Re: M Jenkins and Michael Thomas killed the Saints
 

You make a couple of fatal errors. One, that you believe it's cool for grown men to drastically shift in their ability to tolerate the same comment from just 3 years or so ago, to now. You make it sound like he said something in 1989, and now, 31 years later, he says it again. I mean, that's just absurd.

Second, sports aren't supposed to even be about politics. You're sitting there telling him he should learn to play politics, but these guys played the worst "game" of politics imaginable when they started protesting during the anthem. No one prompted them. Drew was asked a question. And he gave a VERY politically correct answer. He went out of his way to not disrespect their cause. He just wanted the method to move away from it's current form. And if they didn't have a problem with him saying that before, why now? When did being a "leader of men" start to involve mind reading capabilities? His job was to lead a football team. How much time do you think they spend talking about each other's feelings?

Re: M Jenkins and Michael Thomas killed the Saints
 

I don’t know how it’s a fatal error when it is what it is evidenced by the reaction he got. Three years later these men are more emboldened in their stances and are unafraid to be heard. Attitudes changed. There’s no other way to put it out. Information is shared much faster in from 2017 to 2020 than from 1986 to 1989.

Also, if sports aren’t about politics then they never should have started showing the anthem and making a big spectacle out of it for every single game. That was a political decision.

He said what he said. He got the reaction he got. If he hadn’t of said what he said it wouldn’t be an issue. His response was very politically correct, but this is the age of sound bites and headlines. This **** isn’t anything new. I’m sure he’s had PR and media training.

Re: M Jenkins and Michael Thomas killed the Saints
 

One standard, apply it to both sides of that commentary. Did free speech, on either side encourage violence? The answer is no, from everything I’ve read. Therefore, it’s my belief neither Thomas or Jenkins didn’t need to address that behind doors, I wouldn’t have. That is not a “straw man”..., in any way, shape or form. The entire discussion revolves around the commentary from Jenkins and Thomas, it’s 100% proper to ask the very simple question:

“Did either side encourage violence through their social media platforms?”

Spare me the drivel about “straw- man” arguments, lol. Everything you’ve ever stated is some form of formal/informal fallacious arguments..., same for me. It’s just opinions, they’re neither right..., nor wrong.

Re: M Jenkins and Michael Thomas killed the Saints
 

It is what it is? He's wrong for not "reading" them, based solely on the fact that their reaction was different this time? Do you not see the obvious flaw in that logic? You are asking him to look into the future to know that they would react differently, so as to say something else that would not have prompted the reaction he got.

Information being shared faster has nothing to do with attitudes changing. There is no new information. It's the same tired BS, about racial injustice, while these guys are making millions to play a game, and black neighborhoods are shooting each other up. No one can predict how irrational people can suddenly become.

Your quip about the anthem being political is perhaps the most egregiously pathetic thing I have read on this site. The anthem is about AMERICA. It's not about whites, or blacks, or Hispanics, or Democrats, Republicans, males, females, rich people or poor people. It's the National Anthem. What people choose to fabricate about the song is their problem. Every country has a national anthem, and they all play it before they play a game in their native land. It's standard.

You appeared to agree with me at the end of your post, saying "his response was very politically correct", but confusingly tried to explain away how he was still wrong, because it's the age of sound bites. If his answer was politically correct (it was), then why should he have been concerned about the sound bites and headlines? Of course he knows about those things. Why do you think his answer WAS so politically correct? You're going in circles, man.

Re: M Jenkins and Michael Thomas killed the Saints
 

He didn’t have to look into the future. He could look at the right now. Who couldn’t see that tensions were high and the players were all more vocal? Players had been explaining how it isn’t about the flag for 3 years and he led his statement off focusing on said flag and tried to clean it up afterwards. Politically correct? Sure. Out of touch with his teammates? Definitely.

