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this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; We HAVEN\"T made major changes at any point. See 2002. And I don\'t care who else we drafted, the Sully pick was such a HUGE gaffe it should never be ignored again. We weren\'t at number six originally, we traded ...

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Old 04-06-2005, 01:16 PM   #11
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We HAVEN\"T made major changes at any point.
See 2002.

And I don\'t care who else we drafted, the Sully pick was such a HUGE gaffe it should never be ignored again. We weren\'t at number six originally, we traded TWO FIRST ROUNDERS to move up and select our bust, about 20 something spots before he was projected. I also think this was a bigger bust pick than Ryan Leaf. I am at a loss still at the magnitude of a choice that poor. It\'s mind-boggling. That\'s worse than trading two drafts for Ricky, cause at least Ricky got us two number one picks back. Sullivan has gotten us nothing but ridicule. So while this guy obviously exaggerates and skews facts, the basic premisse of what he is saying has merit.
I can\'t believe people think this way. What basic premise? That we\'ve been mediocre? WOW what a freaking revalation.
That gives him a free pass to miss on everything else he says?
One horrendous decision, and the entire roster is a bunch of hacks?
You guys are smarter than this. Ya\'ll jus messin with me huh?
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Old 04-06-2005, 01:24 PM   #12
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Hold up dude. Just cause someone disagrees with you, no need to question intelligence. You know we are smart, we have a different opinion than you. First, the basic premisse is this
Is there any team in the league that needs to blow things up and start over more than the Saints?
which is what I agree with. When we were 4-8 last year, I prayed we would be 4-12. No more Haslett, very high draft pick, huge changes. No dice, we came back to even steven, as normal.

Second, what are these big changes you are harping about from 2002. I must have been asleep that year. What were they?

Number 3, where did he say the roster was hacks? I don\'t recall reading that. I recall reading him saying we needed major change, which we do. Do you disagree with that? When he talks about starting over, it could mean coaches, it could mean GM, it could mean players. You automatically took it to mean players, and more specifically AB.

[Edited on 6/4/2005 by saintswhodi]

[Edited on 6/4/2005 by saintswhodi]

[Edited on 6/4/2005 by saintswhodi]
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Old 04-06-2005, 01:38 PM   #13
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I had a great post but it got lost so I\'ll kinda sum it all up.

whodi....I didn\'t think I was the only Saints fan that could take the gold-colored glasses off and see what the rest of the country sees. I was going to make the point about what Danno said about the \"hacks\" on our team. Look....I don\'t think that anyone doubts the talent level of Deuce, Will Smith, McKenzie and so forth. But why talk about what we are doing right when we\'ve done so much wrong for so long now? So many Saints fans think that the media owes it to us to praise our star players like they praise the star players for Philly and New England. However, no one cares how they perform when the team is freakin 8-8. What does it matter??? No one has to say nice things about our team, and I don\'t expect it.
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Old 04-06-2005, 01:42 PM   #14
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which is what I agree with. When we were 4-8 last year, I prayed we would be 4-12. No more Haslett, very high draft pick, huge changes. No dice, we came back to even steven, as normal.
during those last four games-i was at my grandparents and my grandfather and I were watching the games and he says to me: because fo this the saints will bring back haslett and brooks...

now-I\'m not sure haslet is an awful coach-to be honest some of the talent has been so bad it\'s hard to tell. Brooks on the other hand has proven he needs to be benched, atleast..and shown that he can\'t do as he pleases and not be held acountable...for that I fault the coaching staff--doing the same thing each time and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity. so, that said-I do fault our coaching staff for not developing players.

But the real problem in New Orleans si TOm Benson. as long as he is owner-we will be mediocre..just good enough to draw fans, and give us hope..but the bottom line will allways rule.

look at atlanta--when they finally got an owner who cared about football..they started to be aggressive in aquisitions. THey also blew up the team so they could get in a position to get Vick-which has lead to more money--now will vick be the savior--not until he learns to play football and use his teammates..which may not happen, but it has a chance..and right now they rule the division and are a force to be reckoned with.

let\'s be very honest-aaron brooks is not as talented as micheal vick, steve mcnair,Brett farve, donovan Mcnabb, peyton Manning or even drew bledsoe or Tom Brady....he is a third teir qb.

McCalister was a good pick up-the problem their was they knew he was injury prone, but didn\'t provide for a backup for him of any quality.

OUr line: we keep getting retreads-and that isn\'t working..Moving bentley was a stupid stupid move, and we should have gone strong after the kid from miss. state--can\'t remember his name...but he signed with seatle. My only hope here is that in the later rounds we will move to get Adam Terry and Wesly Britt (brown and baron will be gone, and barnes is a major project).

ON defense: Drafting smith was a brilliant move-esp. if we can turn Howard into a linebacker/cornerback and picks...

SUllivan was a stupid move...everyone knew it then and knows it now...we could have had him/or better with our picks and gotten a primo Cornerback that could/ve kept us from having to get MM..and even if we had gotten him-we\'d be more the better.

now: smith was a good signing, letting ambrose and t-bucky go were goo moves-esp. ambrose who is just taking up space.

