PFF suggests Saints may have the best roster among playoff contenders

bobdog86 · 01-06-2021, 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Saint

Punch them in the throat...and get tossed like Jordan did against KC. You are making the mistake in thinking the Saints are/were the superior opponent and were/are capable of manhandling other playoff teams despite being handicapped by refs. I guarantee if the calls go against them again then they lose. That’s why there hasbeen only one undefeated team ever. NO TEAM EVER was capable of doing what you ask. The difference between winning and losing is too razor thin at this level.

Sorry, respect your view, but disagree. Putting the blame for a loss solely on the ref’s is a fools folly, not to mention it makes an otherwise knowledgeable person, look like a typical team homer. Big picture, usually many points of a game where a team shoots them in there own foot.

SaintGnome · 01-06-2021, 07:10 PM

We've been the most talented team the last 3 years, and we're even better this year, best depth of any team in the NFL. Problem is, a SB Champ needs some luck and we haven't had it since 09, we keep catching bad breaks.

Boston Saint · 01-06-2021, 07:26 PM

Originally Posted by bobdog86

Sorry, respect your view, but disagree. Putting the blame for a loss solely on the ref’s is a fools folly, not to mention it makes an otherwise knowledgeable person, look like a typical team homer. Big picture, usually many points of a game where a team shoots them in there own foot.

Respect bob, but I didn’t put blame solely on the refs. I pointed out the Minn Miracle was not on the refs. I’m saying it’s unrealistic to think the answer is simply to beat the other team badly enough that the refs can’t determine the outcome. Newsflash... the Saints are not that much better than Green Bay, KC, etc that they can simply decide to be ahead by two or three touchdowns at the end of the game and therefore take the refs out of it. Thinking you are that good is arrogance and leads to the same kind of flat play that cost the Philly game this year.

bobdog86 · 01-06-2021, 07:53 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Saint

Respect bob, but I didn’t put blame solely on the refs. I pointed out the Minn Miracle was not on the refs. I’m saying it’s unrealistic to think the answer is simply to beat the other team badly enough that the refs can’t determine the outcome. Newsflash... the Saints are not that much better than Green Bay, KC, etc that they can simply decide to be ahead by two or three touchdowns at the end of the game and therefore take the refs out of it. Thinking you are that good is arrogance and leads to the same kind of flat play that cost the Philly game this year.

I said nothing of the teams you mentioned, or any team for that matter. But when you under perform as we have on several instances, then you can’t be too surprised when bad things happen. It’s kinda like marrying a hooker, don’t be shocked if you come home and she’s in bed with your best friend.

gosaints1 · 01-06-2021, 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Saint

Respect bob, but I didn’t put blame solely on the refs. I pointed out the Minn Miracle was not on the refs. I’m saying it’s unrealistic to think the answer is simply to beat the other team badly enough that the refs can’t determine the outcome. Newsflash... the Saints are not that much better than Green Bay, KC, etc that they can simply decide to be ahead by two or three touchdowns at the end of the game and therefore take the refs out of it. Thinking you are that good is arrogance and leads to the same kind of flat play that cost the Philly game this year.

Newsflash - Both the Chiefs AND the Packers have already beaten the Saints this season, therefore unbiased thinking will consider both of those teams as superior. At least on that one day, lol, who knows what the future may bring. But, Luck is an excuse, not a reason. You don’t have to be ahead of an opposing team by two or three touchdowns to have the game in hand. Control the clock, sustain drives, don’t turn the ball over, etc... and you can easily eliminate the ref’s having an determinate affect on a game. Allowing the game to rely on one single play isn’t indicative of bad/good luck. It’s poor play, it’s poor game management both on and off the field, it’s poor playcalling both on/off the field, etc... Bottom line, it wasn’t bad luck that stopped Anzalone from falling on the ball in the end-zone. It was poor execution resulting in a five point swing, not in our favor. Hard to win tough games when you’re “giving” points away.

Boston Saint · 01-06-2021, 08:33 PM

Anyway, we are on the verge of going in circles here. I agree that there are plays here and there throughout a game that can determine if a team wins or loses. The Saints have to get as many of those plays correct as they can. But likewise you can make every play perfect and the refs. can still make/not make calls or make bad calls that cost you the game. (Did anyone see the phantom unnecessary roughness Call the lions got on The Cousins sack this past weekend?).

