We Haven’t Beat A Stable Established QB

Sinner · 01-05-2023, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by BakoSaint

17 years ago Mickey Loomis and Tom Benson interviewed Sean Payton and hired him. Then a few months later Sean Payton, Mickey Loomis, and Tom Benson took a shot on a badly injured Drew Brees after the Dolphins passed on him. Payton and Brees led new Orleans to a great record from 2006-2020. Mickey Loomis was an accountant who was in a room where some good decisions happened 17 years ago. He is best known for his skill at borrowing money to win now in exchange for debt that he has to borrow money just to cancel out and try to break even in the future, at the expense of roster flexibility to move on from players who no longer fit the system or can't stay healthy. Since Payton and Brees left, all Loomis knows it to do Loomis which is borrowing and borrowing and borrowing and destroying our roster flexibility and that does not work when you no longer have Payton and Brees.

17 years is a long time. In the time that Mickey Loomis was GM of the Saints, Jerry Reese became GM of the New York Giants, won two Super Bowls over Tom Brady with coaching and scouting experience, declined, and was let go. Reese is younger than Loomis and more successful but can't find a job because for some reason he is not enough like a son to any owner like Loomis is. Lots of GM's were great and then 17 years later were not great. Al Davis was one of the best GM's in league history if he has just not tried to keep doing it forever.

We can't let our pre-Loomis record impact our decisions moving forward. It is not relevent. We can't let past failure become an excuse to accept present mediocrity or it will lead to future failure. We let go the first coach who led us to the playoffs. Soon after we had a new coach and won our first playoff game. Then we let go of that coach and GM and we won a super bowl. Now that coach left and that GM is washed. The trend is that we have moved forward only by letting go of the past. Hanging onto 2009 out of fear of 1980 is what will get us back to 1980 not 2009. With a new regime we can win multiple Super Bowls because our fans are our greatest asset not a geriatric accountant.

^^^ THIS.

AsylumGuido · 01-05-2023, 04:01 PM

More white noise.

iceshack149 · 01-05-2023, 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by BakoSaint

17 years ago Mickey Loomis and Tom Benson interviewed Sean Payton and hired him. Then a few months later Sean Payton, Mickey Loomis, and Tom Benson took a shot on a badly injured Drew Brees after the Dolphins passed on him. Payton and Brees led new Orleans to a great record from 2006-2020. Mickey Loomis was an accountant who was in a room where some good decisions happened 17 years ago. He is best known for his skill at borrowing money to win now in exchange for debt that he has to borrow money just to cancel out and try to break even in the future, at the expense of roster flexibility to move on from players who no longer fit the system or can't stay healthy. Since Payton and Brees left, all Loomis knows it to do Loomis which is borrowing and borrowing and borrowing and destroying our roster flexibility and that does not work when you no longer have Payton and Brees.

17 years is a long time. In the time that Mickey Loomis was GM of the Saints, Jerry Reese became GM of the New York Giants, won two Super Bowls over Tom Brady with coaching and scouting experience, declined, and was let go. Reese is younger than Loomis and more successful but can't find a job because for some reason he is not enough like a son to any owner like Loomis is. Lots of GM's were great and then 17 years later were not great. Al Davis was one of the best GM's in league history if he has just not tried to keep doing it forever.

We can't let our pre-Loomis record impact our decisions moving forward. It is not relevent. We can't let past failure become an excuse to accept present mediocrity or it will lead to future failure. We let go the first coach who led us to the playoffs. Soon after we had a new coach and won our first playoff game. Then we let go of that coach and GM and we won a super bowl. Now that coach left and that GM is washed. The trend is that we have moved forward only by letting go of the past. Hanging onto 2009 out of fear of 1980 is what will get us back to 1980 not 2009. With a new regime we can win multiple Super Bowls because our fans are our greatest asset not a geriatric accountant.

I appreciate differing perspectives from the norm, which I think BakoSaint's post is. Many fans (we know a few on this board) think that the Saints management knows better than any of us so whatever they decide to do is always the correct decision.
That said, I think that the Saints have a solid replacement on the player selection side of GM decisions with Jeff Ireland as evidenced by the strong drafts the Saints have had since he's been with the team. Payton doesn't make those decisions any longer and Loomis remains the glorified accountant.

