ARE WE SEEING THE NEW NFL...

Rugby Saint II · 02-13-2021, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by gosaints1

Agreed, Monday Morning QB’ing on whom “we could have got” is a recipe for disaster. But, I do believe it is fair to look at a player’s portfolio or body of work as a standalone evaluation. For example, in a cost benefit analysis, was the Davenport move a success, based on his body of work comparative to the cost it took to get him? I’d argue no, it wasn’t a successful move. I do agree however that going back and comparing player to player from previous draft’s is a nonsensical argument.

We had a stocked roster where one or two players could put us over the top. Payton tends to move up for the players who can fill a role in our system. Quality over quantity! I liked the move because Armstead is so fluid. No one knew he dinged up easily or would tear his Achilles.

We may take a different draft approach this year and actually trade back to get more ammunition. We need a lot of cheap contracts.

SmashMouth · 02-13-2021, 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by gosaints1

Agreed, Monday Morning QB’ing on whom “we could have got” is a recipe for disaster. But, I do believe it is fair to look at a player’s portfolio or body of work as a standalone evaluation. For example, in a cost benefit analysis, was the Davenport move a success, based on his body of work comparative to the cost it took to get him? I’d argue no, it wasn’t a successful move. I do agree however that going back and comparing player to player from previous draft’s is a nonsensical argument.

Historically, it has not proven to be a good investment to offer multiple picks to move up, unless a franchise player comes along, like a Mahomes. We've had more.than our fair share of players whom didn't measure up to their draft picks cost. It's not the player's fault , but SP and Loomis for listening and pulling the trigger. With today's salaries , it's simply no longer worth mortgaging a team into salary cap hell. At some point you have to pay the Piper.

On the other hand, if SP knows the rulebook like BB, then in all likelihood we have another Tiffany or two... And then everything I just said carries less weight.

vpheughan · 02-14-2021, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by SmashMouth

Historically, it has not proven to be a good investment to offer multiple picks to move up, unless a franchise player comes along, like a Mahomes. We've had more.than our fair share of players whom didn't measure up to their draft picks cost. It's not the player's fault , but SP and Loomis for listening and pulling the trigger. With today's salaries , it's simply no longer worth mortgaging a team into salary cap hell. At some point you have to pay the Piper.

On the other hand, if SP knows the rulebook like BB, then in all likelihood we have another Tiffany or two... And then everything I just said carries less weight.

What's more important Hit on all draft choices and/or hit with and FA or trade? Taysom Hill,Teddy Bridgewater (as I asked What is a WIN worth?) he provided 5 consecutive. Pierre Thomas, Deonte Harris, Marcus Callaway just a few of the FA "HITS"

gosaints1 · 02-14-2021, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by Rugby Saint II

We had a stocked roster where one or two players could put us over the top. Payton tends to move up for the players who can fill a role in our system. Quality over quantity! I liked the move because Armstead is so fluid. No one knew he dinged up easily or would tear his Achilles.

We may take a different draft approach this year and actually trade back to get more ammunition. We need a lot of cheap contracts.

Fully understand, and agree. I also liked the move to go get Davenport, aka the guy we really liked. I can separate the reality of the situation now from the unknowns at the time the draft processes were in action. I won’t beat the coaches up over this one, imho, it was simply an aggressive move to get a guy that had/has tremendous upside..., but just hasn’t worked out well here, so far.

saintsfan1976 · 02-14-2021, 01:05 PM

Davenport is not a bust. Stop suggesting it. You can't predict future injuries.

vpheughan · 02-14-2021, 02:44 PM

Use BOLD FONT and say it over and over and over and over and over.......

jeanpierre · 02-14-2021, 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by gosaints1

Agreed, Monday Morning QB’ing on whom “we could have got” is a recipe for disaster. But, I do believe it is fair to look at a player’s portfolio or body of work as a standalone evaluation. For example, in a cost benefit analysis, was the Davenport move a success, based on his body of work comparative to the cost it took to get him? I’d argue no, it wasn’t a successful move. I do agree however that going back and comparing player to player from previous draft’s is a nonsensical argument.

So continue making the same mistakes, never learning, improving?

jeanpierre · 02-14-2021, 08:53 PM

Originally Posted by Rugby Saint II

We had a stocked roster where one or two players could put us over the top. Payton tends to move up for the players who can fill a role in our system. Quality over quantity! I liked the move because Armstead is so fluid. No one knew he dinged up easily or would tear his Achilles.

We may take a different draft approach this year and actually trade back to get more ammunition. We need a lot of cheap contracts.

And yet the 2009 team had lesser talent and won the whole thing...

Quality over quantity, totally agree. But wouldn't it be better to have just one or two elite players and have a number of players at all the positions, than have holes at the end of the season?

Name the stacked rosters of the Patriots Championship teams; most won't get past Brady and Gronk; but they were loaded with role players...

You gotta have more darts for the draft dart board and you have to have salary cap flexibility, otherwise you can't adjust to get better or, if you've made it, change it up to keep the competition off-balance...

gosaints1 · 02-15-2021, 07:29 AM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

So continue making the same mistakes, never learning, improving?