The GB game from earlier this year is an example. Saints lost that game. Penalty difference was 8-2 in GB favor with 4-2 GB favor in penalties for first downs. Now, Saints could and should look at plays they didn’t make in that game. But to say that the refs didn’t have an impact on the result of that game that is outside of the player’s control is wrong and to simply say the answer is to “play better” won’t win a Super Bowl If they decide to ignore obvious holds against the Saints D line again and let one set of D backs to get away with things they aren’t letting the other team’s. Just like the players on the field, the refs on the field have a duty to do their job well. When they don’t, things get screwy.

gosaints1 · 01-06-2021, 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Saint

Anyway, we are on the verge of going in circles here. I agree that there are plays here and there throughout a game that can determine if a team wins or loses. The Saints have to get as many of those plays correct as they can. But likewise you can make every play perfect and the refs. can still make/not make calls or make bad calls that cost you the game. (Did anyone see the phantom unnecessary roughness Call the lions got on The Cousins sack this past weekend?).

The GB game from earlier this year is an example. Saints lost that game. Penalty difference was 8-2 in GB favor with 4-2 GB favor in penalties for first downs. Now, Saints could and should look at plays they didn’t make in that game. But to say that the refs didn’t have an impact on the result of that game that is outside of the player’s control is wrong and to simply say the answer is to “play better” won’t win a Super Bowl If they decide to ignore obvious holds against the Saints D line again and let one set of D backs to get away with things they aren’t letting the other team’s. Just like the players on the field, the refs on the field have a duty to do their job well. When they don’t, things get screwy.

I hear what you’re saying and agree, somewhat. Problem with your line of logic is that EVERY team’s fan base is using the exact same list of “reasons” we are, here, in this forum. But for some odd reason, we think our “getting screwed by the refs” is legit, in EVERY loss, lol. Not just the Rams/Saints championship game. Yes, there are missed calls, on both sides of the football. I just don’t see it as a reason for losing, I see it as an excuse that the losing side quite frequently uses.

It’s fairly obvious that I’m not a believer of the “ref’s are out to get us” mantra..., that being said, the missed DPI call in the Rams/Saints championship game was SO obvious and blatant, along with the ref watching it like a hawk, so badly missed that it makes a fella look side-eyed every now and then, lol.

Difference of perceptions here, nothing more, nothing less.

bobdog86 · 01-06-2021, 08:54 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Saint

Anyway, we are on the verge of going in circles here. I agree that there are plays here and there throughout a game that can determine if a team wins or loses. The Saints have to get as many of those plays correct as they can. But likewise you can make every play perfect and the refs. can still make/not make calls or make bad calls that cost you the game. (Did anyone see the phantom unnecessary roughness Call the lions got on The Cousins sack this past weekend?).

The GB game from earlier this year is an example. Saints lost that game. Penalty difference was 8-2 in GB favor with 4-2 GB favor in penalties for first downs. Now, Saints could and should look at plays they didn’t make in that game. But to say that the refs didn’t have an impact on the result of that game that is outside of the player’s control is wrong and to simply say the answer is to “play better” won’t win a Super Bowl If they decide to ignore obvious holds against the Saints D line again and let one set of D backs to get away with things they aren’t letting the other team’s. Just like the players on the field, the refs on the field have a duty to do their job well. When they don’t, things get screwy.

Looking at that.....Jenkins had 2 PI calls on one drive, a horse collar on another...at the time our defense literally stunk. We had an offside on 3rd and 7 that led to a fg. GB scored 23 points on drives with penalties. I expect that to be different if we play them again, and also moving forward. When the team plays better because we have the people in coverage, or correct scheme. {not because of the refs} but because we are better.

Boston Saint · 01-06-2021, 09:15 PM

Agreed to both. When I look at losses I try to evaluate what happened. That starts with comparing the team to the opponent. This season’s loses looked like this:

GB- Close game against a good team. Can’t say they outplayed the Saints. They got a few turnovers that were unforced, and they hit some long shots. The team stayed with it and kept it close, and I do think the refs had an impact with the lopsided calls as I remember the D line being held all night.