Linebackers- Allen and colby are special teams/backups..watson is the only guy who we have that should be starting. We could have won more though if the coaching staff had held the players accountable.


that is the biggest problem-accountability, work ethic and proffessionalism....until we have that we won\'t have a playoff caliber team..regardless of whos at QB/RB/TE/kicker/etc.
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Old 04-06-2005, 01:45 PM   #15
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Hold up dude. Just cause someone disagrees with you, no need to question intelligence.
If they back up their statements with incorrect data, its impossible not to.

Second, what are these big changes you are harping about from 2002. I must have been asleep that year. What were they?
7 new starters on defense? The \"we just need time to gell\" era?
Number 3, where did he say the roster was hacks? I don\'t recall reading that. I recall reading him saying we needed major change, which we do. Do you disagree with that? When he talks about starting over, it could mean coaches, it could mean GM, it could mean players. You automatically took it to mean players, and more specifically AB.
But his entire article focused on personnel. What did I miss? If he meant coaches and front office, why didn\'t he infer that? I would have enjoyed the article a bit more if he actually made a valid point occasionally. But maybe thats just me.
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Old 04-06-2005, 01:45 PM   #16
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I had a great post but it got lost so I\'ll kinda sum it all up.

whodi....I didn\'t think I was the only Saints fan that could take the gold-colored glasses off and see what the rest of the country sees. I was going to make the point about what Danno said about the \"hacks\" on our team. Look....I don\'t think that anyone doubts the talent level of Deuce, Will Smith, McKenzie and so forth. But why talk about what we are doing right when we\'ve done so much wrong for so long now? So many Saints fans think that the media owes it to us to praise our star players like they praise the star players for Philly and New England. However, no one cares how they perform when the team is freakin 8-8. What does it matter??? No one has to say nice things about our team, and I don\'t expect it.
look, I\'m a huge braves fan and a spurs fan...and I\'ll tell you-while the spurs ween\'t winning in the =playofs and with the braves loosing every october-the media doesn\'t want to talk about them..even when the do win..it\'s almost like the media is forced to talk about them-mostly because they aren\'t sexy....

but as long as we are a middle of the pack team--no one cares about the saints....except for those of us who follow them even though they break our hearts.

I\'m gonna add something else: it scares the crap out of me that our coach comes out and says that they really didn\'t have any direction the first 3 years or so..and now they do as for as what players they want...isn\'t that something you come in with as a coach/gm?

ALso..there are a number of really good LInebackers--old,a nd maybe not premier guys..but good guys to go with our youngsters now...but we don\'t get them? we don\'t get Rob morris, Sharper, Fujita? these guys are all better than Ruff, rodgers, Hodge, and maybe even allen.

We don\'t go after the top teir linebackers to give us a stud core and ease our draft? WTF?

I like some of the signings...I wished we got womack..but mayberry wasn\'t a bad signing....SMith and the TE were okay signings....and smith was a steal..but we could definitly do better than Ruff, rodgers, and hodge....

[Edited on 6/4/2005 by baronm]
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Old 04-06-2005, 01:54 PM   #17
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which is what I agree with. When we were 4-8 last year, I prayed we would be 4-12. No more Haslett, very high draft pick, huge changes. No dice, we came back to even steven, as normal.
during those last four games-i was at my grandparents and my grandfather and I were watching the games and he says to me: because fo this the saints will bring back haslett and brooks...

now-I\'m not sure haslet is an awful coach-to be honest some of the talent has been so bad it\'s hard to tell. Brooks on the other hand has proven he needs to be benched, atleast..and shown that he can\'t do as he pleases and not be held acountable...for that I fault the coaching staff--doing the same thing each time and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity. so, that said-I do fault our coaching staff for not developing players.

But the real problem in New Orleans si TOm Benson. as long as he is owner-we will be mediocre..just good enough to draw fans, and give us hope..but the bottom line will allways rule.

look at atlanta--when they finally got an owner who cared about football..they started to be aggressive in aquisitions. THey also blew up the team so they could get in a position to get Vick-which has lead to more money--now will vick be the savior--not until he learns to play football and use his teammates..which may not happen, but it has a chance..and right now they rule the division and are a force to be reckoned with.

let\'s be very honest-aaron brooks is not as talented as micheal vick, steve mcnair,Brett farve, donovan Mcnabb, peyton Manning or even drew bledsoe or Tom Brady....he is a third teir qb.

McCalister was a good pick up-the problem their was they knew he was injury prone, but didn\'t provide for a backup for him of any quality.

OUr line: we keep getting retreads-and that isn\'t working..Moving bentley was a stupid stupid move, and we should have gone strong after the kid from miss. state--can\'t remember his name...but he signed with seatle. My only hope here is that in the later rounds we will move to get Adam Terry and Wesly Britt (brown and baron will be gone, and barnes is a major project).