As far as the politics behind the spectacle:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn...rnd/index.html

Re: M Jenkins and Michael Thomas killed the Saints
 

You're just repeating yourself. I'm not making any fallacious arguments. I never said they advocated for violence, and neither did anyone else. I've said that at least three times now. You seem to be confused in thinking that the argument is about making those two players stop the death threats. That's not the point. The point is that if they hadn't overreacted and made it such a public display, no one would have cared. It's the mob mentality. I'm sure you've heard of it. One prominent person decides to take issue with something, and a bunch of people follow. For some, they resort to violence, or threats of violence. I agree that neither of those players can be held DIRECTLY responsible for any specific threats. But by showing a united front, publicly, while handling your disagreements behind closed doors, goes a long way toward diffusing the mob. Again, that's how that mob mentality works. They tend to follow the lead of those they look up to. Sometimes taking it to the extremes.

Re: M Jenkins and Michael Thomas killed the Saints
 

We're supposed to be playing football, not politics. This is why you keep this stuff away from the game.

Re: M Jenkins and Michael Thomas killed the Saints
 

Them saying that it "wasn't about the flag" was a lie, on two counts. The first being that, as I stated before, no one is arguing that the flag, itself, as in the piece of cloth, is what they were protesting. We all, including Drew, understood that the argument coming from the players is that they supposedly saw the flag as some hypocritical symbol of freedom, based on their perception of racial injustice. Which brings me to the second part. Yes, in that regard, it WAS about the flag. This was coming straight from the players mouths. And it was further evidenced by the fact that at NO OTHER point did they protest. Only during the Anthem.

And so what Drew, and many people across the country, including myself have said, is that if you have some kind of grievance, take it elsewhere to the people who you think can solve your perceived problem. The flag is about America. If you believe there is racial inequality, and you REALLY want unity, then you don't accomplish that goal by dividing people during a time when we are celebrating our collective freedom. That is divisive.

Players were vocal about many things, but Drew wasn't addressing any of those issues. He was only stating his opinion on the method. Saying "it's not about the flag" is a non sequitur. It's that you protest during the anthem and in front of the flag. So either they are lying when they say it's not about the flag (they are), or if it's not about the flag, then you don't protest at that exact time, and no other time. Because no one believes you when you do that.

And if they can't respect another's opinion enough to at least address him man to man, before blowing up on twitter, then their opinions don't deserve respect. Period.

And you've got to be kidding with the CNN link. The anthem is about patriotism. Not politics. If you aren't patriotic, fine. Go sit on the bench. People won't respect you for it, but it's a free country, after all. However, protesting during that time, is another thing altogether.

Re: M Jenkins and Michael Thomas killed the Saints
 

“Overreacted” is subjective. It’s how you view it, no doubt others. I don’t discount your view on things, I just see there are other views, including mine, that it was passionate and emotional commentary. It very well could also be seen as a “backstabbing” comment from teammates of all colors inside the locker-room. Regardless of what was said three years previously, the situation in that locker-room and the NFL in general is different now, than it was before. I evaluate Thomas’ and Jenkins’ comments in the appropriate time frame, which is right now.

Mobs are wrong, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks out of the year, all mobs, along with all socially motivated “boycotts”. I’ll never buy into that mentality, either side. And that includes the “I’m boycotting the NFL bc..., race reasons” mob. I’m just not of that mindset, but to each their own.

Re: M Jenkins and Michael Thomas killed the Saints
 

Patriotism is political.

Re: M Jenkins and Michael Thomas killed the Saints
 

It's fine to play the "I just listen and don't rock the boat" position, if that's your thing, man. I happen to believe it's passive and unproductive. People are out there spreading absolute lies that are poisoning people's minds, and leading to the kind of idiotic reaction that Brees got. What he said was perfectly valid. Because it's obvious most people don't care for the time and place that the protests were happening. He wasn't commenting on their cause, itself. So if he can't have that opinion, why do the players deserve a pass for theirs, and acting like children?

