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Per Rotoworld/ Roy Williams

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; I kind of feel the same way about your third paragraph. However, I read somewhere that Williams isn't going anywhere anymore and he'll start along side Calvin Johnson next year. Oh well... it was all hypothetical anyways....

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Old 01-19-2008, 09:03 AM   #21
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Re: Per Rotoworld/ Roy Williams

I kind of feel the same way about your third paragraph. However, I read somewhere that Williams isn't going anywhere anymore and he'll start along side Calvin Johnson next year.

Oh well... it was all hypothetical anyways.
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Old 01-19-2008, 04:17 PM   #22
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Re: Per Rotoworld/ Roy Williams

Originally Posted by procto View Post
i may get the boot from this board for this but i think we should trade will smith. we could get roy williams (and maybe a pick). i realize he maybe our best defensive player but our defense is not good.
So why suggest it then? Frankly it makes no sense to me.


this is what we would have to build on for D.....harper, fujita, c grant. now we could let gibbs build his 3-4 OR we draft all db's and bank on having such a strong offense that teams will have to throw to stay in the games with us.
Good luck with that. No team that's been built on that philosophy has succeeded in winning the championship. Entertaining? Certainly. Championship. Not a chance.

i understand that we have a pretty strong offense already but good defenses can hold us down. nobody can hold the patriots down so who cares how good their defense is. besides......if we were that good on offense i believe that our defense would rank 10 spots higher with the same personnel just b/c what is forces teams to do against u to keep up
Because just like good pitching stops good hitting, good defenses in the NFL generally stop good offenses, especially in the playoffs.

The 2000 Baltimore Ravens and the 1985 Chicago Bears won championships with dominating defenses and really mediocre offenses. The opposite hasn't really been done ever. Last year the Colts defense in the regular season sucked rocks. However, in the playoffs, their defense became championship caliber.

Look at all the great offenses of the SB era. The Chargers in the 70's, the Colts of today, the Rams of the late 90's, and of course the 2007 Patriots. The teams that won championships had defenses capable of stopping other teams in their tracks. Remember that the Colts won a game against Baltimore in which no TDs were scored.

The bottom line is that thinking thematically about offense means that you're not interested in winning a championship.

And don't think that the Patriots of today are not in that category. Right now they are a top 5 defense in this league to go along with the #1 offense.

i know it is just a dream but roy williams is our chance to become the most potent offense in the league! un-stop-able!!!!!!!
And sitting at home watching the playoffs next year, once again.

I'm writing this presuming that you are in fact serious. If this is a joke post, then my apologies.

SFIAH

Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO

Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.
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Old 01-19-2008, 05:44 PM   #23
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Re: Per Rotoworld/ Roy Williams

Originally Posted by procto View Post
i may get the boot from this board for this but i think we should trade will smith. we could get roy williams (and maybe a pick). i realize he maybe our best defensive player but our defense is not good.

this is what we would have to build on for D.....harper, fujita, c grant. now we could let gibbs build his 3-4 OR we draft all db's and bank on having such a strong offense that teams will have to throw to stay in the games with us.

i understand that we have a pretty strong offense already but good defenses can hold us down. nobody can hold the patriots down so who cares how good their defense is. besides......if we were that good on offense i believe that our defense would rank 10 spots higher with the same personnel just b/c what is forces teams to do against u to keep up

i know it is just a dream but roy williams is our chance to become the most potent offense in the league! un-stop-able!!!!!!!
Well, who would want Will Smith? Really? he had a bad year last year. He got handled by all the LTs he faced one-on-one. He wasn't our best defensive player last year, that was Fujita.

And I would disagree that having a better offense would make tis defense rank any higher... not when your Achilles heel is the pass.
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Old 01-19-2008, 07:41 PM   #24
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Re: Per Rotoworld/ Roy Williams

Hey if they want to trade up and use him instead of picks I am all for it.
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Old 01-21-2008, 08:03 AM   #25
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Re: Per Rotoworld/ Roy Williams

well boys, i suggest it because i thought that was what this board was about....fans talking about their team and possibilities of the future. plus i know that many of you are true geniuses that belong in the nfl coaching so i wanted to measure myself

i was just stating what i thought would be fun to watch next year and my point is our defense cannot get any worse than it already is. allowing gibbs to bring in extra guys thru the draft may do the D some good. gibbs would have some confidence in the guys he picks and he could draft to suit the style of D he wants to play. the cowboys picked up all LB's and D lineman just three years ago and look what they have turned that into.

my point was not to give up on D....it was to trade one defensive player that would make our offense unpredictable!
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Old 01-21-2008, 08:06 AM   #26
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Re: Per Rotoworld/ Roy Williams

by the way tobias....definately agree that will smith is not our single best player, MM played even better than fujita did this past year...nobody gives MM credit b/c he has no help in the secondary
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Old 01-21-2008, 10:21 AM   #27
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Re: Per Rotoworld/ Roy Williams

Originally Posted by procto View Post
well boys, i suggest it because i thought that was what this board was about....fans talking about their team and possibilities of the future. plus i know that many of you are true geniuses that belong in the nfl coaching so i wanted to measure myself
That's fine. And welcome. Everyone here is going to bring their opinion to the table.