Hmmm, I view the draft as a gamble, from the very first selection to the very last, and regardless of team or coach or executive, they all make mistakes, and lots of them. Heck, Tom Brady almost fell completely out of the draft. Are we really trying to insinuate that, in retrospect, there were 198 draft choice mistakes ahead of a guy like Tom Brady? It’s a fair argument to make, that had Brady been drafted by the 1-15 Carolina Panthers team, then he might not be what he is today.

Bottom line, all teams make mistakes when it comes to drafting, and personnel selection is the biggest gamble of all, even for the best scouting teams. In retrospect, every move could be labeled a mistake. As for “improving”? Tell me how one improves on the ability to have foreknowledge of the future. Learning? There is no doubt that they’ve learned from the things they’ve done well, and those they haven’t, wrt drafts.

idk jp, a fair argument can be made that certain superstar players on other teams would have been failures on our team bc of lack of coaching or any other unique environmental considerations specific to each individual team. I’m not defending CSP’s drafting since he got here, heck I would even argue in your favor that he hasn’t had much success. But, you haven’t sold me on the idea that if he had chosen other people, the outcomes would have been measurably different. ie..., had the Saints drafted Tom Brady, would we have played in ten Superbowls? With our coaching at that time? lol, nah, I just can’t get on board with the idea that looking backwards logic will improve our foreknowledge thinking wrt improving drafting.

Boston Saint · 02-15-2021, 08:09 AM

No doubt this is important, but I think a major overlooked factor is the timing of injuries. I don’t think Tampa wins if KC isn’t missing 3 O linemen and I don’t think they beat the Saints if Hill, Murray, Thomas, and Harris are healthy. Tampa had a late bye and got all their pieces healthy at the right moment. Throw in the obvious favoritism the refs gave them during the playoffs and boom, 7 rings for Brady.

02-13-2021, 02:40 PM	#11
Rugby Saint II Bounty Money $$$ Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 5800 Airline Dr. Metairie, LA. Posts: 23,733	Re: ARE WE SEEING THE NEW NFL... Originally Posted by gosaints1 Agreed, Monday Morning QB’ing on whom “we could have got” is a recipe for disaster. But, I do believe it is fair to look at a player’s portfolio or body of work as a standalone evaluation. For example, in a cost benefit analysis, was the Davenport move a success, based on his body of work comparative to the cost it took to get him? I’d argue no, it wasn’t a successful move. I do agree however that going back and comparing player to player from previous draft’s is a nonsensical argument. We had a stocked roster where one or two players could put us over the top. Payton tends to move up for the players who can fill a role in our system. Quality over quantity! I liked the move because Armstead is so fluid. No one knew he dinged up easily or would tear his Achilles. We may take a different draft approach this year and actually trade back to get more ammunition. We need a lot of cheap contracts. gosaints1 likes this.

02-13-2021, 06:31 PM	#12
SmashMouth I donated, did you? Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Mandeville, LA Posts: 36,998 Blog Entries: 29	Re: ARE WE SEEING THE NEW NFL... Originally Posted by gosaints1 Agreed, Monday Morning QB’ing on whom “we could have got” is a recipe for disaster. But, I do believe it is fair to look at a player’s portfolio or body of work as a standalone evaluation. For example, in a cost benefit analysis, was the Davenport move a success, based on his body of work comparative to the cost it took to get him? I’d argue no, it wasn’t a successful move. I do agree however that going back and comparing player to player from previous draft’s is a nonsensical argument. Historically, it has not proven to be a good investment to offer multiple picks to move up, unless a franchise player comes along, like a Mahomes. We've had more.than our fair share of players whom didn't measure up to their draft picks cost. It's not the player's fault , but SP and Loomis for listening and pulling the trigger. With today's salaries , it's simply no longer worth mortgaging a team into salary cap hell. At some point you have to pay the Piper. On the other hand, if SP knows the rulebook like BB, then in all likelihood we have another Tiffany or two... And then everything I just said carries less weight. jeanpierre and gosaints1 like this.

02-14-2021, 07:54 AM	#13
vpheughan 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,499	Re: ARE WE SEEING THE NEW NFL... Originally Posted by SmashMouth Historically, it has not proven to be a good investment to offer multiple picks to move up, unless a franchise player comes along, like a Mahomes. We've had more.than our fair share of players whom didn't measure up to their draft picks cost. It's not the player's fault , but SP and Loomis for listening and pulling the trigger. With today's salaries , it's simply no longer worth mortgaging a team into salary cap hell. At some point you have to pay the Piper. On the other hand, if SP knows the rulebook like BB, then in all likelihood we have another Tiffany or two... And then everything I just said carries less weight. What's more important Hit on all draft choices and/or hit with and FA or trade? Taysom Hill,Teddy Bridgewater (as I asked What is a WIN worth?) he provided 5 consecutive. Pierre Thomas, Deonte Harris, Marcus Callaway just a few of the FA "HITS"
vpheughan 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,499