I believe it is the responsibility of every adult to stand up for what he believes is right. I also believe it is the responsibility of every adult to know what they believe and why. The players cannot defend, with any logic, the kind of people they are propping up as victims in their petty social justice war. And short of being able to do so, they don't have the right to just get what they want from everyone else. It matters not whether they feel differently now than they did three years ago. Nothing has changed in three years to support their cause. A black man gets shot by the police, and it doesn't matter that there is video evidence of the suspect resisting arrest. It doesn't matter that more white people are killed by police, despite the black population accounting for the majority of crime in this country. These are little things called facts and reason. So I supported Drew's initial stance. I do not support his decision to crawfish.

Re: M Jenkins and Michael Thomas killed the Saints
 

And you've just showed this entire forum that you are anti-American. That is literally the only possible way to arrive at the conclusion you just made.

Re: M Jenkins and Michael Thomas killed the Saints
 

You should be able to make a statement contrary to the beliefs of your teammates. I don't think anyone really believes that any such unwritten "rule" should apply - except for when it comes to BLM and/or BLM driven issues.

All the more reason to speak out against BLM. If people dont start standing up to that corrupt movement things will only get worse.

This idea that criticism of BLM is taboo needs to be called out at every opportunity.

Yeah, one will probably get called a racist, a white supremacist and/or a nazi. So what? Those magic words only have meaning if we let them.

Re: M Jenkins and Michael Thomas killed the Saints
 

I know that team chemistry is real but as I mentioned we wouldn’t be talking about something that happened over the summer if the team was playing better. All this could have and should have been handled better. If they let the media destroy their chemistry then shame on the leaders of this team.

A strong team can overcome disagreements and disappointment. Maybe this team wasn’t a strong as we thought but on field performance as it relates to the coaches and players is what’s hindering this team.

Stats tell the reason why we are 1-2. Defense can’t get off the field and the offense can’t stay on. Payton refuses to stick to the run. These are our main issues all this other stuff is speculation.

The thing that made us dangerous on offense was the intermediate routes in the middle of the field. We no longer have that in our arsenal with Brees. Or WRs have zero YAC. Only AK has YAC because of where he is catching the ball on screens and option route at the line of scrimmage.

Re: M Jenkins and Michael Thomas killed the Saints
 

Lol. Okay.

Re: M Jenkins and Michael Thomas killed the Saints
 

No, it's not okay. But, "it is what it is" right, bro?

Re: M Jenkins and Michael Thomas killed the Saints
 

Everything dealing with Black people isn’t BLM.

Re: M Jenkins and Michael Thomas killed the Saints
 

Lol. I guess so.

Re: M Jenkins and Michael Thomas killed the Saints
 

Nothing wrong with your choices and/or actions. Nothing wrong with mine, or others either, so long as no laws are being broken. I’ve put boots on in combat, proudly retired from the Army, miss it, a lot, lol..., but I really don’t need anyone intimating what my “responsibilities” are, or “should” be. My guess is D.Brees, M.Thomas and M.Jenkins feel the same..., but I won’t speak for them. They’ve done it themselves already.

Re: M Jenkins and Michael Thomas killed the Saints
 

You're never going to change his mind. I've only blocked 2 people on this site in almost 20 years. And he is one of them.

He has an entitled victim mentality and believes that a black person who commits a crime is somehow white people's fault. He is racist as hell.

You're talking to a guy that thinks that he should get reparations from white people.

That's where I drew the line and blocked him.

Too bad too. Good guy to talk football with. But with all the politics now in sports, it was just too much for me.

Re: M Jenkins and Michael Thomas killed the Saints
 

I didn’t know anybody blocked me! That’s what’s up. 😁

Re: M Jenkins and Michael Thomas killed the Saints
 

Of course not.

But the issues relevant to the conversation we are having in this thread are absolutely being driven by the BLM movement.