ON defense: Drafting smith was a brilliant move-esp. if we can turn Howard into a linebacker/cornerback and picks...

SUllivan was a stupid move...everyone knew it then and knows it now...we could have had him/or better with our picks and gotten a primo Cornerback that could/ve kept us from having to get MM..and even if we had gotten him-we\'d be more the better.

now: smith was a good signing, letting ambrose and t-bucky go were goo moves-esp. ambrose who is just taking up space.

Linebackers- Allen and colby are special teams/backups..watson is the only guy who we have that should be starting. We could have won more though if the coaching staff had held the players accountable.


that is the biggest problem-accountability, work ethic and proffessionalism....until we have that we won\'t have a playoff caliber team..regardless of whos at QB/RB/TE/kicker/etc.
Great post. If the author had written it the way you just did it would have been much more valid. But he didn\'t. He simply said we sucked, and backed it up with incorrect reasons for it.
You stated your point and backed it up with facts (some are debateable) that actually supported your position.
Your post (while I disagree with some of your assessments) was written better than the original one.
Thats what I\'m talkin bout!

'Tolerance And Apathy Are The Last Virtues Of A Dying Society'
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Old 04-06-2005, 02:07 PM   #18
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[quoteGreat post. If the author had written it the way you just did it would have been much more valid. But he didn\'t. He simply said we sucked, and backed it up with incorrect reasons for it.
You stated your point and backed it up with facts (some are debateable) that actually supported your position.
Your post (while I disagree with some of your assessments) was written better than the original one.
Thats what I\'m talkin bout! [/quote:0ba25a402a]

Well mainly what\'s been posted in the articles are opinions, so he doesn\'t have to back it up with any facts. Most of what everyone has posted here have been opinions. I didn\'t really pay too much attention to his fine details, because each guy is going to have his different reasons for saying why the Saints should just start all over. He has his reasons, and I have my own(slightly different) reasons. I didn\'t agree with everything he said, but I didn\'t just go dismissing the whole post. He DID make valid points, which deep down I don\'t even think that you can dispute, even though you tried. Try to think objectively.

For all of the article\'s shortcomings, the point is that we agree(I think) on the main idea though....the Saints need to just start rebuilding because it isn\'t working so far.
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Old 04-06-2005, 02:08 PM   #19
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quote:We HAVEN\"T made major changes at any point.

See 2002.

Uh.... Danno? I remember 2002. What were those major changes again?
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Old 04-06-2005, 02:24 PM   #20
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gt and whodi about summed up my thoughts in general but i must respond some...

the drafts have been a lot of hit and miss just like the team performance. besides sullivan as an all-time hall of shame bust, having two 2nd rounders that cannot even make the active roster is pretty bad as well. but i am not interested in bickering over the details of what someone else said. most sportswriting is a whole lotta fluff. i do think he tapped into a central truth though. how long can an owner or fans stand for mediocrity through schizophrenic performance? how long do you carry the tag as perhaps the most underachieving team in the nfl? how long do you go with a same basic formula of coaches and players with unsatisfactory results? four game win streaks or four game collapses at the end of the season are still yielding the same result. to my unprofessional eye i do not see the performance going the right direction even if the record stays the same. i am not a big pusher of stats but look at the team ranking in overall offense and defense since 2000-
YEAR--OFF--DEF
2000---10----11
2001---08----19
2002---18----28
2003---10----18
2004---16----32
these read what my eyes see, wrong direction.
i actually have some like for haz as a coach but i dunno if he can do it here. sometimes we all need a change to be the best we can be. remember belicheck was run out of cleveland. it i haven\'t ever heard or read anything about loomis that encouraged me about him being the navigator of this ship. i know we will not ever approach even the fringes of cap hell but i dunno if he has the imagination, guile, or balls to facilitate the push to the next level.
as far as the roster, it is certainly no group of hacks and i haven\'t seen that written. it is a problem for me though that with as much apparent talent base there is, the bottomline does not advance. and even if 32-32 for four seasons the play has deteriorated. going from 11th to 32nd in defense in five seasons warrants more than one major free agent upgrade, hope that a 7th round sophmore can hold the fort for an entire season, hope that a so far alltime bust can just play some, hope that the lights are on to stay for allen, and hope that your 33yr old SS can keep his performance up and his legs going.
ya know what? i hope as much or more than anyone around here. i have been hoping since my gary cuozzo, jim taylor, and doug atkins football cards were perched on my nightstand next to my bed. i hope they prove the naysayers wrong, make a 12-4 run, and win the superbowl. even more though i hope we do not see another 8-8 season filled with streaks and erratic play. worse would be the same team performance, go 8-8, and eek into the playoffs. that would probably secure the same formula for yet another season. i am a saints fan so patience has to be a part of my nature. jeff fisher went 31-33 his first four seasons. the titans then busted out and have been perennial contenders. the cap demon bit them this year but he and the front office still have the unwavering support of bud adams. if not past time, it certainly should be the defining season to determine the capabilities and direction of this team and it\'s staff... i hope!
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