Raiders- Tough road game opening a new stadium on Monday night, so they were pumped. Carr passed all over and they scored a lot of points. BUT the penalty difference was large in the game (10-3 5-1). Again, this seems quite a bit on refs.

Philly - Completely unprepared in all facets of the game. Refs had no impact.

KC - Big game against a big team. Played them as well as they could with deprecated team. Again, missed several hold calls against the D line. But refs didn’t influence the outcome much.

Just my thought.

AsylumGuido · 01-07-2021, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by gosaints1

I hear what you’re saying and agree, somewhat. Problem with your line of logic is that EVERY team’s fan base is using the exact same list of “reasons” we are, here, in this forum. But for some odd reason, we think our “getting screwed by the refs” is legit, in EVERY loss, lol. Not just the Rams/Saints championship game. Yes, there are missed calls, on both sides of the football. I just don’t see it as a reason for losing, I see it as an excuse that the losing side quite frequently uses.

It’s fairly obvious that I’m not a believer of the “ref’s are out to get us” mantra..., that being said, the missed DPI call in the Rams/Saints championship game was SO obvious and blatant, along with the ref watching it like a hawk, so badly missed that it makes a fella look side-eyed every now and then, lol.

Difference of perceptions here, nothing more, nothing less.

I have visited forums for virtually every team in the league and I can assure you that the exact same "reasons" have been floated everywhere. The same can be said for callers on sports talk radio. Same thing. Just insert team name in the blank and it's the same story.

01-06-2021, 06:31 PM	#21
bobdog86 Site Donor Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,329	Re: PFF suggests Saints may have the best roster among playoff contenders Originally Posted by Boston Saint Punch them in the throat...and get tossed like Jordan did against KC. You are making the mistake in thinking the Saints are/were the superior opponent and were/are capable of manhandling other playoff teams despite being handicapped by refs. I guarantee if the calls go against them again then they lose. That’s why there hasbeen only one undefeated team ever. NO TEAM EVER was capable of doing what you ask. The difference between winning and losing is too razor thin at this level. Sorry, respect your view, but disagree. Putting the blame for a loss solely on the ref’s is a fools folly, not to mention it makes an otherwise knowledgeable person, look like a typical team homer. Big picture, usually many points of a game where a team shoots them in there own foot. gosaints1 likes this.

01-06-2021, 07:10 PM	#22
SaintGnome 500th Post Join Date: Jul 2017 Location: Bradenton,FL Posts: 642	Re: PFF suggests Saints may have the best roster among playoff contenders We've been the most talented team the last 3 years, and we're even better this year, best depth of any team in the NFL. Problem is, a SB Champ needs some luck and we haven't had it since 09, we keep catching bad breaks. Boston Saint likes this.

01-06-2021, 07:26 PM	#23
Boston Saint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2020 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 4,868	Re: PFF suggests Saints may have the best roster among playoff contenders Originally Posted by bobdog86 Sorry, respect your view, but disagree. Putting the blame for a loss solely on the ref’s is a fools folly, not to mention it makes an otherwise knowledgeable person, look like a typical team homer. Big picture, usually many points of a game where a team shoots them in there own foot. Respect bob, but I didn’t put blame solely on the refs. I pointed out the Minn Miracle was not on the refs. I’m saying it’s unrealistic to think the answer is simply to beat the other team badly enough that the refs can’t determine the outcome. Newsflash... the Saints are not that much better than Green Bay, KC, etc that they can simply decide to be ahead by two or three touchdowns at the end of the game and therefore take the refs out of it. Thinking you are that good is arrogance and leads to the same kind of flat play that cost the Philly game this year. Rugby Saint II likes this.
	You think you know, but you don’t know...and you never will! Coach Jim Mora

01-06-2021, 07:53 PM	#24
bobdog86 Site Donor Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,329	Re: PFF suggests Saints may have the best roster among playoff contenders Originally Posted by Boston Saint Respect bob, but I didn’t put blame solely on the refs. I pointed out the Minn Miracle was not on the refs. I’m saying it’s unrealistic to think the answer is simply to beat the other team badly enough that the refs can’t determine the outcome. Newsflash... the Saints are not that much better than Green Bay, KC, etc that they can simply decide to be ahead by two or three touchdowns at the end of the game and therefore take the refs out of it. Thinking you are that good is arrogance and leads to the same kind of flat play that cost the Philly game this year. I said nothing of the teams you mentioned, or any team for that matter. But when you under perform as we have on several instances, then you can’t be too surprised when bad things happen. It’s kinda like marrying a hooker, don’t be shocked if you come home and she’s in bed with your best friend. Rugby Saint II and gosaints1 like this.