Re: M Jenkins and Michael Thomas killed the Saints
 

The movement became an organization that most Black people are not affiliated with. My timeline is full of Black people giving various reasons why they don’t support BLM. You’ll find most believe it to be more of a LGBTQ Rights organization than a Black focused one. It’s replaced the NAACP as the go to reference for some reason.

Re: M Jenkins and Michael Thomas killed the Saints
 

Actions have consequences, whether those actions are breaking the law or not. The false narrative being driven in this country is driving a mob that IS breaking laws. And before you say it; I'm not assigning direct blame to any one individual for acts of violence by others. This is about taking a stand against this culture. It's very much a culture war, right now, as well as a spiritual war. We won't get anywhere saying "well, free speech is dead, racial wars are being ignited on false premises, and cops are being defunded... But as long as no one is getting hurt, it's just opinions. Nothing more."

I'm sorry, man. But I can't get on board with that. And I didn't "intimate" what your responsibilities should be. I'm giving my personal opinion on what I think is our collective responsibility. If you think it's cool for people to spout things without facts, and have a raging fit over someone else's opinion, then I'm not sure what you're even about.

By the way, I don't know if Jenkins and Thomas feel the same as you about not needing anyone to tell them what their responsibilities should be, but I CAN guarantee that if they do, they don't apply that standard to others. Their reaction to Drew Brees being exhibit A. Not just telling him what his responsibilities are, but essentially telling him how to think.

Re: M Jenkins and Michael Thomas killed the Saints
 

I hear ya, man. I've seen his posts about wanting reparations in the past. Sometimes I engage, and sometimes I ignore. Just depends on my mood, I guess.

Re: M Jenkins and Michael Thomas killed the Saints
 

I don’t want em anymore.

Re: M Jenkins and Michael Thomas killed the Saints
 

That's good to hear.

Re: M Jenkins and Michael Thomas killed the Saints
 

I thought we were talking about a conversation between M.Thomas, M.Jenkins, and D.Brees and whether D.Brees lost the locker-room bc of that issue, or if he lost the locker-room bc of his play? Culture War Smultcher-War, who cares, it won’t change how I feel about things. Like I said before, you would be surprised to find out that I probably agree with you on many of the things you are stating. Only difference is I think there are valid arguments to be made against them also..., bc we are all different. The things that make up my beliefs are defined by everything that has happened to me in the past and what’s going on currently. I guarantee you that each person’s histories are different, and may very well be vastly different. Drew Brees, and the others involved, did what he/they felt needed to be done or said, based on their current team and peers, the current culture in that very specific locker room, among many other items. I can’t understand that dynamics bc I wasn’t there, I wasn’t a player in that locker-room, I am not a member of that culture in that organization. So, it’s not fair for me to say: “he shoulda done this”.

Virtue signaling has two faces, I’m a fan of neither.

Re: M Jenkins and Michael Thomas killed the Saints
 

I absolutely agree that BLM is not the rough equivalent of "all black people."

In fact, the people that I think BLM hurts the most are black people.

BLM had a huge headstart because of a name that no one can argue with. However, I think enough evidence is in that we can all look past the branding.

This is not really, IMO, about race.

We just have some very bad actors who are using existing racial issues because that is our nation's weakest spot.

They do not wish any of us well.

Re: M Jenkins and Michael Thomas killed the Saints
 

I feel honored! I was the other person he blocked. LOL!!!

Re: M Jenkins and Michael Thomas killed the Saints
 

We've already addressed the three original players in question, and the conversation moved onward to issues related to the subject matter involving said players. I assumed you were keeping up. It seemed you were. Now you're trying to push my points aside as being "not part of the conversation", I guess?

All that stuff you said about there being valid arguments to be made against my position, because "people are different", and your beliefs being made up of your experiences is really just a long way of not making a valid argument against my points. You keep saying you probably agree with me on most things, but you keep arguing with me, and yet not really addressing the problems I've raised with the players' stance; instead punting the conversation to "there are valid arguments to be made against it, and everyone is different".

