: Brees is done
 

Time to dump him and get someone better.

Re: Brees is done
 

He did alright. Great team win. Defense definitely made it easier on him.