01-06-2021, 08:04 PM	#25
gosaints1 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 576	Re: PFF suggests Saints may have the best roster among playoff contenders Originally Posted by Boston Saint Respect bob, but I didn’t put blame solely on the refs. I pointed out the Minn Miracle was not on the refs. I’m saying it’s unrealistic to think the answer is simply to beat the other team badly enough that the refs can’t determine the outcome. Newsflash... the Saints are not that much better than Green Bay, KC, etc that they can simply decide to be ahead by two or three touchdowns at the end of the game and therefore take the refs out of it. Thinking you are that good is arrogance and leads to the same kind of flat play that cost the Philly game this year. Newsflash - Both the Chiefs AND the Packers have already beaten the Saints this season, therefore unbiased thinking will consider both of those teams as superior. At least on that one day, lol, who knows what the future may bring. But, Luck is an excuse, not a reason. You don’t have to be ahead of an opposing team by two or three touchdowns to have the game in hand. Control the clock, sustain drives, don’t turn the ball over, etc... and you can easily eliminate the ref’s having an determinate affect on a game. Allowing the game to rely on one single play isn’t indicative of bad/good luck. It’s poor play, it’s poor game management both on and off the field, it’s poor playcalling both on/off the field, etc... Bottom line, it wasn’t bad luck that stopped Anzalone from falling on the ball in the end-zone. It was poor execution resulting in a five point swing, not in our favor. Hard to win tough games when you’re “giving” points away.
gosaints1 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 576

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01-06-2021, 08:33 PM	#26
Boston Saint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2020 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 4,868	Re: PFF suggests Saints may have the best roster among playoff contenders Anyway, we are on the verge of going in circles here. I agree that there are plays here and there throughout a game that can determine if a team wins or loses. The Saints have to get as many of those plays correct as they can. But likewise you can make every play perfect and the refs. can still make/not make calls or make bad calls that cost you the game. (Did anyone see the phantom unnecessary roughness Call the lions got on The Cousins sack this past weekend?). The GB game from earlier this year is an example. Saints lost that game. Penalty difference was 8-2 in GB favor with 4-2 GB favor in penalties for first downs. Now, Saints could and should look at plays they didn’t make in that game. But to say that the refs didn’t have an impact on the result of that game that is outside of the player’s control is wrong and to simply say the answer is to “play better” won’t win a Super Bowl If they decide to ignore obvious holds against the Saints D line again and let one set of D backs to get away with things they aren’t letting the other team’s. Just like the players on the field, the refs on the field have a duty to do their job well. When they don’t, things get screwy. Rugby Saint II and gosaints1 like this.
	You think you know, but you don’t know...and you never will! Coach Jim Mora

01-06-2021, 08:50 PM	#27
gosaints1 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 576	Re: PFF suggests Saints may have the best roster among playoff contenders Originally Posted by Boston Saint Anyway, we are on the verge of going in circles here. I agree that there are plays here and there throughout a game that can determine if a team wins or loses. The Saints have to get as many of those plays correct as they can. But likewise you can make every play perfect and the refs. can still make/not make calls or make bad calls that cost you the game. (Did anyone see the phantom unnecessary roughness Call the lions got on The Cousins sack this past weekend?). The GB game from earlier this year is an example. Saints lost that game. Penalty difference was 8-2 in GB favor with 4-2 GB favor in penalties for first downs. Now, Saints could and should look at plays they didn’t make in that game. But to say that the refs didn’t have an impact on the result of that game that is outside of the player’s control is wrong and to simply say the answer is to “play better” won’t win a Super Bowl If they decide to ignore obvious holds against the Saints D line again and let one set of D backs to get away with things they aren’t letting the other team’s. Just like the players on the field, the refs on the field have a duty to do their job well. When they don’t, things get screwy. I hear what you’re saying and agree, somewhat. Problem with your line of logic is that EVERY team’s fan base is using the exact same list of “reasons” we are, here, in this forum. But for some odd reason, we think our “getting screwed by the refs” is legit, in EVERY loss, lol. Not just the Rams/Saints championship game. Yes, there are missed calls, on both sides of the football. I just don’t see it as a reason for losing, I see it as an excuse that the losing side quite frequently uses. It’s fairly obvious that I’m not a believer of the “ref’s are out to get us” mantra..., that being said, the missed DPI call in the Rams/Saints championship game was SO obvious and blatant, along with the ref watching it like a hawk, so badly missed that it makes a fella look side-eyed every now and then, lol. Difference of perceptions here, nothing more, nothing less. Boston Saint likes this.
gosaints1 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 576