AsylumGuido · 01-05-2023, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by iceshack149

I appreciate differing perspectives from the norm, which I think BakoSaint's post is. Many fans (we know a few on this board) think that the Saints management knows better than any of us so whatever they decide to do is always the correct decision.
That said, I think that the Saints have a solid replacement on the player selection side of GM decisions with Jeff Ireland as evidenced by the strong drafts the Saints have had since he's been with the team. Payton doesn't make those decisions any longer and Loomis remains the glorified accountant.

Loomis is but the glue that holds the front office together. Khai Hartley is the true wizard behind the brilliant bookkeeping. Ireland definitely does a great job with the college personnel division, as well. Michael Parenton will be moving into his second year as head of pro personnel.

vpheughan · 01-06-2023, 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

Loomis is but the glue that holds the front office together. Khai Hartley is the true wizard behind the brilliant bookkeeping. Ireland definitely does a great job with the college personnel division, as well. Michael Parenton will be moving into his second year as head of pro personnel.

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BakoSaint · 01-07-2023, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

Loomis is but the glue that holds the front office together. Khai Hartley is the true wizard behind the brilliant bookkeeping. Ireland definitely does a great job with the college personnel division, as well. Michael Parenton will be moving into his second year as head of pro personnel.

In that case Loomis is the glue that holds dysfunction together and enables terrible mistakes that hold us back from a great legacy. Our bookkeeping is not brilliant it is a reckless disaster. It does not take a PhD in Neurorocketry to realize you can take an existing long term contract and restructure it to add two voidable years, convert the upcoming years salary to a bonus, and prorate that and other bonuses over the length of the contract including the voidable years, thus pushing lots of IOU's back to later years. And of course players will usually agree because often the salary and bonuses they agree to extend were not guaranteed originally and would be paid later, but as bonuses they get the cash in hand guaranteed today. And then the same thing can be done to the next years salary forever, and its always cheaper in the short term to push the money forward than to cut ties, only you keep paying forever.

Our bookkeeping strategy is not brilliant and there is no GM or human or animal mascot in the league that does not know this can be done. Instead, there are sound fundamental reasons no other team takes this strategy as far as we do or uses it as long as we do. The biggest reason is that you totally give up roster flexibility. Every day other teams make hard decisions and cut players whose contracts have proved a bust. The Falcons got rid of Julio Jones and Matt Ryan at just the right time for their statistical declines. Players like Carson Wentz and Nick Foles have been unloaded over and over. But because we backload so much money, any contract bust for us is a giant cap hit even late in their contract because we backload over and over. And since we have so many backloaded contracts we always lead the league in the amount we are over the upcoming cap. Some of our players could be cut with less cap hit than Matt Ryan, though still a lot. But since we are so far over the cap, we can't even take those hits. We become trapped in tons of bad contracts that every other team in the league would cut.

This pattern of being trapped in bad contracts causes more damage for several reasons. For one, by being among our highest paid players, guys like Andrus Peat and Michael Thomas become roll models for our younger players, and the message they send is that giving 50% is enough, just keep up with the limping guy and you are a star. Second, even our stars know they can slack off or get into a bar fight or become a primaddona on social media or whatever and not risk a cut, because we are the one team that can't afford to cut anyone. Also, since we can't cut busts with big contacts we have to play them, because it would look bad for the GM if Andrus Peat was making $15 million a year as the backup and there would be calls to cut him that the team could not afford. So guys like Peat must start. So that creates a predicament that we can't risk drafting extra guards in the mid rounds who might outplay Peat for much less money and create an unsolvable problem for management. So, we have to trade away most of our draft picks so that our overpaid busts don't have threats to their jobs that could create a problem for management. Don't be surprised if some long term contract dispute or personality conflict comes up where we suddenly trade away Olave or Shaheed for cheap because we can't afford to cut Michael Thomas but management can't afford to lose face by benching him.

So managing the cap the way Hartley and Loomis do is not brilliant. It is short sighted and dumb. Other teams avoid it whenever possible because they know it destroys roster flexibility which destroys accountability. Also it keeps us perpetually broke and causes us to be unable to retain solid players like Hendrickson and Williams while we keep paying guys like Thomas and Peat year after year. Also the voidable years hurt us with compensatory picks, as the contracts will be voided and the players will be treated as cuts when their contracts expire, guaranteeing us no compensation if they do find a market.