I'm very firm with mine. The Saints need to improve the defense at all costs. There is nothing on the offensive side of the ball that even ranks in the top 10 of team needs this offseason IMHO. We don't need a #2 receiver. We don't need to replace the backup QB. We don't need another TE. We don't need to shuffle the O-line. We don't need yet another running back in the mix.

None of them are needs. Wants maybe, but not needs.

The Saints defense fails in personnel, coaching, scheme, and technique. Each and every one of the team needs of significance this offseason is on the defensive side of the ball. And they can be prioritized too:

1. Cornerbacks (we need 2 starters)

2. Linebackers (we need 2 starters)

3. D-Line (we need a tackle. In addition we need both ends to step up their games)

4. Safety (if all the above improve, then maybe we can get away with KK and Harper).

i was just stating what i thought would be fun to watch next year and my point is our defense cannot get any worse than it already is.
Frankly I'm no longer interested in fun to watch. I'm interested in going deep into the playoffs, and winning championships. I want the Saints to be the Patriots and Colts of this league: always in the championship mix and a team destined for greatness.

And it doesn't need to be fun at all. I'd be perfectly happy with running the ball 40 times a game and winning 9-3 like the 1985 Bears used to do.

That's why I get frustrated with many of these offseason threads that discuss the offense. Our offense is championship caliber just the way it is. It's championship caliber even in the fact of injuries. I mean we played the last game of the season with out 4th string undrafted rookie running back, and all the guys did was rush for 100+, receive for 100+, and totally shred what was a championship caliber defense. Yet folks are talking about McFadden. We have an offense that was in the top 3 in passing offense in every category, and yet we're talking about getting another receiver.

It drives me nuts. It drives me nuts because our team is sitting at home watching championship caliber defenses go to the championship.

allowing gibbs to bring in extra guys thru the draft may do the D some good. gibbs would have some confidence in the guys he picks and he could draft to suit the style of D he wants to play. the cowboys picked up all LB's and D lineman just three years ago and look what they have turned that into.
As long as we're talking about defense I'm fine with it. Defense in free agency, defense in the draft, defense off the street (like the CB from Grambling we signed off the Bears practice squad).

I'd even be game to drop down if we can pick up an extra starter on defense.

But I fear that both Payton and Gibbs have fallen into the (I hate to say it) Haslett syndrome of sticking to "their guys" no matter what. I feel that Young, Simineau, Shanlee, David, and Bullocks at the very minimum should not have been on the field for the Saints. We had a stud middle LB last year: Danny Clark. They guy was let go. Simmons and Evans are better than the guys we had on the field. Same for KK and Lake. And yet week after week Gibbs and Payton trotted out guys that made our defense look awful.

So even if we bring on more folks, will it make a difference? Will it make a difference if David continues to screw up out on the island? Or if Bullocks is out of the play? Or of Simeneau is swallowed up at the line of scrimmage?

my point was not to give up on D....it was to trade one defensive player that would make our offense unpredictable!
We don't need to do anything to the offense. Nothing. Nada. In the big scheme of things it will make not one whit of difference.

Then to do that you propose actually trading one of the players that at least has the potential of performing on the defensive side of the ball. Trade David or Bullocks and then you may be talking about something. But Smith?

I want a defense that can win the game if the offense kneels down with 3 and outs for an entire game. That's the goal. A defense that will stop the opposing offense in its tracks and will score enough points that they can win the game by themselves. I want the Dome Patrol, the 2000 Ravens, the Steel Curtain, the 1985 Bears.

There's absolutely no offense required for that to happen.

Help me build that defense. Help me find a way to convince Payton and Gibbs that that's the path to a dynasty. Spend your free agent wad on Haynesworth, Samuel, or Briggs. Spend every draft pick this April on defensive studs. Scour the practice squads, restricted free agent lists, and undrafted free agent pools for guys that fly to ball, create pressure, and generate turnovers. Find the next Antonio Cromartie who was drafted so low because he was injured in college.

Find a way to create a defense that works. A defense that is worthy of the offense that Payton has built over the last two years.

A defense that can finally bring a championship to a fanbase that has starved for a whiff of a Superbowl for over 40 years.

Help me do that.