01-06-2021, 08:54 PM	#28
bobdog86 Site Donor Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,329	Re: PFF suggests Saints may have the best roster among playoff contenders Originally Posted by Boston Saint Anyway, we are on the verge of going in circles here. I agree that there are plays here and there throughout a game that can determine if a team wins or loses. The Saints have to get as many of those plays correct as they can. But likewise you can make every play perfect and the refs. can still make/not make calls or make bad calls that cost you the game. (Did anyone see the phantom unnecessary roughness Call the lions got on The Cousins sack this past weekend?). The GB game from earlier this year is an example. Saints lost that game. Penalty difference was 8-2 in GB favor with 4-2 GB favor in penalties for first downs. Now, Saints could and should look at plays they didn’t make in that game. But to say that the refs didn’t have an impact on the result of that game that is outside of the player’s control is wrong and to simply say the answer is to “play better” won’t win a Super Bowl If they decide to ignore obvious holds against the Saints D line again and let one set of D backs to get away with things they aren’t letting the other team’s. Just like the players on the field, the refs on the field have a duty to do their job well. When they don’t, things get screwy. Looking at that.....Jenkins had 2 PI calls on one drive, a horse collar on another...at the time our defense literally stunk. We had an offside on 3rd and 7 that led to a fg. GB scored 23 points on drives with penalties. I expect that to be different if we play them again, and also moving forward. When the team plays better because we have the people in coverage, or correct scheme. {not because of the refs} but because we are better.

01-06-2021, 09:15 PM	#29
Boston Saint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2020 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 4,868	Re: PFF suggests Saints may have the best roster among playoff contenders Agreed to both. When I look at losses I try to evaluate what happened. That starts with comparing the team to the opponent. This season’s loses looked like this: GB- Close game against a good team. Can’t say they outplayed the Saints. They got a few turnovers that were unforced, and they hit some long shots. The team stayed with it and kept it close, and I do think the refs had an impact with the lopsided calls as I remember the D line being held all night. Raiders- Tough road game opening a new stadium on Monday night, so they were pumped. Carr passed all over and they scored a lot of points. BUT the penalty difference was large in the game (10-3 5-1). Again, this seems quite a bit on refs. Philly - Completely unprepared in all facets of the game. Refs had no impact. KC - Big game against a big team. Played them as well as they could with deprecated team. Again, missed several hold calls against the D line. But refs didn’t influence the outcome much. Just my thought.
	You think you know, but you don’t know...and you never will! Coach Jim Mora

01-07-2021, 08:09 AM	#30
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 24,391	Re: PFF suggests Saints may have the best roster among playoff contenders Originally Posted by gosaints1 I hear what you’re saying and agree, somewhat. Problem with your line of logic is that EVERY team’s fan base is using the exact same list of “reasons” we are, here, in this forum. But for some odd reason, we think our “getting screwed by the refs” is legit, in EVERY loss, lol. Not just the Rams/Saints championship game. Yes, there are missed calls, on both sides of the football. I just don’t see it as a reason for losing, I see it as an excuse that the losing side quite frequently uses. It’s fairly obvious that I’m not a believer of the “ref’s are out to get us” mantra..., that being said, the missed DPI call in the Rams/Saints championship game was SO obvious and blatant, along with the ref watching it like a hawk, so badly missed that it makes a fella look side-eyed every now and then, lol. Difference of perceptions here, nothing more, nothing less. I have visited forums for virtually every team in the league and I can assure you that the exact same "reasons" have been floated everywhere. The same can be said for callers on sports talk radio. Same thing. Just insert team name in the blank and it's the same story. bobdog86 and gosaints1 like this.