Jeff Ireland makes some good draft picks. He could do better if he had more draft picks and more money to retain the ones who perform well and cut them when they stop performing well. But he doesn't, because Loomis is an enabler and Hartley and Loomis are brilliant at keeping us in perpetual debt paying guys like Peat $15 million a year forever. If you can't take out the trash, your house becomes the dump. Loomis has us throwing out the kids to make room for trash. We call Loomis an Hartley wizards, we might as well call Samuel Bankman Fried and Caroline Ellison wizards for their work with FTX crypto exchange. They are wizards at accruing debt and painting themselves into a corner.

Rugby Saint II · 01-14-2023, 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

Loomis is but the glue that holds the front office together. Khai Hartley is the true wizard behind the brilliant bookkeeping. Ireland definitely does a great job with the college personnel division, as well. Michael Parenton will be moving into his second year as head of pro personnel.

I wonder how many of those names you mentioned Sean Payton will take with him? My biggest fear is that he will take away our most valuable recruiting asset, Jeff Ireland.

dizzle88 · 01-14-2023, 05:55 PM

I wouldn't call the bookkeeping "brilliant" when we lose impactful players that we drafted and just kick the cap situation down the road consistently.

Sinner · 01-14-2023, 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by dizzle88

I wouldn't call the bookkeeping "brilliant" when we lose impactful players that we drafted and just kick the cap situation down the road consistently.

It's "brilliant" if one enjoys getting that can kicked down the road and directly into the forehead. Repeatedly.

AsylumGuido · 01-14-2023, 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by dizzle88

I wouldn't call the bookkeeping "brilliant" when we lose impactful players that we drafted and just kick the cap situation down the road consistently.

We have always had the cap available to keep any player we let go. They were let go solely because they wanted more than the Saints wanted to pay. Big difference.

01-05-2023, 03:53 PM	#31
Sinner 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 3,875	Re: We Haven’t Beat A Stable Established QB Originally Posted by BakoSaint 17 years ago Mickey Loomis and Tom Benson interviewed Sean Payton and hired him. Then a few months later Sean Payton, Mickey Loomis, and Tom Benson took a shot on a badly injured Drew Brees after the Dolphins passed on him. Payton and Brees led new Orleans to a great record from 2006-2020. Mickey Loomis was an accountant who was in a room where some good decisions happened 17 years ago. He is best known for his skill at borrowing money to win now in exchange for debt that he has to borrow money just to cancel out and try to break even in the future, at the expense of roster flexibility to move on from players who no longer fit the system or can't stay healthy. Since Payton and Brees left, all Loomis knows it to do Loomis which is borrowing and borrowing and borrowing and destroying our roster flexibility and that does not work when you no longer have Payton and Brees. 17 years is a long time. In the time that Mickey Loomis was GM of the Saints, Jerry Reese became GM of the New York Giants, won two Super Bowls over Tom Brady with coaching and scouting experience, declined, and was let go. Reese is younger than Loomis and more successful but can't find a job because for some reason he is not enough like a son to any owner like Loomis is. Lots of GM's were great and then 17 years later were not great. Al Davis was one of the best GM's in league history if he has just not tried to keep doing it forever. We can't let our pre-Loomis record impact our decisions moving forward. It is not relevent. We can't let past failure become an excuse to accept present mediocrity or it will lead to future failure. We let go the first coach who led us to the playoffs. Soon after we had a new coach and won our first playoff game. Then we let go of that coach and GM and we won a super bowl. Now that coach left and that GM is washed. The trend is that we have moved forward only by letting go of the past. Hanging onto 2009 out of fear of 1980 is what will get us back to 1980 not 2009. With a new regime we can win multiple Super Bowls because our fans are our greatest asset not a geriatric accountant. ^^^ THIS.
Sinner 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 3,875

01-05-2023, 04:01 PM	#32
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,220	Re: We Haven’t Beat A Stable Established QB More white noise.