SFIAH

Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO

Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.
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Old 01-21-2008, 10:48 AM   #28
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Re: Per Rotoworld/ Roy Williams

i agree with you! who wouldnt want a defense like the ones named above....the problem is that defenses like that are not built every year....not even every decade, they are few and far between. that is why they all have names. we dont even need a defense that strong! (although i would love it). the rams D was not that good in 99-00.....the colts were not THAT good last year (although they played well in the Playoffs)....the Packers in the 90's....the Cowboys in the 90's.....yea they all had good defenses, it just does not take the talent that you are talking about. there are cap issues especially when you have the offensive players that we have already that keep us from having that kind of defense even with the increase in cap room from 2 years ago.

lets dream....but within what is possible, you forget that we brought in an offensive coach
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Old 01-21-2008, 11:27 AM   #29
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Re: Per Rotoworld/ Roy Williams

Originally Posted by procto View Post
i agree with you! who wouldnt want a defense like the ones named above....the problem is that defenses like that are not built every year....not even every decade, they are few and far between. that is why they all have names. we dont even need a defense that strong! (although i would love it). the rams D was not that good in 99-00
My friend, you've wandered into the wrong area. My longtime quote on this board was:

Every NFL champion since 1983 had a top 10 scoring defense. It's the defense dummy! So fix it!
The 2007 Colts finally broke the string. But that means that you are incorrect on each and every other team that you name here starting with the Rams. You can quickly get the data from here:

Pro Football & NFL History - Pro-Football-Reference.com

The Rams that year were #4 in scoring defense in the league.

.....the colts were not THAT good last year (although they played well in the Playoffs)....
The string was broken here. During the regular season their defense was terrible. But in the playoffs they played like at top 5 defense, which BTW they followed up last season with a top 3 ranking.

[the Packers in the 90's....
#1 scoring defense the year they won, #5 the year they lost to the Broncos.

the Cowboys in the 90's
#5, #2, and #3 those three years.
.....yea they all had good defenses,
No. They all had great defenses. Top 5 defenses. It's a theme that's so consistent that it cannot be denied.

If the Giants win this year, they again will be the aberation because they ranked #17. The Pats are #4.

it just does not take the talent that you are talking about. there are cap issues especially when you have the offensive players that we have already that keep us from having that kind of defense even with the increase in cap room from 2 years ago.
You don't need an allstar team to have a great defense. Look at the Minnesota Vikings of the past 2 years. Their run defense is superb. Can you name more than one player on their defense?

It takes a commitment to build such a defense. Everyone from the owner, GM, head coach, coordinator, scouts, and players have to decide that having great defense is the cornerstone of the franchise, the path to greatness. Set a simple goal:

The New Orleans Saints will have a top 5 scoring defense in the NFL consistently.

Now figure out how to do it. The Saints would not have a top 5 offense without Brees. The defense needs a similar player in terms of talent, leadership, and drive. Spend the money there.

You need young guys with talent and a burning desire to succeed. Draft them or bring them in as free agents. If they don't work out, then sit them and get someone else.

You have to find a scheme that works. Putting David out on an island doesn't work. So adjust or get someone out there who can function on the island.

Start with commitment. Then stock with talent. Then coach them up. Make it happen.

lets dream....but within what is possible, you forget that we brought in an offensive coach
It happened on the offensive side of the ball in a single year. It can be done on defense. Not every position needs a pro bowler. But you need a squad that works together to achieve the goal.

Finally Payton is a head coach. In this league you can't just play offense. Funnily enough you can just play defense and win. Payton and Gibbs have to commit to building such a defense at all costs. Payton should want to do it because he can use that defense as his security blanket for his offense.

And I counter that Brian Billick was the offensive coordinator of the most prolific offense in the NFL. A scoring record that stood for a decade until broken by the Patriots last month.

All the guy did was have the #1 defense in the NFL and win a championship in 2000.

The Saints have to attain the will to be a defensive juggernaut. Everything else will flow from that.

SFIAH

Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO

Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.
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Old 01-21-2008, 11:40 AM   #30
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Re: Per Rotoworld/ Roy Williams

Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper View Post
Well, who would want Will Smith? Really? he had a bad year last year. He got handled by all the LTs he faced one-on-one. He wasn't our best defensive player last year, that was Fujita.

And I would disagree that having a better offense would make tis defense rank any higher... not when your Achilles heel is the pass.
The Saints have multiple Achilles heels on defense. They give up the big play. They can't consistently get to the QB. They can't get off the field on 3rd down. They don't generate turnovers.

In 2006 they couldn't stop the run. They were the #3 pass defense in the NFL.

In 2007 they stopped the run and gave up the pass.

The defense will not improve until they stop the run, the pass, and the big play consistently. And they need to generate turnovers.

SFIAH
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