02-14-2021, 09:08 AM	#14
gosaints1 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 576	Re: ARE WE SEEING THE NEW NFL... Originally Posted by Rugby Saint II We had a stocked roster where one or two players could put us over the top. Payton tends to move up for the players who can fill a role in our system. Quality over quantity! I liked the move because Armstead is so fluid. No one knew he dinged up easily or would tear his Achilles. We may take a different draft approach this year and actually trade back to get more ammunition. We need a lot of cheap contracts. Fully understand, and agree. I also liked the move to go get Davenport, aka the guy we really liked. I can separate the reality of the situation now from the unknowns at the time the draft processes were in action. I won’t beat the coaches up over this one, imho, it was simply an aggressive move to get a guy that had/has tremendous upside..., but just hasn’t worked out well here, so far. Rugby Saint II likes this.
gosaints1 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 576

02-14-2021, 01:05 PM	#15
saintsfan1976 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Atlanta Posts: 10,538 Blog Entries: 3	Re: ARE WE SEEING THE NEW NFL... Davenport is not a bust. Stop suggesting it. You can't predict future injuries. AsylumGuido and Rugby Saint II like this.

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02-14-2021, 02:44 PM	#16
vpheughan 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,499	Re: ARE WE SEEING THE NEW NFL... Use BOLD FONT and say it over and over and over and over and over....... Rugby Saint II likes this.
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02-14-2021, 08:49 PM	#17
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: ARE WE SEEING THE NEW NFL... Originally Posted by gosaints1 Agreed, Monday Morning QB’ing on whom “we could have got” is a recipe for disaster. But, I do believe it is fair to look at a player’s portfolio or body of work as a standalone evaluation. For example, in a cost benefit analysis, was the Davenport move a success, based on his body of work comparative to the cost it took to get him? I’d argue no, it wasn’t a successful move. I do agree however that going back and comparing player to player from previous draft’s is a nonsensical argument. So continue making the same mistakes, never learning, improving? K Major likes this.

02-14-2021, 08:53 PM	#18
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: ARE WE SEEING THE NEW NFL... Originally Posted by Rugby Saint II We had a stocked roster where one or two players could put us over the top. Payton tends to move up for the players who can fill a role in our system. Quality over quantity! I liked the move because Armstead is so fluid. No one knew he dinged up easily or would tear his Achilles. We may take a different draft approach this year and actually trade back to get more ammunition. We need a lot of cheap contracts. And yet the 2009 team had lesser talent and won the whole thing... Quality over quantity, totally agree. But wouldn't it be better to have just one or two elite players and have a number of players at all the positions, than have holes at the end of the season? Name the stacked rosters of the Patriots Championship teams; most won't get past Brady and Gronk; but they were loaded with role players... You gotta have more darts for the draft dart board and you have to have salary cap flexibility, otherwise you can't adjust to get better or, if you've made it, change it up to keep the competition off-balance... SmashMouth likes this.
	It's not that my way is the right way, I just make the right way my way...

02-15-2021, 07:29 AM	#19
gosaints1 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 576	Re: ARE WE SEEING THE NEW NFL... Originally Posted by jeanpierre So continue making the same mistakes, never learning, improving? Hmmm, I view the draft as a gamble, from the very first selection to the very last, and regardless of team or coach or executive, they all make mistakes, and lots of them. Heck, Tom Brady almost fell completely out of the draft. Are we really trying to insinuate that, in retrospect, there were 198 draft choice mistakes ahead of a guy like Tom Brady? It’s a fair argument to make, that had Brady been drafted by the 1-15 Carolina Panthers team, then he might not be what he is today. Bottom line, all teams make mistakes when it comes to drafting, and personnel selection is the biggest gamble of all, even for the best scouting teams. In retrospect, every move could be labeled a mistake. As for “improving”? Tell me how one improves on the ability to have foreknowledge of the future. Learning? There is no doubt that they’ve learned from the things they’ve done well, and those they haven’t, wrt drafts. idk jp, a fair argument can be made that certain superstar players on other teams would have been failures on our team bc of lack of coaching or any other unique environmental considerations specific to each individual team. I’m not defending CSP’s drafting since he got here, heck I would even argue in your favor that he hasn’t had much success. But, you haven’t sold me on the idea that if he had chosen other people, the outcomes would have been measurably different. ie..., had the Saints drafted Tom Brady, would we have played in ten Superbowls? With our coaching at that time? lol, nah, I just can’t get on board with the idea that looking backwards logic will improve our foreknowledge thinking wrt improving drafting. jnormand and AsylumGuido like this.
gosaints1 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 576

02-15-2021, 08:09 AM	#20
Boston Saint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2020 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 4,874	Re: ARE WE SEEING THE NEW NFL... No doubt this is important, but I think a major overlooked factor is the timing of injuries. I don’t think Tampa wins if KC isn’t missing 3 O linemen and I don’t think they beat the Saints if Hill, Murray, Thomas, and Harris are healthy. Tampa had a late bye and got all their pieces healthy at the right moment. Throw in the obvious favoritism the refs gave them during the playoffs and boom, 7 rings for Brady. neugey, saintsfan1976, AsylumGuido and 2 others like this.