01-05-2023, 04:30 PM	#33
iceshack149 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Fairbanks, AK Posts: 4,258 Blog Entries: 1	Re: We Haven’t Beat A Stable Established QB Originally Posted by BakoSaint 17 years ago Mickey Loomis and Tom Benson interviewed Sean Payton and hired him. Then a few months later Sean Payton, Mickey Loomis, and Tom Benson took a shot on a badly injured Drew Brees after the Dolphins passed on him. Payton and Brees led new Orleans to a great record from 2006-2020. Mickey Loomis was an accountant who was in a room where some good decisions happened 17 years ago. He is best known for his skill at borrowing money to win now in exchange for debt that he has to borrow money just to cancel out and try to break even in the future, at the expense of roster flexibility to move on from players who no longer fit the system or can't stay healthy. Since Payton and Brees left, all Loomis knows it to do Loomis which is borrowing and borrowing and borrowing and destroying our roster flexibility and that does not work when you no longer have Payton and Brees. 17 years is a long time. In the time that Mickey Loomis was GM of the Saints, Jerry Reese became GM of the New York Giants, won two Super Bowls over Tom Brady with coaching and scouting experience, declined, and was let go. Reese is younger than Loomis and more successful but can't find a job because for some reason he is not enough like a son to any owner like Loomis is. Lots of GM's were great and then 17 years later were not great. Al Davis was one of the best GM's in league history if he has just not tried to keep doing it forever. We can't let our pre-Loomis record impact our decisions moving forward. It is not relevent. We can't let past failure become an excuse to accept present mediocrity or it will lead to future failure. We let go the first coach who led us to the playoffs. Soon after we had a new coach and won our first playoff game. Then we let go of that coach and GM and we won a super bowl. Now that coach left and that GM is washed. The trend is that we have moved forward only by letting go of the past. Hanging onto 2009 out of fear of 1980 is what will get us back to 1980 not 2009. With a new regime we can win multiple Super Bowls because our fans are our greatest asset not a geriatric accountant. I appreciate differing perspectives from the norm, which I think BakoSaint's post is. Many fans (we know a few on this board) think that the Saints management knows better than any of us so whatever they decide to do is always the correct decision. That said, I think that the Saints have a solid replacement on the player selection side of GM decisions with Jeff Ireland as evidenced by the strong drafts the Saints have had since he's been with the team. Payton doesn't make those decisions any longer and Loomis remains the glorified accountant. leilung, AsylumGuido and Sinner like this.

01-05-2023, 04:35 PM	#34
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,220	Re: We Haven’t Beat A Stable Established QB Originally Posted by iceshack149 I appreciate differing perspectives from the norm, which I think BakoSaint's post is. Many fans (we know a few on this board) think that the Saints management knows better than any of us so whatever they decide to do is always the correct decision. That said, I think that the Saints have a solid replacement on the player selection side of GM decisions with Jeff Ireland as evidenced by the strong drafts the Saints have had since he's been with the team. Payton doesn't make those decisions any longer and Loomis remains the glorified accountant. Loomis is but the glue that holds the front office together. Khai Hartley is the true wizard behind the brilliant bookkeeping. Ireland definitely does a great job with the college personnel division, as well. Michael Parenton will be moving into his second year as head of pro personnel.

01-06-2023, 09:07 AM	#35
vpheughan 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,520	Re: We Haven’t Beat A Stable Established QB Originally Posted by AsylumGuido Loomis is but the glue that holds the front office together. Khai Hartley is the true wizard behind the brilliant bookkeeping. Ireland definitely does a great job with the college personnel division, as well. Michael Parenton will be moving into his second year as head of pro personnel.
vpheughan 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,520