You say you don't like virtue signaling. Neither do I. But your refusal to meet the issues I'm raising head on, and trying to show me that you are open minded, by not actually taking a position, is what I'd call virtue signaling. Everyone has a right to an opinion. Not everyone's opinion is right, however. There is no such thing as "my truth" and "your truth" and "their truth". There is only THE truth. The only way for any conversation to be productive is for all parties involved to actively search for that truth. It's not good enough just to say "well, I may disagree with them, but I'm sure they have a valid reason for what they believe", anymore than it is good enough to shout people down without hearing what they have to say.

I don't believe Drew thinks he did the "right" thing. I think he just wanted to save his butt from criticism rather than face the fire. But even if, for the sake of argument, he DID change is mind, that doesn't make him right, and I do not have to respect his opinion, and I have the right to say he was wrong. Reality does not back the narrative the players are pushing. Period. This is what I mean about everyone having a responsibility to know what they believe and why. Because, if you want your opinion to be respected, you better have the facts to back up what you say. The players don't. This thing you're doing about refusing to say that someone's opinion is wrong, simply because you don't know them, makes no sense to me. I don't have to know these people to know the narrative is false. We're not discussing their relationship choices, we're talking about this supposed "cause".

Re: M Jenkins and Michael Thomas killed the Saints
 

We agree on a lot of subjects...even some on this thread. I totally agree that Sports and politics don't belong together but the BLM movement gave us no option. I agree that Drew tried to be diplomatic but no one respected Drew's opinion if it didn't align with their predetermined notions. That is stubborn. See it my way or we'll turn All BLM supporters against you and your family.

Like you said I wish he had stuck to his guns and used it as motivation. It's no longer us against them...it's us against Drew. Drew Brees sat alone on the bench. Previously he was the unquestioned leader. It's a shame that non football agendas can make a team dysfunctional.

Re: M Jenkins and Michael Thomas killed the Saints
 

Yes, we did address the three and we concluded that none of them directly threatened or encouraged threatening actions to the others. As far as social justice warrior’ing a cultural war, lol, it reminds of that scene in Blazing Saddles.

“We must do something about this immediately, immediately, immediately..., Harrumph, harrumph, harrumph..., give the Guvnah a harrumph.”

lol. Go on with your bad self, enjoy, have fun.

Re: M Jenkins and Michael Thomas killed the Saints
 

Bahahahahaha. That's an opinion. We all have one and most stink. Those of you who don't car about football, why don't you just stay away? You lurk around waiting for something political to be posted before you come out from under your rock. Then all you do is complain about football now being political. The hypocrisy is real. All of you just want to argue.


Rez.....you're one of the most respectable people on this board. If being pro-American means being short-sighted and judgmental.....call me anti-American too, and piss on ya

Re: M Jenkins and Michael Thomas killed the Saints
 

It's time for me to start using that function. I just want to talk football.

Re: M Jenkins and Michael Thomas killed the Saints
 

Since they don't have football to watch they've just adopted a new sport ... beating a dead horse.

:deadhorse2::deadhorse:

Re: M Jenkins and Michael Thomas killed the Saints
 

Their goal is destruction as a form of retribution. Just stop watching, buying the merchandise, and going to games. It's the only real way to show you disapprove.

Re: M Jenkins and Michael Thomas killed the Saints
 

And I'll watch twice as much (pretty impossible), buy twice as much (been doing that), and will go to games as soon as we can. Ticket prices may even be better! Woohoo!

:bng:

:party:

Re: M Jenkins and Michael Thomas killed the Saints
 

I appreciate that my brotha. The respect is mutual.

Re: M Jenkins and Michael Thomas killed the Saints
 

I'll agree completely on Rez's character. Outside of this forum I have come to know him and appreciate what he has contributed to me as a friend and confidant. He also outkicked his coverage in marriage.

;)

Edit: Outkicked mine, as well.