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01-07-2023, 12:27 PM	#36
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,135	Re: We Haven’t Beat A Stable Established QB Originally Posted by AsylumGuido Loomis is but the glue that holds the front office together. Khai Hartley is the true wizard behind the brilliant bookkeeping. Ireland definitely does a great job with the college personnel division, as well. Michael Parenton will be moving into his second year as head of pro personnel. In that case Loomis is the glue that holds dysfunction together and enables terrible mistakes that hold us back from a great legacy. Our bookkeeping is not brilliant it is a reckless disaster. It does not take a PhD in Neurorocketry to realize you can take an existing long term contract and restructure it to add two voidable years, convert the upcoming years salary to a bonus, and prorate that and other bonuses over the length of the contract including the voidable years, thus pushing lots of IOU's back to later years. And of course players will usually agree because often the salary and bonuses they agree to extend were not guaranteed originally and would be paid later, but as bonuses they get the cash in hand guaranteed today. And then the same thing can be done to the next years salary forever, and its always cheaper in the short term to push the money forward than to cut ties, only you keep paying forever. Our bookkeeping strategy is not brilliant and there is no GM or human or animal mascot in the league that does not know this can be done. Instead, there are sound fundamental reasons no other team takes this strategy as far as we do or uses it as long as we do. The biggest reason is that you totally give up roster flexibility. Every day other teams make hard decisions and cut players whose contracts have proved a bust. The Falcons got rid of Julio Jones and Matt Ryan at just the right time for their statistical declines. Players like Carson Wentz and Nick Foles have been unloaded over and over. But because we backload so much money, any contract bust for us is a giant cap hit even late in their contract because we backload over and over. And since we have so many backloaded contracts we always lead the league in the amount we are over the upcoming cap. Some of our players could be cut with less cap hit than Matt Ryan, though still a lot. But since we are so far over the cap, we can't even take those hits. We become trapped in tons of bad contracts that every other team in the league would cut. This pattern of being trapped in bad contracts causes more damage for several reasons. For one, by being among our highest paid players, guys like Andrus Peat and Michael Thomas become roll models for our younger players, and the message they send is that giving 50% is enough, just keep up with the limping guy and you are a star. Second, even our stars know they can slack off or get into a bar fight or become a primaddona on social media or whatever and not risk a cut, because we are the one team that can't afford to cut anyone. Also, since we can't cut busts with big contacts we have to play them, because it would look bad for the GM if Andrus Peat was making $15 million a year as the backup and there would be calls to cut him that the team could not afford. So guys like Peat must start. So that creates a predicament that we can't risk drafting extra guards in the mid rounds who might outplay Peat for much less money and create an unsolvable problem for management. So, we have to trade away most of our draft picks so that our overpaid busts don't have threats to their jobs that could create a problem for management. Don't be surprised if some long term contract dispute or personality conflict comes up where we suddenly trade away Olave or Shaheed for cheap because we can't afford to cut Michael Thomas but management can't afford to lose face by benching him. So managing the cap the way Hartley and Loomis do is not brilliant. It is short sighted and dumb. Other teams avoid it whenever possible because they know it destroys roster flexibility which destroys accountability. Also it keeps us perpetually broke and causes us to be unable to retain solid players like Hendrickson and Williams while we keep paying guys like Thomas and Peat year after year. Also the voidable years hurt us with compensatory picks, as the contracts will be voided and the players will be treated as cuts when their contracts expire, guaranteeing us no compensation if they do find a market. Jeff Ireland makes some good draft picks. He could do better if he had more draft picks and more money to retain the ones who perform well and cut them when they stop performing well. But he doesn't, because Loomis is an enabler and Hartley and Loomis are brilliant at keeping us in perpetual debt paying guys like Peat $15 million a year forever. If you can't take out the trash, your house becomes the dump. Loomis has us throwing out the kids to make room for trash. We call Loomis an Hartley wizards, we might as well call Samuel Bankman Fried and Caroline Ellison wizards for their work with FTX crypto exchange. They are wizards at accruing debt and painting themselves into a corner. Sinner likes this.
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,135

01-14-2023, 05:40 PM	#37
Rugby Saint II Bounty Money $$$ Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 5800 Airline Dr. Metairie, LA. Posts: 24,052	Re: We Haven’t Beat A Stable Established QB Originally Posted by AsylumGuido Loomis is but the glue that holds the front office together. Khai Hartley is the true wizard behind the brilliant bookkeeping. Ireland definitely does a great job with the college personnel division, as well. Michael Parenton will be moving into his second year as head of pro personnel. I wonder how many of those names you mentioned Sean Payton will take with him? My biggest fear is that he will take away our most valuable recruiting asset, Jeff Ireland.

01-14-2023, 05:55 PM	#38
dizzle88 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 11,208	Re: We Haven’t Beat A Stable Established QB I wouldn't call the bookkeeping "brilliant" when we lose impactful players that we drafted and just kick the cap situation down the road consistently. Sinner likes this.

01-14-2023, 06:03 PM	#39
Sinner 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 3,875	Re: We Haven’t Beat A Stable Established QB Originally Posted by dizzle88 I wouldn't call the bookkeeping "brilliant" when we lose impactful players that we drafted and just kick the cap situation down the road consistently. It's "brilliant" if one enjoys getting that can kicked down the road and directly into the forehead. Repeatedly. dizzle88 and K Major like this.
Sinner 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 3,875

01-14-2023, 06:31 PM	#40
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,220	Re: We Haven’t Beat A Stable Established QB Originally Posted by dizzle88 I wouldn't call the bookkeeping "brilliant" when we lose impactful players that we drafted and just kick the cap situation down the road consistently. We have always had the cap available to keep any player we let go. They were let go solely because they wanted more than the Saints wanted to pay. Big difference.